Heresy 52

[Tyryan Lannister]

Just a quick thought on Thoros and Beric Dondarrion. Although we readers don't get to learn of it until comparatively late on in the book, that raising of the dead lark is another bit of magic returning to the world before the dragons hatched.

Hell, while we don't know for sure whether it came before or after the red comet (we don't know exactly when that first battle between Dondarrion's Men and the Mountain's Men took place within the timeline)

[Viserys_The Transformed]

Hey... Didnt Grrm himself mention that we wont go to Valyria ?

He said NO to Ashhai, Valyria, and YES to Land of Always Winter.... Right ????

[Tyryan Lannister]

Something interesting out of the fifth episode that is not necessarilty Heresy related:

So we finally meet Shireen. Patchface was cut out and his crazy ramblings (prophesies?) are echoed in the songs Shireen sings... We know Val isn't fond of Shireen's condition and that Melissandre is suspicious of Patchface. So that might make for some interesting consequence later in the show. Mayhaps Val&Mel will team up against Shireen. Or greyscale will get linked to some visionary qualities.

Edit: It could also only be a bone to throw to the readers ;)

Regardless of what role Patchface has yet to play, it likely is not something that would have come up during Martin's talk with D&D about the overall plot of the series. As such, from the showrunner's standpoint, Patchface simply serves the role of cryptic prophet, and therefore they see putting his lines in as simply being a bone to throw to the readers--which is more likely to be the case with this particular episode given that it was written by Bryan Cogman, who, for those who don't know, is the "Bible keeper" for the show, wherein he is the person who reads the series almost obsessively (sounds familiar... :devil: ) as an attempt to keep the show sort of on track with the books (whether or not the particular writers choose to follow his advice is not up to him); the point being that, as the person on the higher-up production staff who has read the books multiple times, he is far more in tune with the readers and he is therefore much more likely to add little "Easter eggs" for us.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Hey... Didnt Grrm himself mention that we wont go to Valyria ?

He said NO to Ashhai, Valyria, and YES to Land of Always Winter.... Right ????

Never said anything about Valyria, but, correct, said that we would not be going to Asshai and that we will be going to the LoAW

[Little Wing]

Yeah, would love to have Patchface in the show, but.... another child prodigy prophet? Why not. Just hope they don't go crazy with it....

[Tyryan Lannister]

Yeah, would love to have Patchface in the show, but.... another child prodigy prophet? Why not. Just hope they don't go crazy with it....

As long as they keep it on the level that they did in this episode, I'd be fine with it. I didn't even realize that what Shireen was singing in the scene where Stannis came to her was one of Patchface's songs until the credits--at which point it is obvious that she's singing Patchface.

[Black Crow]

Sounds rather on the same level with Bloodraven being usurped by Jojen Reed.

[Black Crow]

Hell, while we don't know for sure whether it came before or after the red comet (we don't know exactly when that first battle between Dondarrion's Men and the Mountain's Men took place within the timeline)

Early, its got to be early because wasn't there some hopes of snaffling Ned himself?

Edit: they still had Robert Baratheon's banner when they first got chopped by Clegane. There isn't an actual date, but it had to be before Tywin Lannister's victory on the Green Fork.

[Lord Martin Sheol]

( :bang: so ANGRY! just reloaded the page by mistake)

About the HBO episode: not particulary happy about it, it's really a shame that production costs are so high. Now there's no Patchface, such a charming character, and apparently not only Loras is the heir to Highgarden (being in the Kingsguard there was a plot to have him wed to Sansa and there was no mention of that being an issue), the inexistance of Willas and Ser Garlan, but he's also unfaithful to Renly (I remember with joy his answer to Sansa about not being able to marry "Once the sun has setted...") Anyway... :commie: f you capitalism.

Now: Beings of Ice and Fire

To beggin with, I have a doubt. Are you guys actually saying that the red priests hide their real appearance with glamours? I really don't think so. At least not with Thoros. For all we know, he was just a drunken fat bstrd red priest really friendly to Robert since they shared so many vices, and he had no magic. But then he gets powers, effective powers, and the only change he suffers is loosing weight, since now he's not just jumping from a feast to another with Robert. Now, if we talk about beings of fire, I cannot help but to think of dragons. Wich, leads me to disregard the idea of direwolves (and I'll talk about the Starks later) as beings of ice, since they have no supernatural power directly representing ice. I recall that from the WW tales that they rode on giant spiders, maybe those are the ice equivalents for dragons? I mean, since we only know from them as their mounts, maybe there's more to be known, maybe they do have a connection to ice, just maybe.

Moving on, I wanted to express some thoughts about how the WW are, how can I put this? Unnatural, destructive, unbalanced, and else. If we consider that ASoIaF is written based on our cultur, I know of no cultur that hold cold as a possitive thing, no prayers for winter, snow, cold, etc. Maybe some don't consider them utterly negative, but certainly not a good thing, such as spring or summer. There are always prayers for a favorable crop, rains, fertile lands, the proper rest of our dearly departed, etc. Cold, death, carnage (for they seem pretyy cruel), having a zombie army made of the very slain corpses of their enemies or any other living thing they find and that's a clear ugly and heretic slap on the face of the natural cycle... How can they not be considered a destructive and negative force on that world? Do someone thinks that the human race needs more predators that the humans themselves? In their own wars, humans die by the thousands, is there a need for another force so that even more perish? If anything, that alien force could even unite the realms of men.

Since the CotF used dragonglass as their weapons, don't you think they were already antagonists to the WW? How can't they be their enemies, if the CotF dwell on nature, living nature? Yes, they do sacrifices, but a massacre is not a sacrifice. And if it's true that the WW are the natural antagonist to the CotF, given that now they're really weak, maybe there's a reason for the WW increase in power and number.

There's much more to be discussed, and I'm open to the theories of both sides or the side of fire being overpowered at the moment, but I think that the issue, the real troublemakers are the WW, at least on winter, after all the only thing that seems to be able to hold them is the warmth of the south,,, well unless they themselves bring winter and the snow with them.

Just things to be considered.

Finally, about Heraclitus, yes, he did used the image of fire as the primal energy on his philosophy, since it is based on change,and when something is set afire, it changes. I didn't brought the image of fire because in ASoIaF would seem really one sided xD But yes, his inspiration may very well be of use to us.

[Black Crow]

Ah, you mistake us my friend. Not all Red priests are Fire made flesh; Thoros as you say is still far too human. However as to Mel, Moqorro and now their dupe Victarion, see the essay in Heresy 50 where the unmistakeable evidence is set out.

Similarly the Ice made flesh tag has only ever been applied to the Others/Sidhe themselves (by GRRM); there's never been any suggestion of it applying to their wights or their allies sich as the direwolves.

'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

The ice spiders, which we've yet to see if we ever will, are described as being like hounds, they don't come riding on them.

as to the dragonglass, that's not as significant as a lot of people think because the Children don't work metal and dragonglass is their usual weapon.

[King Tyrion VIII]

( :bang: so ANGRY! just reloaded the page by mistake)

About the HBO episode: not particulary happy about it, it's really a shame that production costs are so high. Now there's no Patchface, such a charming character, and apparently not only Loras is the heir to Highgarden (being in the Kingsguard there was a plot to have him wed to Sansa and there was no mention of that being an issue), the inexistance of Willas and Ser Garlan, but he's also unfaithful to Renly (I remember with joy his answer to Sansa about not being able to marry "Once the sun has setted...") Anyway... :commie: f you capitalism.

Now: Beings of Ice and Fire

To beggin with, I have a doubt. Are you guys actually saying that the red priests hide their real appearance with glamours? I really don't think so. At least not with Thoros. For all we know, he was just a drunken fat bstrd red priest really friendly to Robert since they shared so many vices, and he had no magic. But then he gets powers, effective powers, and the only change he suffers is loosing weight, since now he's not just jumping from a feast to another with Robert. Now, if we talk about beings of fire, I cannot help but to think of dragons. Wich, leads me to disregard the idea of direwolves (and I'll talk about the Starks later) as beings of ice, since they have no supernatural power directly representing ice. I recall that from the WW tales that they rode on giant spiders, maybe those are the ice equivalents for dragons? I mean, since we only know from them as their mounts, maybe there's more to be known, maybe they do have a connection to ice, just maybe.

Moving on, I wanted to express some thoughts about how the WW are, how can I put this? Unnatural, destructive, unbalanced, and else. If we consider that ASoIaF is written based on our cultur, I know of no cultur that hold cold as a possitive thing, no prayers for winter, snow, cold, etc. Maybe some don't consider them utterly negative, but certainly not a good thing, such as spring or summer. There are always prayers for a favorable crop, rains, fertile lands, the proper rest of our dearly departed, etc. Cold, death, carnage (for they seem pretyy cruel), having a zombie army made of the very slain corpses of their enemies or any other living thing they find and that's a clear ugly and heretic slap on the face of the natural cycle... How can they not be considered a destructive and negative force on that world? Do someone thinks that the human race needs more predators that the humans themselves? In their own wars, humans die by the thousands, is there a need for another force so that even more perish? If anything, that alien force could even unite the realms of men.

Since the CotF used dragonglass as their weapons, don't you think they were already antagonists to the WW? How can't they be their enemies, if the CotF dwell on nature, living nature? Yes, they do sacrifices, but a massacre is not a sacrifice. And if it's true that the WW are the natural antagonist to the CotF, given that now they're really weak, maybe there's a reason for the WW increase in power and number.

There's much more to be discussed, and I'm open to the theories of both sides or the side of fire being overpowered at the moment, but I think that the issue, the real troublemakers are the WW, at least on winter, after all the only thing that seems to be able to hold them is the warmth of the south,,, well unless they themselves bring winter and the snow with them.

Just things to be considered.

Finally, about Heraclitus, yes, he did used the image of fire as the primal energy on his philosophy, since it is based on change,and when something is set afire, it changes. I didn't brought the image of fire because in ASoIaF would seem really one sided xD But yes, his inspiration may very well be of use to us.

I'm baffled by your "f you capitalism" line. I'm not caught up on the show, but go ahead and spoil anything you need to in order to answer this.

[Black Crow]

As to capitalism. Having worked in the business I feel bound to point out that its not simply a matter of saving money on actors but of adapting the show in a way that non-readers can understand what's going on. Sometimes unfairly referred to as dumbing down its more accurately a matter of removing distractions from the central story.

This is why the current Kremlin watching over the show is so interesting. If a particular character is being cut out, amalgamated or replaced by someone else its a possible indicator that character is not so important as he or she at first appeared, There's all sorts of speculation on the board as to the importance of Patchface, but if he's being cut out that speculation may be a dead end. Same goes for Bloodraven. If Jojen Reed can safely be used as Bran's teacher then perhaps he isn't the mad genius who is warging everything in sight and manipulating the whole story.

[Lord Martin Sheol]

I'm baffled by your "f you capitalism" line. I'm not caught up on the show, but go ahead and spoil anything you need to in order to answer this.

Oh, that's just line of me pretending not to have resignated to the reality that the show won't ever be as great as the books, blaming capitalism just because... you have to blame it on something. And no billionaire would invest money on in he wouldn't profit of. Seriously though, maybe if the show had all the resources at hand it would be really close to the greatness of the books.

Still, its got plenty good stuff on it. I was really glad with Beric vs Hound and the bath scene also. Those were almost as I imagined them ^_^

BC, you're right, some had already pointed that out. Martin wouldn't let his story being abused, if some things are misplaced or left aside, it should be because it's not that an important issue.

About the priests, maybe they are indeed fire made flesh, but I don't know if there's any need for glamours. Maybe that is their real appearance. Note that neither Moqorro nor Melisandre would go unnoticed in a crowd, not even between in a festival, maybe only at a phreak show or something like that. Melisandre isn't just redhaired, her hair is red, truly red, and even her eyes are red, wich is not a human trait (albinos..., but she's not, and I'm sure the colour would still be different). The same goes to Moqorro, being as black as coal. No intention to go unnoticed or camouflage something, I believe.

Edit: Adding possitve stuff instead of just being sad about the show. And after BC post (while I was writing)

[Black Crow]

Yeah, but compare their perfect appearance with Victarion, who doesn't have a glamour to disguise his pork crackling, and note as well how the Wall melts when Mel stands next to it.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Thanks for the explanation Marti. I've always thought the show would be perfect if the seasons were 20-24 episodes. If I was crazy rich I would give the show $20mil an episode or whatever they needed.

[Black Crow]

Good episode. On the surface nothing much in the way of heresy except one very significant line from Selyse (who's clearly bat-shit insane) when she prays to R'hllor to "burn away her sins"; which fits in very closely with what we've been discussing about Mel and Moqorro being fire made flesh.

[Vegeta_Greyjoy]

Don't forget Thoros has been away from the order for 15-20 years. A lot could have changed in that span.

Plus Moqorro is a slave, who bears the flame tattoos & physical evidence of sorcery/experiments.

[Black Crow]

Indeed, its something we spoke about way back when the possibilities that Mel is no longer human were first discussed. Thoros is a typical Parson. He's too junior to inherit, to clever to be a soldier but not clever enough to be a lawyer, so he goes into the church.

Mel and Moqorro on the other hand were bought as slaves and as we've seen you can do unspeakable things to slaves, because they're slaves.

[Hrafntýr]

This is why the current Kremlin watching over the show is so interesting. If a particular character is being cut out, amalgamated or replaced by someone else its a possible indicator that character is not so important as he or she at first appeared, There's all sorts of speculation on the board as to the importance of Patchface, but if he's being cut out that speculation may be a dead end. Same goes for Bloodraven. If Jojen Reed can safely be used as Bran's teacher then perhaps he isn't the mad genius who is warging everything in sight and manipulating the whole story.

BC, you're right, some had already pointed that out. Martin wouldn't let his story being abused, if some things are misplaced or left aside, it should be because it's not that an important issue.

I agree to this in principle, but like other forms of prophecy, we're only going to know after the deeds have been done. I'm not convinced that we're not going to see Bloodraven in the show. It may be that he's simply not important yet, in terms of the way that the story is being adapted to a different medium, different audiences. There's all kinds of ways in which he could be introduced even more creepily, down the road. After all, the show needs to build up the relationship between Bran and the Reeds, since we didn't see their time together at Winterfell. But it's hard to imagine the story unfolding without the weirnet and Bran's interaction with the Children. I just think they're saving it, since they had to deal with introducing all sorts of new characters with the new season. That's hard for an audience unfamiliar with the books.

I've never really managed to care about Patchface, so I'm not much bothered by his omission!

[King Tyrion VIII]

BC: How many hours seperate the episode airing in the US and the UK? I've been thinking for awhile that there should be a way for you to watch them sooner.