The High Septon arrests Cersei , de facto ruler? really?

[Underzaker]

I enjoyed her humiliation but I can't fathom how could this happen. Nobody could have saved her?

Or they didn't want to?

That I can still understand but again the Lannister name is on the line.

[Longspear Ryk]

Where are the lannisters troops? The tyrells are in control of kings landing as of feast and dance.

The lannister forces are straightening up the riverlands, kevan was busy worrying about lancel

[eggs]

I was under the impression that Kevan actually arranged the whole thing. Even if he didnt, he did allow it.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

The High Sparrow was careful to only make his move when Cersei was in right in the middle of his powerbase. She is now heavily guarded in what is basically an armed citadel.

Yes, Kevan could have commanded the City Watch to attack the Faith and storm the Great Sept of Baelor and maybe they would have obeyed him... and it would have been fun to count the days the Lannisters would survive with the whole realm up in arms against them.

And yes, probably Kevan didn't mind or even approved. Cersei had to be removed from power, and he thought that was an effective way.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Where are the lannisters troops? The tyrells are in control of kings landing as of feast and dance.

The lannister forces are straightening up the riverlands, kevan was busy worrying about lancel

Actually the Lannister forces don't exist anymore, at least not with serious strength. Currently they are down to ~3,000 men, spread over half of of Westeros.

[FuriousGeorge]

Throughout the whole of AFFC we see Cersei erode her own power base by making bad decision after bad decision, allying herself with characters who do not know how to exercise power effectively, and shunning those who can. Being imprisoned within what she thinks is her own city is the culmination of this in my opinion.

[Dr. Pepper]

I enjoyed her humiliation but I can't fathom how could this happen. Nobody could have saved her?

Or they didn't want to?

That I can still understand but again the Lannister name is on the line.

Yeah, the Lannister name would be considered so awesome after they attack a church. Could you imagine what would happen to a country who storms the Vatican?

[FuriousGeorge]

Yeah, the Lannister name would be considered so awesome after they attack a church. Could you imagine what would happen to a country who storms the Vatican?

Rome was sacked many many times

[Bad Hound!]

I have always been impressed / surprised at the speed at which the Faith has organised their own fighting force. Anyone else feel the same?

Cersei allows them to have their armed faction and, it seems like the next day, they have a fully organised army straight away. Could this mean that the High Septon had, in fact, assembled a force a while ago but kept it secret, and, as soon as Cersei authorised it, it came out of the closet and into the open?

[Dr. Pepper]

Rome was sacked many many times

Touche. Good burn.

Not very knowledgeable about Roman or Vatican history, tbh. This was obviously a bad example. Though as far as I know, the Vatican wasn't sacked by Christians who needed the support of other Christians. The throne needed the support of the Faith, and couldn't gain it by engaging in an attack on members of the faith in their major Sept.

ETA: Maybe they did? It's more like the monarchy of England attacking Westminster Abbey?

[Beorn Snow]

Rome was sacked many many times

Yes by barbarians.

In the christian middle ages, the ruler of an empire stretching from the baltic to the mediterreanean stood outside the gates of the vatican in the snow. (YES, Fight club style, he stood there for three days begging the pope to forgive him).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_IV,_Holy_Roman_Emperor

There are very few catholic rulers that stormed the vatican. And certainly noone that sacked it.

[Celestial]

Touche. Good burn.

Not very knowledgeable about Roman or Vatican history, tbh. This was obviously a bad example. Though as far as I know, the Vatican wasn't sacked by Christians who needed the support of other Christians.

The sack of Rome in 1527 by the troops of Charles Quintus, german emperor and king of Spain.

[Celestial]

Yes by barbarians.

In the christian middle ages, the ruler of an empire stretching from the baltic to the mediterreanean stood outside the gates of the vatican in the snow. (YES, Fight club style, he stood there for three days begging the pope to forgive him).http://en.wikipedia....y_Roman_Emperor

There are very few catholic rulers that stormed the vatican. And certainly noone that sacked it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Rome_(1527)

[LightSpectra]

Touche. Good burn.

Not very knowledgeable about Roman or Vatican history, tbh. This was obviously a bad example. Though as far as I know, the Vatican wasn't sacked by Christians who needed the support of other Christians. The throne needed the support of the Faith, and couldn't gain it by engaging in an attack on members of the faith in their major Sept.

ETA: Maybe they did? It's more like the monarchy of England attacking Westminster Abbey?

The most well-known sack of Rome in the post-antiquity era was the Spanish sacking in 1527. This was a complex political gambit from King Carlos I/Emperor Karl V. Pope Clement VII allied with France against Spain and the Holy Roman Empire, so it was very favorable to the Habsburgs if "something" happened to the Papacy. Conveniently he stalled paying his troops in northern Italy, so they went to Rome and sacked the city (technically it was an act of mutiny because they weren't ordered to).

The Tudor takeover of the Church of England was also a completely different matter, since all he was doing was asserting authority of the bishops of England in opposition to Rome, and then (with their cooperation) persecuted those who did not favor schism.

Both of those are completely different matters than if the Pope decided to arrest Queen Margaret of Anjou, and then the Lancaster forces sailed to Rome, freed her and put to sword the clergy....

[Quincunx]

The High Septon was elected High Septon because a mob took control, broke into the conclave, and demanded the election of their own candidate. Qyburn explains this to Cersei. Cersei goes ahead and legitimizes this mob into an official army, but there was a mob there from the beginning.

[Fender]

They could have legitimately considered it a high offense and raided the Sept of Baelor, demanding her return or threaten to kill all opposition until the "rightful ruler" is returned. They didn't do so. And attacking an armed force who is accused of wrongfully kidnapping an important figure while she believed to be in complete security under the laws of hospitality doesn't sound to me exactly like going against the religion itself, but rather simply against one of the administrative branches that has gone out of bounds. Anyways, I think that yes, they could have attacked the Sept and rescued her without the entire Faith turning against them. At least, until Cersei's reported crimes are publicized.

[LightSpectra]

Yes by barbarians.

In the christian middle ages, the ruler of an empire stretching from the baltic to the mediterreanean stood outside the gates of the vatican in the snow. (YES, Fight club style, he stood there for three days begging the pope to forgive him).http://en.wikipedia....y_Roman_Emperor

There are very few catholic rulers that stormed the vatican. And certainly noone that sacked it.

You're portraying the medieval Papacy to be some all-powerful entity that dictated laws to the monarchs of Europe. Actually the case with Heinrich IV during the Investiture Controversy was that his German kingdoms were suffering a *serious* civil war, and he needed the Papacy's episcopal support to help clean up. After the civil war was over, the Papacy was at his knees; hence why Pope St. Gregory VII died in exile.

"Certainly noone sacked it", sure about that? There was both a Norman and a Spanish-Italian-German sacking, both from Catholic monarchs.

[eggs]

Didnt Aegon's son destroy the Faith's armed forces back in the day?

[Beorn Snow]

Both of those are completely different matters than if the Pope decided to arrest Queen Margaret of Anjou, and then the Lancaster forces sailed to Rome, freed her and put to sword the clergy....

True. I think it´s more comparable to a situation like that rather than any others. The papacy has varied a lot in power and neutrality. In some times of the medieval era the popes are untouchable, in other we have two different popes dependant on monarchs, and so on.

But, still, it´s never good politically to hurt the pope. Or a pope.

Cersei got herself into this mess, she made it possible for the high septon to do these things.

You're portraying the medieval Papacy to be some all-powerful entity that dictated laws to the monarchs of Europe. Actually the case with Heinrich IV during the Investiture Controversy was that his German kingdoms were suffering a *serious* civil war, and he needed the Papacy's episcopal support to help clean up. After the civil war was over, the Papacy was at his knees; hence why Pope St. Gregory VII died in exile.

"Certainly noone sacked it", sure about that? There was both a Norman and a Spanish-Italian-German sacking, both from Catholic monarchs.

You are probably more knowledgeable about than I am. I´m by no means an expert, I happened to remember this. But how many sackings occurred over a 1200 year period from Charlemagne´s coronation by pope Leo III? The papacy doesn´t have a huge army, but I´m sure that fighting the church and getting excommunicated is something you try to avoid as a medieval monarch. The normans and the spanish are a bit special? Well, I don´t know really, but it seems to me that Cersei´s arrest is plausible, and that in the real world the papacy has a lot of power.

[Castellan]

Re the original question - Both Kevan and the Tyrells are pleased to have her out of the way as she is ruining Tommen's chances of staying in power - although they have no long term benefit if incest and illegitimacy is proved (and the High Septon hints he doesn't want Stannis seen as the legitimate heir because he is no longer of the Faith). Kevan and Tywin before him has been losing power and playing a very defensive game so his options are limited.

We don't know the size of their army but it is probably more of a city force that can act in King's Landing than an army as such. Probably not as powerful as the gold cloaks but maybe too risky to try to disarm them using the gold cloaks. That kind of civil chaos is the last thing they need while there is an actual war on. Perhaps the key thing is the High Septon is prepared to resist any attempt to arrest and depose him and this preparedness to fight changes things.

The extent of the Septs power prior to this does not seem very great though - even in a non military sense - we don't see them wielding a lot of power in KL or around the country.

Sometimes I think GRRM has not created a seemlessly plausible world that will withstand examination from every angle...