[Book Spoilers] Is Loras really the plan?

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Doesn't all this just boil down to a generalized opposition to arranged marriages in Westeros? Did Joffrey really have much more of a choice than did Sansa? Ned, though an adult, was equally bound by custom to marry a woman he didn't really even know or want, and the same for Catelyn.

I don't get why this is such a big deal in the context of the books, or why it is any worse than lots of the other barbarism/lack of respect for individual rights in Westeros/medieval setting. Arranged marriages - big deal.

[jons nissa]

i agree, men were just as forced as women when it comes to arranged marriages. however the argument is always made that men had it easier and they did. they had easier access to lovers and could hide bastards easier than a woman.

the argument is also made that tyrion had more choice than sansa as to whether or not to marry. i've seen really solid defense of both sides of this argument so i think it's hard to take a definite stand on this. that said, i believe tyrion was as forced to do this as sansa but i agree there were real rewards for tyrion as a result of the union while sansa gained nothing.

bringing this to the willas/loras proposal, again, there are real gains for the groom but sansa only gains a chance to leave king's landing, not that that's a small matter, but very unfair, all things considered, so it's really not much better for her.

eta:

my last post was really addressing the issue of consent and it's importance and it's shortcomings.

[Rhaegarsjoy]

I think their parents can force them the first time around and since there is no such thing as deforce some found other ways to get their Revenge or any sort of happiness and not always the right way like cercei refused to have her husbands children, lysa kills her to be with the man she loved. Sansa maybe as she got older could have found a way to get rid of unwanted husband wether Tyrion or willas.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

The reality would be someone who fucks her for her claim, she would find that out only a little later and the fall would be just as deep, or deeper since she would get fucked.

I agree he and the rest of the Tyrells only wanted her for her claim but I think she is aware of that. What she isn't aware of yet, and how could she be, is what it really means to be married. jons nissa is correct, it's puppies and picnics she's thinking of not consummation with a complete stranger, pregnancy and possibly dying in childbirth, finding commonality with that stranger or how life at Highgarden, although probably safer than King's Landing, might not be the song she would like it to be. Let's face it, she thinks the Tyrells are her friends until she is literally walking toward Tyrion to be married. She is just not aware of what lies ahead for her, regardless of who she marries.

[Tommen]

The one thing I didn't necessarily like about all that is the fact that Margaery is supposed to feel safe by Joff's side cause her bro is a KG, which I guess also doesn't matter in the show cause she's the puppeteer

I think that's one of best changes they've made on the show, Margaery protecting herself with her own wits rather than relying on a man to reassure her. :)

And I think tbh that Margaery thinks she's doing both Sansa and Loras a personal favour. Loras' son would be Lord of Winterfell and I don't think she's heartless enough to realise that Sansa desperate to escape Joffrey and Cersei. Even marrying a man who isn't sexually interested in her is surely preferable to being Joffrey's prisoner.

[Hound's She-wolf]

Why do people dislike Sansa for fantasizing and dreaming? She's a 12 year old girl stuck in hell! She has been beaten and stripped in front of the court and is still held hostage by the same people that killed her family. Of-course she's going to daydream and try to fantasize about a husband that loves her and what a wonderful life she's going to have when she gets away from Kings Landing. In the book, she knows nothing negative about Willas other than he's crippled and that doesn't bother her. I always think of Loras as the Westeros version of Justin Bieber (or more like Lance Bass), of-course she's going to jump at the chance to get out of Kings Landing with him.

I don't think she has a concept of what really goes on in the marriage bed either, her parents did a terrible job preparing any of their kids for life in Kings Landing or for playing the Game of Thrones.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Why do people dislike Sansa for fantasizing and dreaming?

Sansa's character arc has been more than that, and you can't just look at the fantasizing without what came before when considering people's reactions to her. To many people, she was easy to dislike in AGOT given her treatment towards her sister, particularly the component where she made fun of her because of her looks, or because she wasn't ladylike enough, etc.. Then lying about Mycah, ratting our her father's plans to Cersei, etc.. All of those actions became part of how people perceived her --the stuck-up, conceited girl who thinks the only things that matter are how pretty you are, and which boys like you. And whose interest in the world is pretty much limited to how things will work out for her personally. For many people, I think that doesn't paint a very attractive picture.

Because of how things went in KL, she really hasn't had much of a chance (yet) to demonstrate that she's matured. Her preoccupation with dreaming and fantasizing suggests that she still thinks that it's all about her, and so just fantasizes about how her life could be so much better. There's nothing wrong with doing that on occasion, but that seems to be much more the case with Sansa than with her younger siblings Bran and Arya, who are acting and not just dreaming. That doesn't make her a bad person, but I think it makes her less appealing as a character, especially in comparison with the level of activity in which everyone else seems engaged. Again, her being stuck in KL really limits what she can do, so people are left with the somewhat negative impression of her from AGOT.

Leaving aside nasty AGOT Sansa, I think the biggest problem she has in terms of perceptions is that people generally don't like watchin people who seem like they feel sorry for themselves all the time. It's just not a very attractive or interesting quality.

[Count Balerion]

I was wondering about the whole Kingsguard thing, but I daresay it’s pretty clear they wouldn’t offer Loras to Sansa if he weren’t a least technically available.

The “growing strong” pun reminds me of Olenna’s sarcastic commentary on the Tyrell words.

I still wonder about the PW plot. In the book, as I recall, QoT has plotted that with LF; in the show, she plots with Varys *against* LF. I suppose she could plot the murder with LF and still plot against LF’s abduction plan (which is agains er interests anway).

The Aegon-Sansa pairing is intriguing, although I have mixed feelings about Aegon since I’m a bit of a Daniac.

In answer to a question above, it was Tyrion who asked Loras about the Kingsguard thing.

(As for Sansa, I sympathize and cut her a certain amount of slack for the wooby factor, and hope things work out for her, although hopefully she’ll also grow up.)