Eddard Stark did not die because he was naive and overly honorable

[Hellswung]

More than anything his downfall was not telling Robert at all. Had he done so before telling Cerei Robert would likely be alive and the Lannister's power would be broken. Had he told Robert on his death bed, he would have likely gotten Selmy on Ned's side and named someone more able to win and hold the throne than Stannis as heir to the throne(likely either Edric Storm, Renly, or even Ned himself). So in that regard rather than his naivety and honor bring him down, it was his mercy (telling Cersei to try and spare her children) and sentimentality that killed him.

Just one little flaw I'd like to point out, with Robert's temper, he would have angered first, then likely expired more quickly, while Ned had no solid proof yet to convince the onlookers.

[The hairy bear]

Well, to answer your quote in a simple manner, Ned died, his family died or captured, his house is in ruin and the entire North suffered a huge blow.

(...)So, start thinking on bigger things, such as the integrity of the North for starters.

The North Remembers. Maintaining the integrity of the North is not only a matter of self-defense, but also defending the principles and the morals of the First Men.

Plus, you accuse Ned of things that not his responsibility at all. If you want, blame him on his fate, Sansa's and Arya's. Everything that happens later derives from the decisions of Robb and the lords who crowned him.

The court, is NOT a place for honor.

It could have been, and it's commendable to actually try to make it so.

Expecting results from a blind King is simply not gonna cut it in the court they are in. This is game theory in short. They cheat, you cheat, or you loss. Treat them in kind as they would treat you.

I'll repeat it again. Eddard was very close to winning. He could have won.

And the prisoner's dilemma does not apply to the King or his Hand. They cheat and you can prove it, you strip them of their titles and send them to the Wall.

Finally, how is Cersei's plan stupid? Did you read the book? Varys said, if not the boar, then an unlucky fall from the horse, or a stray arrow, the hunt is a dangerous business, one way or another the King is not getting out of the forest alive. It was Ned's mercy that killed Robert.

Of course Cersei would have tried to kill Robert. But her options were really small, with Robert surrounded by the kingsguard, loyal men, and witnesses. Her most valuable agent was a sixteen year old boy. She had to plan everything from King's Landing, and every message that she read was a huge risk for her life.

With every move she riske being discovered. Besides, it would have not caused the same effect if Robert had been blatantly murdered.

[Hellswung]

There is also another point you lords and ladies need remembering.

There is a distinct difference between honor and INADEQUACY.

Understanding your enemies and act in ways in accordance to your codes is HONOR.

Failing to understand or your enemies or see dangers in general is INADEQUACY.

There is a big difference between the two. Just because Ned died does not mean he was honorable. It could mean he is just inadquate. One does not rule out the other.

For example, right from the star he could of done a few things:

1) LF dwells in the matters of coin, where the Lannisters excell. Plus LF's exotic qualities making him favorable to highborn nobles such as the queen, he should of suspected a loyalty right there, which would probably save his life later;

2) with the Lannisters plotting for power, he should be on guard, which means, like many pointed out, immediately taking control of City Watch, and post extra squires and servants for the king. That attempt on Bran's life should of been a HUGE warning, the gloves are coming off, hello?;

3) make better use of Varys, because Cersei is too proud to consider Varys as equal, and everyone else is wary of him;

4) Jon Arryn is likely murdered, the King is surrounded by killers and murderers. I am practically friendless, and oh, I just uncovered a gigantic secret that the Lannisters are willing to kill my kid to protect. Do you think I should of, like, I don't know, maybe arranged my own kids' safety escape, before, like, warn my enemy about her kids? You think I ought to hold out my tongue a little longer? ESPECIALLY when Casterly Rock JUST mastered a friggin army? Timing, anyone?

5) not establishing contact with Stannis is another failure, probably a fatal one. As Hand, he could just summoned him;

6) before confronting the Queen, she had not turned tail and ran like I told her to, and the realm owes the Lannisters millions of gold, with LF to profit from it, geez, I wonder, what are they plotting?

7) my wife did something stupid. She captured a Lannister, the WRONG one and gave Casterly Rock an excuse for war. Ouch, shouldn't I try to diffuse the situation? What's the worth of an imp compared to the ambition of the Lannisters overall? And come on, lets face it. The imp was still a minor player by then, IF someone from the Lannisters planned the attempt on Bran's life, it had to be from the major players. Until I have evidence of that, do you think I should just keep my mouth shut and stop crying a river to Robert? Maybe, I should like say my apologies to the Queen and his brother then try to bring Tyrionn back to KL?

Because with Tyrionn tried at King's court, LF has to testify about the daggers' origin will, then LF will have to find some other way to cover up his lies. Right? Casterly Rock will have to call off its banners, right?

8) now that I am the Hand to the King and had his ears, do you think I should first resolve the situation with the vacant Warden of the East? This is, in fact, big decision affecting the well-being of the realm, right? I think maybe I should appoint someone I trust as Regent until lil Robert come of age, right?

These, and a number of other possible things he could do, WITHOUT undermining his honor codes.

The point is, ladies and gentlemen, he COULD BE honorable without killing any children or backstabbing anyone. That is food for thought.

[The hairy bear]

There is a distinct difference between honor and INADEQUACY.

Understanding your enemies and act in ways in accordance to your codes is HONOR.

Failing to understand or your enemies or see dangers in general is INADEQUACY.

Understanding your enemies has absolutely nothing to do with honor. Read a definition. You are mixing things here.

That Eddard had no honor, or that he was stupid, are plain falseholds. It's certainly fair to say that he was inadequate, although I'm not sure if Robert had much more beter options.

As per some of your suggestions:

2) with the Lannisters plotting for power, he should be on guard, which means, like many pointed out, immediately taking control of City Watch, and post extra squires and servants for the king. That attempt on Bran's life should of been a HUGE warning, the gloves are coming off, hello?;

Eddard was on guard. One of the first things he noticed is that Eddard was surrounded by Lannisters, and he didn't like it a bit. But the Hand alone can't replace the King's squires. And even with the king's consent, the Lannisters can't be dismissed without creating a huge PR problem. Ned needs to find evidence supporting that the Lannisters are not to be trusted, and that's what he does.

3) make better use of Varys, because Cersei is too proud to consider Varys as equal, and everyone else is wary of him;

So your big solution to Ned's problems is trusting Varys? The same guy who is actively plotting the downfall of Robert Baratheon since the very day he came to the throne? The one who kills the hands that succeed in estabilizing the realm?

Well, I seem to recall that Eddard trusted Varys twice. The first time when he confirmed Littlefinger's lie about the origin of the Valyrian dagger. The second time, Ned agreed to confess in exchange of Sansa's suffering no harm and being allowed to take the black. Trusting Varys didn't go so well for him.

1) LF dwells in the matters of coin, where the Lannisters excell. Plus LF's exotic qualities making him favorable to highborn nobles such as the queen, he should of suspected a loyalty right there, which would probably save his life later;

Eddard is just as highborn as the queen and, if anything, LF was the best option for an ally in the council. Barristan, Varys and Pycelle came from Aerys, Stannis was away, and Renly was an unreliable 20 year old. While LF was a childhood friend of the Tullys, and had been personally appointed by Jon Arryn.

[Knight Of Winter]

Well, I seem to recall that Eddard trusted Varys twice. The first time when he confirmed Littlefinger's lie about the origin of the Valyrian dagger. The second time, Ned agreed to confess in exchange of Sansa's suffering no harm and being allowed to take the black. Trusting Varys didn't go so well for him.

Can you remind me when did the bolded part happen? AFAIK, Ned kept on trusting and relying on Littlefinger right until he was betrayed and believed his story about dagger. :dunno:

[Wanderer]

Doubtless, wolves make poor snakes. Of that I am glad. And so is the North.

[Hellswung]

What happened afterwards is directly resulted from Ned's death.

If he didn't lose the play against Cersei, his son wouldn't have needed to start a war the North WASN'T READY FOR. Like I said, the North had traitors amongst their ranks easily exploited by the Lannisters and they would lose at a war or attrition. Therefore, Robb being so young and inexperienced had to race against clock, which lead to series of bad decisions that ultimately cost him his life.

One thing led to another, if Ned is man enough, he ought to admit it is his fault to begin with.

Also defending the principles of the First man is just a flowery excuse for inadequacy. Ned could very well take things under controller without violating principles.

This court is without honor, could of being or being the single player with honor does not change the fact it is without honor. He may change the rules if he is strong enough to change the game. Until then, it is either adapt or stay away.

As for Ned is very close to winning, small chance that. He STUMBLED upon the truth. Their daughters blurted it out while fighting and he realized it then, otherwise he'd be still in the dark. This is a small probability event, while his opponents methodically planned and organized, brewed their strength over the years.

Anyways, the very fact that Ned stumbled upon something that could help him turn the tide, AND HIS FAILURE TO TURN IT INTO HIS ADVANTAGE, showed again he is very clumsy at the game of throne.

If he told Robert, he might still spare the children's life, because he has the King's ears. Yet all he could think of is "the childrens' lives", and made his move around that, blisssfully unprepared as to how the Queen might retaliate.

Ayways, you know, being honorable and being ADEQUATE are two different things. One does not rule out the other. There are still A HUMONGOUS number of things he can do right without violating his honor.

Lastly, a number of kings guards work for the Lannisters, if you care to remember, meaning, the King is certainly NOT getting out of the woods alive.

The North Remembers. Maintaining the integrity of the North is not only a matter of self-defense, but also defending the principles and the morals of the First Men.

Plus, you accuse Ned of things that not his responsibility at all. If you want, blame him on his fate, Sansa's and Arya's. Everything that happens later derives from the decisions of Robb and the lords who crowned him.

It could have been, and it's commendable to actually try to make it so.

I'll repeat it again. Eddard was very close to winning. He could have won.

And the prisoner's dilemma does not apply to the King or his Hand. They cheat and you can prove it, you strip them of their titles and send them to the Wall.

Of course Cersei would have tried to kill Robert. But her options were really small, with Robert surrounded by the kingsguard, loyal men, and witnesses. Her most valuable agent was a sixteen year old boy. She had to plan everything from King's Landing, and every message that she read was a huge risk for her life.

With every move she riske being discovered. Besides, it would have not caused the same effect if Robert had been blatantly murdered.

[Biglose]

@Hellswung

Also defending the principles of the First man is just a flowery excuse for inadequacy. Ned could very well take things under controller without violating principles.

I call bull on that.

This court is without honor, could of being or being the single player with honor does not change the fact it is without honor. He may change the rules if he is strong enough to change the game. Until then, it is either adapt or stay away.

Thats nothing but an excuse. You can justify any atrocity with it.

As for Ned is very close to winning, small chance that. He STUMBLED upon the truth. Their daughters blurted it out while fighting and he realized it then, otherwise he'd be still in the dark. This is a small probability event, while his opponents methodically planned and organized, brewed their strength over the years.

Well, it depends. But mostly that is not really relevant. The point is, that he is one year too early.

If he told Robert, he might still spare the children's life, because he has the King's ears. Yet all he could think of is "the childrens' lives", and made his move around that, blisssfully unprepared as to how the Queen might retaliate.

An other excuse, because honestly it is silly. So he tells Robert not to smash the heads of the children against the wall, Robert smashes the heads of the children against the wall, ah well, Ned could tell himself he tried...

Ayways, you know, being honorable and being ADEQUATE are two different things. One does not rule out the other. There are still A HUMONGOUS number of things he can do right without violating his honor.

Not always but often. If you are undercover with some really bad people, you will end up dead if you hold up "traditional honor".

Lastly, a number of kings guards work for the Lannisters, if you care to remember, meaning, the King is certainly NOT getting out of the woods alive.

What Ned totally faild to see (and could not) is that there were people plotting the annihilation of the Royal families. For that it would not have been enough to just kill Cercai and the children. The Lannisters would have recovered! Look at what he achieved, he turned the North against the lannisters and he turned the barethions against them. And it is not just a minor disagreement, it is all out total war. He removed EVERYBODY on the Lannister side with any strategic thinking.

This pit is so deep even after generations (if they do not get wiped out) they have no chance of getting out of it. There are a multible possibilities for the Starks to raise again but the Lannisters are done.

I think Varys is plotting nothing short of genocide in order to bring stability and enable the Targs. And Littlefinger takes it one step further and is planning the apocalypse.

[Hellswung]

@Hellswung

I call bull on that.

And I call bull on that.

[Biglose]

Honestly, all you are saying is that Ned could have acted with honor as long as he did not really think about the consequences.

Thats like saying: There is nothing wrong with beeing honest to the nice SS-Officer, because telling the truth is honorful. Just do not think about what happens after.

Of course acting with honor or acting morally is very, very easy if you just ignore facts, which would compell you to act differently.

[Northern light]

Although I disagree with alot in Maia's post I do think she point out Ned's biggest failing IMO. Namely this:

"Despite multiple direct warnings by LF himself (!) Ned didn't just expect his help, but demanded that LF destroy everything that he had achieved in life, to enable a cause that LF himself didn't believe in and considered disastrous - namely, enthronement of Stannis.

This goes far beyond what could have been realistically counted on even from a true friend - and Ned disdained and distrusted LF the whole way and didn't bother to hide it. In fact, would Ned himself support a cause, where if he succeded, he'd lose everything that he held dear?

But Ned never thinks beyond the fact that he himself would be glad to lose his court position and go home to his domain and his family. Never considering what it would be like for LF, who had nothing to return to."

He was lousy (or didnt care) to judge peoples motivation, which is opposite to LF who is an expert in that area.

[Hellswung]

Honestly, all you are saying is that Ned could have acted with honor as long as he did not really think about the consequences.

Thats like saying: There is nothing wrong with beeing honest to the nice SS-Officer, because telling the truth is honorful. Just do not think about what happens after.

Of course acting with honor or acting morally is very, very easy if you just ignore facts, which would compell you to act differently.

Of all the posts here, yours is the most ambiguous by far. I strongly agree your "Of course acting with honor or acting morally is very, very easy if you just ignore facts, which would compell you to act differently." Yet we don't seem to agree with one another.

All I am saying is, honor had very little to do with Ned being killed. Refusing to understand his enemies and the other players killed him. Having a wrong approach killed him. Lack of foresight and hindsight killed him. Generally failing to act while he should of killed him.

So in short, he was a very lousy and clumsy player. This doesn't necessarily involve honor.

[Biglose]

Well, i see it more llike he failed because of being honorful and because of things he couldn't have known. It's not like he had much choice with LF and not acting sooner he again didn't because of respect for rob and honor. Buf more to the point I think the only ways he would have survived would have been going to rob asap or leaving rob to die alone. Every other way meant doom. Sure not every mistake he made was due to honor, but even without those he would have been doomed.

[Masamune]

No, he pretty much did die out of naivety.

Your argument backfires on itself, as trusting LF in the first place was a foolish move. He has no reason to trust LF based purely on Catelyn's relationship with him - which wasn't exactly a bed of roses given LF's history with the Starks. What about Ned trusting his own judgement? He already knows LF is a man of questionable character when LF lied about the brothel incident with Jaime. LF also makes it very clear that he has no wish to support Stannis' claim to the throne, but Ned insists on trusting LF with the single greatest political gamble of his life.

Also, telling Cersei his plan in Bond-villain style was all kinds of dumb.

[Hellswung]

Well, i see it more llike he failed because of being honorful and because of things he couldn't have known. It's not like he had much choice with LF and not acting sooner he again didn't because of respect for rob and honor. Buf more to the point I think the only ways he would have survived would have been going to rob asap or leaving rob to die alone. Every other way meant doom. Sure not every mistake he made was due to honor, but even without those he would have been doomed.

I see, therein lies our differences.

For starters, he should take control of City Watch ASAP while he had the chance. And as for "not acting sooner", there is another choice, he could have sat on it a little longer and not tell Cersei. Or, he could of made better preparations.

These, among other things.

[Hellswung]

No, he pretty much did die out of naivety.

Your argument backfires on itself, as trusting LF in the first place was a foolish move. He has no reason to trust LF based purely on Catelyn's relationship with him - which wasn't exactly a bed of roses given LF's history with the Starks. What about Ned trusting his own judgement? He already knows LF is a man of questionable character when LF lied about the brothel incident with Jaime. LF also makes it very clear that he has no wish to support Stannis' claim to the throne, but Ned insists on trusting LF with the single greatest political gamble of his life.

Also, telling Cersei his plan in Bond-villain style was all kinds of dumb.

Exactly, that, and the fact that LF had to arrange financial matters between the Realm and the Lannisters. A wise Hand would of been aware of that. I can imagine a lot of favors involved in the transactions over the years.

Edit: Oh, and btw, don't forget LF runs whore houses too. No doubt he accumulated many secrets from the Lords and officers he served over the years. Now does that seem like a man who would have Stannis favors?

[Biglose]

The point remains: WHAT ELSE TO DO?

1. Directly go to Robert<->honor (because of dead children)

2. When Robert is wounded take his children and run for the hills and proclaim Stannis the true King from behind the walls of Winterfell (again leaving your friend to die and not granting his last wish...)

The point is, that when he trusted LF it did not matter anyway. What else could he have done? Nothing, thats what.

His only ways out would be either to but innocent children in harms way, to disrespect a friend on his deathbed or to flee.

Again nothing of those would be in any way honorful.

[Masamune]

The point remains: WHAT ELSE TO DO?

1. Directly go to Robert<->honor (because of dead children)

2. When Robert is wounded take his children and run for the hills and proclaim Stannis the true King from behind the walls of Winterfell (again leaving your friend to die and not granting his last wish...)

The point is, that when he trusted LF it did not matter anyway. What else could he have done? Nothing, thats what.

His only ways out would be either to but innocent children in harms way, to disrespect a friend on his deathbed or to flee.

Again nothing of those would be in any way honorful.

Gather his daughters and take the first exit out of King's Landing, as was his original plan. Let the Baratheons & Lannisters fight among themselves for the crown. Ned should've trusted his instincts when he first suspected he wasn't cut out for the 'game of thrones'. If your only option is trusting LF then you might as well leave the table.

[Hellswung]

Gather his daughters and take the first exit out of King's Landing, as was his original plan. Let the Baratheons &amp; Lannisters fight among themselves for the crown. Ned should've trusted his instincts when he first suspected he wasn't cut out for the 'game of thrones'. If your only option is trusting LF then you might as well leave the table.

Yes, that, or bid time and make better preparations for the storm to come. For all we knew, it was stated in the book that Ned warning expediated their plot on Robert's life. He didn't HAVE TO tell Cersei, certainly didn't have to tell her before he had the control of the situation. I don't understand how some people refuse to admit that there are better alternatives to what Ned did.

[Hellswung]

2. When Robert is wounded take his children and run for the hills and proclaim Stannis the true King from behind the walls of Winterfell (again leaving your friend to die and not granting his wish.

Stannis is the rightful heir. This is not contradictory to Robert's last wish.

And he didn't HAVE TO trust LF.