Sansa_Stark Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I'm just being snarky .... don't take me too seriously :DI think Stannis is a great character, but I didn't really think so until some people pointed out aspects I myself missed on my first read.I still think he's got a lot of blind spots, but then again, that's conducive to being a great character, so I'm ok with it.ok honestly, LF might have some unique skills in the realm regarding finance, but he isn't omniscient, and he definitely isn't omnibenevolent (or even partially benevolent, however the f*** you say that) so how exactly is he an engine for change? In fact he is well aware of the fact that his moneylending is creating a finance bubble, but he prefers chaos to using his knowledge to restore infrastructure and peace.In fact, I'd argue on the order-morality scale, he's chaotic evil.No. Gregor Clegane is chaotic evil.Littlefinger is lawful evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brAnthelAstgreenseer Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 is there a term yet for when a thread goes off the rails and becomes another stannis thread? stannjacking?stannjacking :lol:But ii think Stannis is the character about whom the opinion has changed the most .So it was only a matter of time before it became a Stannis thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 SnipAre you really arguing about lf in this excellent thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Illidan Stormrage Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Tywin was a good Hand under Aerys during peacetime in a pretty stable context. He's good at maintaining a status quo, which goes precisely against your next assertion that you "dislike the most is the lack of change and development in Westeros." As i said Tywin is the best(for me) among the "normal" rulers who will just do as has been done - Petyr is a man who will change. Nothing goes against my assertion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Illidan Stormrage Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Are you really arguing about lf in this excellent thread?I claim this tread in the name of Littlefinger! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbstark Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 No. Gregor Clegane is chaotic evil.Littlefinger is lawful evil.but he doesn't obey the laws! he bends them at best.... helping Sansa escape is the first thing that comes to mind. He creates quite a bit of chaos, how can you argue against that? Also, why can't there be two characters that are chaotic evil? Tywin is lawful evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I'm just being snarky .... don't take me too seriously :DI think Stannis is a great character, but I didn't really think so until some people pointed out aspects I myself missed on my first read.I still think he's got a lot of blind spots, but then again, that's conducive to being a great character, so I'm ok with it.Well I wouldn't say a lot, but he definetly has a few. I feel his good far outweighs any bad and he's best suited to rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I claim this tread in the name of Littlefinger!Lol yeah ok brah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbstark Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Well I wouldn't say a lot, but he definetly has a few. I feel his good far outweighs any bad and he's best suited to rule.yep, I got that impression from reading your posts.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 but he doesn't obey the laws! he bends them at best....helping Sansa escape is the first thing that comes to mind. He creates quite a bit of chaos, how can you argue against that?Also, why can't there be two characters that are chaotic evil? Tywin is lawful evil.Why can't there be two lawful evils? Ramsay Bolton is another chaotic one.Tywin bends the laws when he sees fit too. He sent fake Arya up north to control it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Illidan Stormrage Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Do you think too much is needed for a country to progress? The merchant class is the driving force of progress - merchants and banker created the Reneissance. Littlefinger is a merchant and a banker and he also respect merchants and helps them (as seen in the Vale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Do you think too much is needed for a country to progress? The merchant class is the driving force of progress - merchants and banker created the Reneissance. Littlefinger is a merchant and a banker and he also respect merchants and helps them (as seen in the Vale.He pulls men from that class because they have no house loyalties that might override their obligations to him. jesus christ, seeing you talk about Pissant, you'd think he was unionizing labor or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 yep, I got that impression from reading your posts....Oh I was just making sure. so many people don't even know I like stannis and when I tell them they are always surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagganaro Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 That's kind of like saying a heaping bucket of shit is a good way to cover up the smell of a rotting corpse.LF isn't staging some sort of revolution or motivated on behalf of everyone not fortunate enough to be high born. This is all a bizarre form of masturbation for him.Pretty much this. I don't see where, how, or why LF could possibly be seen as staging anything that benefits anyone but himself. He's not beginning some kind of social change or governmental shift, he's using despicable tactics to try and win within the system he himself is very much a part of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 but he doesn't obey the laws! he bends them at best.... helping Sansa escape is the first thing that comes to mind. He creates quite a bit of chaos, how can you argue against that? Also, why can't there be two characters that are chaotic evil? Tywin is lawful evil.I would say Tywin and Joff are lawful evil, LF is neutral evil, Gregor and Ramsey are chaotic evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DolorousKim Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Well, I'm late to this party, but still wanted to weigh in, as I think that this has been a really interesting thread.Participating and reading here hasn't really changed my opinions in any significant way, but the great eye for detail and some fascinating analysis done by the many fine posters has opened my eyes to some subtle details that I missed the first (or second, or third) time through the books.I still love Tyrion, and all the vitriol posted against him has, oddly enough, made me like him even more. Sure, he is certainly not without faults, and has performed some rather unambiguously bad acts, but it all adds to the complexity and the sense of "realness" that the character possesses to me.I still don't get the disproportionate hatred that Cat gets, and even after reading many, many threads, I don't think that I ever really will.I still can't relate to the polar opposite feelings that Sansa generates in so many posters. To me, she's neither the smartest, most selfless, compassionate and heroic character, nor some demon-spawn from hell, just a rather typical teenage girl, with many of the same attendant strengths and weaknesses. I neither love nor hate her character, but find it really interesting that she generates such strong feelings among so many readers.If there is one particular character that this site has caused me to shift my opinion on, it would be Stannis. After reading the Cressen prologue, I thought he was a total asshat and liked him not at all. By the end of Dragons, I was really starting to appreciate him more. After reading all the Stannis posts here I am now a fan. The enthusiasm of all those Stannis stans is really rather infectious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbstark Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Oh I was just making sure. so many people don't even know I like stannis and when I tell them they are always surprised.I guess I've been lurking for a while before starting to post :)You're one of my fave posters I fundamentally disagree with on who's best for the IT ;)I'm a fan of reasonable discussion that doesn't turn into flamewar/trollattack and am generally ok when people disagree with me for good reasonsETA: although if there is a troll attack... I'm getting my popcorn, sitting back, and enjoying the chaos, hahaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Illidan Stormrage Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 He pulls men from that class because they have no house loyalties that might override their obligations to him. jesus christ, seeing you talk about Pissant, you'd think he was unionizing labor or something.Never did i claim it. What i'm saying is that he is giving power to the smart and the idustious - while he may not have the goal of creating a Reneissance he is most likely to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 There is no evidence - this is simply what i believe in. He can connections with merchants and has helped merry merchants with nobles, he is smart and values skill above birth, judging from his time in the Vale he also is a good ruler and his plans can actually come to fruition because he is a deft politician. Also he is great to read about.There is not one single instance in the entire series of LF showing anyone mercy or doing something kind with no benefit to himself. The fact that Jeyne Poole was whipped and whored out shows exactly the kind of person LF is, the kind of person who can't be bothered to protect the girl even for the short time she's under his control.He doesn't value skill above birth, he values people he can buy and control, and so, those of lower birth are generally easier for him to control, it has nothing to do with any ideas of meritocracy, thats is pure projection.He is a skilled manipulator, but, I don't see anything to show he would be a good ruler or even that he wants to rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I guess I've been lurking for a while before starting to post :)You're one of my fave posters I fundamentally disagree with on who's best for the IT ;)I'm a fan of reasonable discussion that doesn't turn into flamewar/trollattack and am generally ok when people disagree with me for good reasonsETA: although if there is a troll attack... I'm getting my popcorn, sitting back, and enjoying the chaos, hahaaOh goodness, who do you think would be better? And for goodness sake please don't say renly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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