R+L=J v.48

[Fire Eater]

Who's name did he say as he was dying, then?

Rosebud?

[yolkboy]

Rosebud?

ha, brilliant

[WinterKing]

Rosebud?

Perfect!!!

[Malgarroth]

Some people say that it was all about the prophecy because Rhaegar is said to have cared very much for Elia. I don't know if he loved her. But it's possible to love two women anyway.

Aegon + Rhaenys + Visenya?

[yolkboy]

Someone has probably already thought of this, but i haven't seen it... might have some facts mixed up so forgive me.

After tKotLT incident, Rhaegar was sent to find this mysterious person. Is it possible that Rhaegar did infact find tKotLT (Lyanna), and being so impressed, offered to keep her identity a secret?

Could this have been the moment Rhaegar fell for Lyanna, and the reason he subsequently crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty?

[Twinslayer]

Someone has probably already thought of this, but i haven't seen it... might have some facts mixed up so forgive me.

After tKotLT incident, Rhaegar was sent to find this mysterious person. Is it possible that Rhaegar did infact find tKotLT (Lyanna), and being so impressed, offered to keep her identity a secret?

Could this have been the moment Rhaegar fell for Lyanna, and was the reason he subsequently crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty?

I don't think so. The KOTLT left at the end of one day and did not show up the next morning. It was only after the KOTLT failed to show up on the second day that Rhaegar went looking. If it was Lyanna, she never put on the armor the second day, so the chances Rhaegar found her and unmasked her are pretty slight.

[caravaggio]

If Dany's vision from the HotU is correct, Rhaegar knew about the Song of Ice and Fire before Harrenhall. He says of Aegon, "His is the song of ice and fire."

[Twinslayer]

And what does it change? The blood riders didn't find her, either. No search party found her, and Barristan's mission would have been futile. It all boils down to him not knowing where Dany was, which is not a condition applying to the three KG at ToJ.

I think the bloodriders are still looking for her and that they may find her in TWOW.

Like I said, this could take us off topic for the RLJ thread, so I started a separate one. I'd love to get your thoughts on this over there.

[Dragonfish]

This is assuming the KLT is Lyanna, I always assumed it was Howland

Highly unlikely, considering that crannogmen do not have the horseriding skills or experience necessary to compete at jousting.

Regarding the issue of divorce, the following SSM definitely suggests that it exists in Westeros:

"After the birth of her son, [Naerys] begged Aegon to have the Faith release her from her marriage vows so she could become a septa, but he refused."

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Someone has probably already thought of this, but i haven't seen it... might have some facts mixed up so forgive me.

After tKotLT incident, Rhaegar was sent to find this mysterious person. Is it possible that Rhaegar did infact find tKotLT (Lyanna), and being so impressed, offered to keep her identity a secret?

Could this have been the moment Rhaegar fell for Lyanna, and the reason he subsequently crowned her Queen of Love and Beauty?

That's pretty much what I assume happened.

Highly unlikely, considering that crannogmen do not have the horseriding skills or experience necessary to compete at jousting.

Regarding the issue of divorce, the following SSM definitely suggests that it exists in Westeros:

"After the birth of her son, [Naerys] begged Aegon to have the Faith release her from her marriage vows so she could become a septa, but he refused."

Good catch on the Naerys/Aegon thing. Elia bears a lot of resemblance to Naerys, minus the piety, in terms of overall health and her difficulty in bearing children.

[towerofjoy]

My theory is:

1. Rhaegar and Elia was a political match and Aerys' way to slap at Tywin who wanted Cersei to marry the future king. Respectful, honorable, dutiful -- and probably a little grateful not to be saddled with the Lannisters as in-laws and psycho Cersei as wife.

2. Rhaegar is smitten with Lyanna at Harrenhal because he uncovers she was the KOTLT. Appeals to his sense of honor and justice. Because he knows his crazy dad has targeted this knight as an enemy, he can only acknowledge Lyanna with the queen of love and beauty.

3. R+L are infatuated and elope and conceive J, the true prince who was promised and the 3rd head of the dragon. Targs are into both incest and polygamy -- he may not have seen any of this as dishonorable. Also, Dorne is a bit more forgiving on this front as well and not nearly as paternalistic as the other 6 kingdoms. Eg, Elia may not have been as offended as someone else.

4. Rhaegar died on the Trident with Lyanna, his true love, his last word and thought.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Multiple people corroborate Rhaegar's love for Lyanna or at least his fixation with her, and it's implied that her name was the one he spoke when he died. I don't see anything solid that refutes that. And hey, maybe he did run off with her because he was focused on the prophecy. To that I say, are the two mutually exclusive? It's possible for him to want to fulfill the prophecy and be in love with Lyanna.

[yolkboy]

It's possible for him to want to fulfill the prophecy and be in love with Lyanna.

Definitely. And in this case i think the love came first. After all his obsessions/burdens of fulfilling prophesies, i believe Rhaegar's love for Lyanna was born from instinct and desire rather than calculation.

[Alia of the knife]

@Dragonfish, thanks for that piece of information.

@Yolkboy, to concur with others, I assumed the same scenario as well.

Rhaegar is charged by his Father to find the KotLT, but he finds Lyanna instead- and love. That is what drives him to protect her.

Imagine Lyanna thrusting her chin out, and telling him defiantly that she did it for Reeds honor because the Squires and their Masters were stupid bullys, and they had no honor. :devil:

[Jon Icefyre]

The fact that the KINGSguard is at the ToJ is a pretty good indication. There's also the fact that Mormont's raven keeps calling Jon "King," which he would be if the Targs were still the ruling family.

I personally like this gem from Ned's first chapter:

Ned: “Kings are a rare sight in the north.”

Robert snorted. “More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!”

ETA: the fact that Lyanna is highly associated with crowns also speaks to this.

:agree: Love everything you said, and ppl rarely talk about Mormont's raven even though it seems to be one of the more obvious pieces of evidence in the text, especially when you consider the fact that Mormont's raven is highly suspected by some to be Bloodraven.

[Roadside Rose]

Definitely. And in this case i think the love came first. After all his obsessions/burdens of fulfilling prophesies, i believe Rhaegar's love for Lyanna was born from instinct and desire rather than calculation.

:agree: I wonder why people want to see this as some calculative move on Rhaegar's part. Why can't they accept the fact Rhaegar loved Lyanna?

[danm_999]

If love wasn't a factor, why did he pick Lyanna? Abducting her seems to be the most politically disruptive option to fulfill the prophecy one could imagine.

[MasterJack]

If love wasn't a factor, why did he pick Lyanna? Abducting her seems to be the most politically disruptive option to fulfill the prophecy one could imagine.

He might need Stark Blood for the prophecy and Women Stark were quite rare at the time.

And if it is only love; Lyanna is a monster for faking a kidnaping, then let his father and brother be killed for her and finally let Ned ans robert start a war that killed thousand on her behalf.

She had a grudge on Robert or the Stark, or all those death were some kind of blood sacrifice to birth the PTWP... and then i hope Rhaegar had some solids arguments to convince her.

[Ygrain]

He might need Stark Blood for the prophecy and Women Stark were quite rare at the time.

And if it is only love; Lyanna is a monster for faking a kidnaping, then let his father and brother be killed for her and finally let Ned ans robert start a war that killed thousand on her behalf.

She had a grudge on Robert or the Stark, or all those death were some kind of blood sacrifice to birth the PTWP... and then i hope Rhaegar had some solids arguments to convince her.

A little correction here: what got her brother and father killed was Brandon's incredibly idiotic action and Aerys's mad response to it, and what started the war was Aerys' demand that Ned and Robert be executed and Jon Arryn rejecting the order and raising his banners. None of this Lyanna could have foreseen, and most likely didn't learn about any of these until it was too late. Ever since the moment Jon Arryn rebelled, the real reason of her disappearance no longer really mattered, it was either fight or lose heads for rebelling against sovereign.

[Dragonfish]

And if it is only love; Lyanna is a monster for faking a kidnaping, then let his father and brother be killed for her and finally let Ned ans robert start a war that killed thousand on her behalf.

Woah, lots of assumptions here. Where are you getting that Lyanna was faking a kidnapping, or that she let Brandon and Rickard die? We've no idea if Brandon or Rickard even believed there was a kidnapping involved, and we also have no idea if she even knew about their deaths and the beginnings of the war until it was too late.