Was leaving Daenerys in Meereen a mistake?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

LOL! Of all the things that were wrong with Meereen, people hate her for sleeping with Daario?? Apparently some people can get jealous even at literary characters. :D

Very predictable though. As soon as a female character stops being a cliché-teenage-vigin or cliché-mother, people yell "whore!!!" and show their basest instincts.

I loathe Daenerys and cannot think of a single instance where that dislike had to do with her sexual activities. Plenty of us have very valid reasons to hate her and I'll thank you not to tar us all with the slut-shaming brush.

[Mikkel]

LOL! Of all the things that were wrong with Meereen, people hate her for sleeping with Daario?? Apparently some people can get jealous even at literary characters. :D

Very predictable though. As soon as a female character stops being a cliché-teenage-vigin or cliché-mother, people yell "whore!!!" and show their basest instincts.

It has nothing to do with her "getting some" (good for her!), and all to do with the typical-teenage-crush way she was gushing over Big D ad nauseum (which is cringe-worthy at the best of times). If I want to read about annoying lovebirds swooning over each other, I'll go on Facebook.

[Ser Creighton]

I don't agree with this. If GRRM could resurrect dead characters, he could do much better with aging the dragons. It's his book. I think he is trying to show the similarities or differences between Dany's and Aegon's conquest of Westeros. They both seem to have spent a lot of time in Essos.

Also, I noticed Jorah Mormont seemed to have doubted the story of Aegon conquering with dragons. I find this very strange because there have been so many stories backing that claim. Very strange.

Well agree or not Martin actually talked about it. So I don't really have a lot of room to argue against him, not going to try either.

As for Aegon, he never wanted Essos, as the story goes the Targaryens left Valyria for dragonstone because of a prophecy that Valyria would be destroyed. They left something like 200 years before it happened and they stayed at Dragonstone. They originally left with 5 dragons. After about a 100 there was feud over what to do between the Targaryen family members. In the end Aegons branch of the family won, Aegon of course is not alive at this time. But only Balarion survived the fighting. 100 years later Aegon and his sisters decided to conquer Westeros/7 Kingdoms. They now had 3 dragons so I assume some eggs were hatched.

Do you have a quote from Mormont about doubting the story of Aegon? I don't recall this, also was it pre the hatching of Dragons. In which case he may have been a sceptic over there ever being dragons.

[Ser Creighton]

I agree Ser Creighton and Omar from The Wire.

Without the time jump, Dany needed some time for her dragons to grow to be truly threatening able to ride if she was to have a chance at conquering Westeros and bring allies to her side. So Meereen took much longer than we feel it should have, but it does make sense.

...I also could have done with less Dany swooning over Daario, but oh well.

What you have a problem with Dany and Dary? Well okay aside from the fact that the story was never really even developed it just sort of went from nothing to intense desire in like 2 seconds was not done very well. And yes okay he is a one dimensional character with zero depth and the best Martin could do was repeat gold tooth over and over and over. So ok yeah he is a closer to a gold toothed plot device than an actual character, but he did have a blue strange looking beard, or was it purple? Honestly though I think of him as a tooth and nothing more. I mean just no depth.

[Rhaegarsjoy]

It has nothing to do with her "getting some" (good for her!), and all to do with the typical-teenage-crush way she was gushing over Big D ad nauseum (which is cringe-worthy at the best of times). If I want to read about annoying lovebirds swooning over each other, I'll go on Facebook.

I think the fact we get so many versions of real life human personalities in this series like in real life is what makes the books unique. if every character is written as perfect or evil then it wouldn't be different then anything else out there and no one would be talking about them or have these forums. I love George's "insight" (if that's the right word) in writing Dany, her infatuation/ love of Daario is so realistic of a GIRL that age.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

What you have a problem with Dany and Dary? Well okay aside from the fact that the story was never really even developed it just sort of went from nothing to intense desire in like 2 seconds was not done very well. And yes okay he is a one dimensional character with zero depth and the best Martin could do was repeat gold tooth over and over and over. So ok yeah he is a closer to a gold toothed plot device than an actual character, but he did have a blue strange looking beard, or was it purple? Honestly though I think of him as a tooth and nothing more. I mean just no depth.

It didnt really go from nothing to intense desire. From the first time she sees him she's commenting on his appearance and he's clearly infatuated with her.

Not that I'm saying it was a great storyline or anything, it just didnt spring from completely nothing

[Fire and Lemoncakes]

Imo it's a good thing that plot direction isn't decided by fanboy vote.

I don't get all the Daario hate. There isn't a whiny thread about Jon/Ygritte or Sam/Gilly every other day and those are pretty much the same as Dany/Daario.

Dany couldn't show up in Westeros with like 5 warriors and useless dragons or make her unsullied swim there. Only some Jon Snow fanboys think you can win the throne on an asspull. The FAegon story wouldn't make much sense either if Dany were already reigning in King's Landing.

[Grip]

The problem I have with the Dany/Daario relationship is not what they do in bed I, dont care about that and never have, but rather that Dany underestimates the advice given by Daairo. While I am no fan of the man atleast he isnt without some sense, bloodthirsty perhaps but also realistic. I mean he urges her to take action, to attack and move on. He realises that the greatest threat comes from the Great Masters and that they should be dealt with. Then he even criticizes her for marrying Hizdahr.; Her anger flashed. "Have you forgotten who I am?"

"No. Have you?" ADWD (hardback) page 305. I think its interesting that he, alongside Groleo and Brown Ben Plumm, advices Dany to release her dragons which they think could turn the tide. All in all I think its a mistake to view Daairo only as a sword buckling playmate.

[Lord Freypie]

Actually I find Dany stay in Mereen add a lot of depth to both her personnality, the world and how it works.

First it makes Dany the only character feeling the need to learn how to rule a kingdom for the greater good before pushing a claim on the Iron Throne. Which is extremely logical considering she never even ruled a lordship or spent years being member of the council, unlike for example Stannis and Renly. It creates a big difference between Daenerys and unexperienced rulers like Cersei only seeking power for the sake of it (or write her name in history or take revenge against the world). Would Daenerys had moved directly to Westeros (imagining some magical way to make her dragons grow faster) she would have been no more than a Cersei 2.0 or, at best, a Robb (without the excuse of being urged by events into becoming a king), to resume a guaranteed fail. Instead she is learning her trade. And the number of errors she makes, even just ruling one small city, shows how much it was important to do so before being in charge of a 50 times bigger kingdom.

Then all the slavery and peace arcs, describing how a politic inspired by good ideals can end doing making things even worse, is one of the deepest things Martin writes, and makes his world far more realistic than for example Robin Hobb's one (my impression is the whole Ghiscari arc is an answer to The Livership Traders simplistic depiction of slavery as something that just asks for being abolished, as in general ASOIAF is one to "good always win" manicheist fantasy). One of the best passages of the whole serie for me are the ones she has to deliver justice, and thinking about the greater good always end taking decisions that seems completely inhuman in the particular cases she has to judge, showing how much good and wrong are hard to define. Daenerys in Mereen is a permanent political class, and as disturbing it should be in what is showed about the exercise of power. Probably the part of all the books that makes you think the most about real world rulers, history and politics. For me, as annoying some Dany substories may be like her relationship with Daario etc..., her Mereen chapters are one of the most brillant things Martin ever wrote.

Finally there is Esos her stay in Mereen allow to developp, which puts Westeros back into perspective, as one of the many realms of a world most inhabitants don't even care about. And the reactions in Volantis, etc... to show how much something like a promised prince abolishing slavery is far more waited for than just a new king/queen on the iron throne. It also reminds the reader that Dany (imagining she is to fulfill propheties ; or whoever is the chosen) isn't here just to rule Westeros but save that whole world. Dany consideration for Ghiscaris is like Jon consideration for Wildlings, it makes them the few potential rulers who do/will care about humanity as a whole and some kind of greater good. And it's preparing the war with the others in a more meaningful way than rushing to Westeros to bring "fire and blood", like many characters and readers would like Dany to.

[BenBamBoo]

It is a popular thought that the Meereen stint in Dany's arc is far too long and stalls her entire storyline, but I feel she is a means to an end in a sense. She is essentially the catalyst that brings other players in the game together. Tyrion, Barristan, Dorne, the Unsullied etc. As a new force they can now competently attack Westeros and it is pretty irrelevant whether Dany survives or not, she is just the catalyst for a new powerful group vying for control of the Iron Throne - a group that has dragons!

She will end up in Westeros with her dragons, but she needs people to help her to do that. If she just rocked up Dorne, Tyrion and others would not just defect and join her. In order for her Westeros support to be taken seriously they needed to seek her out and Meereen is where they all come together.

The mistake GRRM seems to have made is getting her to Meereen too early. He then had to have her kill time there while the Westeros storylines played out and characters were free to make their way over the Narrow Sea. Given that her arc is pretty much isolated in the first book, in hindsight it may have been better to leave her out of GoT and introduce her in aCoK.

I only hope Aegon arriving in Westeros will give her a kick up the backside and get there as well.

[Caelestis]

While I agree that GRRM ended up writing himself in a terrible corner because of his decision to cut the 5-year time-skip, causing the story to linger on Dany's attempt to rule Meereen (not saying that this decision wasn't necessarily the right one; what I mean is that either option caused as much problems as it solved), I don't think it was as much a waste as many readers believe. No, I did not enjoy the politics in Slaver's Bay as much as Dany wrecking shit in Slavery's Bay in ASOS, nor did I like her swooning over Daario, the marriage to Hizdahr or Quentyn getting himself toasted in his desperate attempt to salvage the mission his father gave him, but I'm starting to believe it is precisely this massive crash that Danaerys is going through that is actually necessary for her development as a character.

We've been seeing this pattern of people losing direction in their lives and trying to find a new path with many PoV characters in ASoIaF, actually. In fact, looking at the storyline from this perspective, AFFC and ADWD suddenly match up surprisingly well thematically. A few examples:

- Jaime loses his hand, his pride, Tyrion's affection and his father in ASoS; he tries to hold on to his connection with Cersei only to realise that she never really loved him in the first place. His meandering throughout AFFC seems to be going nowhere in particular, aside from possibly his quest for redemption by finding Catelyn's daughters through Brienne. But at the climax of AFFC, something seemingly small, but very significant happens: he utterly rejects Cersei and his implicit trust in Brienne by following her in ADWD demonstrates how serious he is about his regained sense of 'honour'. Even if Brienne is (unwillingly) leading Jaime into a trap, Jaime's character seems to have crossed a major threshold.

- Bran never really recovered emotionally from his fall in AGoT. His journey through the North is a seemingly endless trek with no clear purpose. After crossing the Wall in particular, I feel there's a heightened sense of despair, not only from Bran, but also from the Reeds: Meera is beginning to doubt the journey and why they set out on it to begin with, while Jojen is doing the opposite - he's resigned himself to the journey and the fact that he's going to die so strongly that he doesn't seem to care much about anything anymore. Bran can do nothing more in his 'quest' but persist. When they finally reach Bloodraven, however, something changes. Meera and Jojen are still the same: Meera does not yet understand the significance of their actions, while Jojen is increasingly under the weight of his impending death. But Bran seems to be starting to know himself again: for good or ill, Bran embraces his destiny as a Greenseer. He, too, has crossed a threshold.

- Jon's development may be one of the most significant of all the characters. At first glance, Jon doesn't seem to be 'lost' at all: in ASOS, he defended the Wall, rejected Stannis' offer of Winterfell and was elected Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Yet he, perhaps more than anyone else, is caught between his various identities. Because of his time among the Wildlings, he is no longer the biased member of the Night's Watch that he used to be, viewing all the Wildlings as the traditional enemy to be opposed (like Bowen Marsh), going against the established order. Because of his deep attachment to Arya, he cannot let the matter of Winterfell rest and accepts Melisandre's offer to send Mance Rayder to rescue her, despite skirting the limits of his vows in doing so. Because of his new position, he feels he cannot let his friends be as close to him as they used to be. Because of his recognition as Stannis as the only king that takes the threat of the Others seriously, he again ignores the traditional neutrality of the Night's Watch and gives Stannis sound advice to win the North to this cause. We see Jon clearly wrestling with all these issues throughout ADWD, but there's no satisfying resolution - he too is torn between the person he is and what he knows he needs to be. All of this merely drags on until one event seems to push Jon too far: the apparent 'death' of Stannis, the discovery of Mance and Ramsay openly threatening the Night's Watch rouses Jon to break his vows and settle the matter of the Boltons, for the good of the realm. Even if he is assassinated and prevented from carrying out these actions, Jon too has found a new direction.

And these are only a handful of examples. The struggle for identity and all those doubts and anxieties return in practically every PoV character, especially the most important ones: Tyrion, Arya, Theon, Sansa and, of course, Danaerys.

If we apply this analysis to Dany, I feel like her entire story-arc in Meereen suddenly makes a hell of a lot more sense. Precisely because Dany recognises that there's more to being a good ruler than conquering cities, she becomes so fixed on becoming a capable, peaceful queen that she ignores the truth that is staring right in her face: slavery was not truly broken, enemies are all around her and she needs to ACT if she wants to succeed. Torn between a desire to solve the immediate issues before her in Essos and a vague goal of one day re-taking Westeros, she succeeds at neither. She locks her true self away along with her dragons, while her infatuation with Daario becomes an outlet for all her repressed desires. Drogon, always her greatest weapon and favourite dragon, leaving her also symbolises her own power disappearing. She becomes so blind and lost that she barely notices that her entire regime is falling apart around her. Her reluctance to commit to Westeros makes Quentyn feel that he's failed in the immensely important mission that his father gave him, causing him to do something stupid which has probably cost Dany the support of the Dornish.

Ironically, only when Dany is confronted by Drogon does she start to wake up: like Jon, a major event shakes her and forces her to act. But Drogon does not obey her yet, because she herself still hasn't fully realised her power. Only when lost in the wilderness, lost to her people, lost in her own head does she realise how truly lost she has been in her life. But like many of the characters in AFFC/ADWD, Dany crosses the threshold and arrives at an answer: Fire and Blood. At last, Dany remembers that rather than running away from her own power, she needs to embrace it. She calls Drogon and THIS time, not only does he answer, but he seems to fly exactly where she wants him to go. Lost in the wild, weak and alone, Dany is confronted by Khal Jhaqo and his Dothraki, yet stands before them all confidently. At this point, that only makes sense if something major has snapped in Danaerys. GRRM is also no fool: I think he, above all, knows just how much he tortured his readers by allowing Dany to waste away in Meereen rather than having her travel to Westeros, which only makes sense if there was a purpose to all of it.

Much like Jaime rejecting Cersei, Bran accepting his fate as a Greenseer and Jon becoming increasingly willing to break his vows if it ultimately means saving the realm from the Others, I think we may witness an almost frightening change in Danaerys at the start of TWOW. It won't be a return to her pro-active days in ASOS - it will go beyond them. I suspect that if people believe Dany to be cruel now, it will be nothing compared to how she will behave, now that she's really ready to unleash her inner dragon. She will still fight for what she believes to be just: she'll want to end slavery, she'll believe Aegon to be the Mummer's Dragon and she'll want to re-take Westeros. But I believe we'll also see a Danaerys that will be willing to ruthlessly crush any obstacle that gets in her path.

I think GRRM knew that under the circumstances (Dany deciding to rule in Meereen), in order to solve the Meereneese Knot, something massive needed to happen to get Dany off her butt and head to Westeros. To do that, Dany first needed to be put in an absolutely horrible position, literally and figuratively. I believe George has often mentioned something along the lines of that "The only story worth telling is that of the human heart in conflict with itself". The fact that GRRM recognises this rather than simply giving his readers what they want to read is one of the things that elevates him above many other authors.

[Rhaegarsjoy]

Actually I find Dany stay in Mereen add a lot of depth to both her personnality, the world and how it works.

First it makes Dany the only character feeling the need to learn how to rule a kingdom for the greater good before pushing a claim on the Iron Throne. Which is extremely logical considering she never even ruled a lordship or spent years being member of the council, unlike for example Stannis and Renly. It creates a big difference between Daenerys and unexperienced rulers like Cersei only seeking power for the sake of it (or write her name in history or take revenge against the world). Would Daenerys had moved directly to Westeros (imagining some magical way to make her dragons grow faster) she would have been no more than a Cersei 2.0 or, at best, a Robb (without the excuse of being urged by events into becoming a king), to resume a guaranteed fail. Instead she is learning her trade. And the number of errors she makes, even just ruling one small city, shows how much it was important to do so before being in charge of a 50 times bigger kingdom.

Then all the slavery and peace arcs, describing how a politic inspired by good ideals can end doing making things even worse, is one of the deepest things Martin writes, and makes his world far more realistic than for example Robin Hobb's one (my impression is the whole Ghiscari arc is an answer to The Livership Traders simplistic depiction of slavery as something that just asks for being abolished, as in general ASOIAF is one to "good always win" manicheist fantasy). One of the best passages of the whole serie for me are the ones she has to deliver justice, and thinking about the greater good always end taking decisions that seems completely inhuman in the particular cases she has to judge, showing how much good and wrong are hard to define. Daenerys in Mereen is a permanent political class, and as disturbing it should be in what is showed about the exercise of power. Probably the part of all the books that makes you think the most about real world rulers, history and politics. For me, as annoying some Dany substories may be like her relationship with Daario etc..., her Mereen chapters are one of the most brillant things Martin ever wrote.

Finally there is Esos her stay in Mereen allow to developp, which puts Westeros back into perspective, as one of the many realms of a world most inhabitants don't even care about. And the reactions in Volantis, etc... to show how much something like a promised prince abolishing slavery is far more waited for than just a new king/queen on the iron throne. It also reminds the reader that Dany (imagining she is to fulfill propheties ; or whoever is the chosen) isn't here just to rule Westeros but save that whole world. Dany consideration for Ghiscaris is like Jon consideration for Wildlings, it makes them the few potential rulers who do/will care about humanity as a whole and some kind of greater good. And it's preparing the war with the others in a more meaningful way than rushing to Westeros to bring "fire and blood", like many characters and readers would like Dany to.

:thumbsup:

Well said

[Red Knight]

i think that's intednded to give more story time to people currently in westeros, if dany invaded at once would we see cersei's fall, or margery's chacter, or jamie's struggles...? those are all, you will agree very good stories to be told

[SeanF]

I think you'll find there are plenty of reasons people disliked where Daenerys story went with Daario that had little to do with slut shaming.

I have read some extraordinary vitriol directed at Dany about this, with such descriptions as "slut Queen of Mereen", "skank", and some posters expressing the hope that she'll be forced to become a salt wife, or put in a brothel.

But, there are plenty of very valid reasons to criticise her actions, and a lot of posters who do so in very sensible terms (such as yourself).

[SeanF]

She's entitled to use the Ghiscari as guinea pigs for all I care: Their society was fucked up enough that anything done to it (including obliteration) is a step up.

I'm not happy with the idea that the extermination of entire populations is a positive step, and given what we know of George Martin's politics, I'm quite certain that that's not a message he wants us to get from his story.

[danm_999]

Imo it's a good thing that plot direction isn't decided by fanboy vote.

I don't get all the Daario hate. There isn't a whiny thread about Jon/Ygritte or Sam/Gilly every other day and those are pretty much the same as Dany/Daario.

It helps that Ygritte has been dead for several books. So not sure why you expect Jon/Ygritte to be generating as much discussion as a relationship that's ongoing between two living characters.

As for Sam/Gilly, 'fat pink mast' is one of the most maligned/mocked parts of the entire series.

[Walder Waters]

IMO it was very essential for her story arc and for her character that she did not arrive in Westeros yet. Although I want her to go there I am pretty fine with the fact that she for now did not.

[The Drunkard]

We're supposed to actively root for Daenerys and remain invested in her quest to conquer Westeros.

Are we?

Everything about her story in ADWD comes off as reasoning why we shouldn't be rooting for her return, especially her realisation in her final chapter.

[gougef]

If (and a big if), Dany (unlike Robert) realizes she is a "warrior" not a ruler, a general, gathering forces for the future fight against the Others. Don't know if she can overcome the sense of entitlement.

However, I guess she could have a sudden character/maturity growth spurt.

[GoldenFleece]

If GRRM I using the Hero's journey template, Daenerys is only half way in her arc. Her revelation in the Dothraki Sea is the turning point. She needed a extreme low point before her "revelation", ADWD, was that low point for her. People need to calm down as we have no knowledge of the whole story yet. People detested Theon at the end of CoK, but since we have seen more of his arc, people have softened their stance. Rickon could be and evil vengeful child who rules the North with an iron fist - we don't know the full story yet. Essos was essential for Dany's storyline, particularily if she is the stallion that mounts the world, unites everyone into one nation.