Purely good/evil?

[Martyz]

I've seen lots of interviews with GRRM, and he says that nothing in the asoiaf universe is purely good or purely evil.

If that's true, what is good about The Others?

The good/evil balance is about that every character has their own sets of morals, and that their actions is based on that. But the others doesn't seem to show any mercy, or have thoughts.

I might have missed something, and would appreciate if you could clearify.

I've read up to the end of A storm of swords, so please, no spoilers beyond that.

[LightSpectra]

We quite honestly don't know enough about the Others to call them pure evil. If there's no more to them than what we think so far, then that means they're simply another species apart from humans that exist with their own morality.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

We don't know.

For all we know, the Others are a peaceful society, where there exists no murder, no rape, no wars, no crime at all. They killed some members of another species. So what? How many steaks did you eat in your life? How many flies did you swat because they were annoying? Does that make you evil?

We don't know anything about the Others.

[Ser Greg of House House]

We know almost nothing of the Others so far. We pretty much only saw them in battle, what would you expect?

[LightSpectra]

Though, I have heavily crackpot'd that perhaps they have no interest in human civilization, and that they were somehow warged by Bloodraven into aggressively trying to invade past the Wall. And maybe the earliest Starks in the Age of Heroes did the same, thus becoming the glorious heroes of the North and the Kings of Winter by defeating the Others. (And then Bran the Builder created the Wall by warging giants, as it were.)

[King of Winters]

Firstly Welcome to the Forum :cheers:

The one thing that redeems The Others is Puddles The Other. All he wanted to do was to help Sam get back to The Wall, and Sam killed him!! He got a Dragonglass blade with hand, and he killed him!!

I don't think The Others are wholly evil. We hardly know anything about them, for all we know they think humans are the evil ones. I think I described it once as Adrian's plan in Watchmen; The Others plan to survive, and would do anything to survive. Yes to may kill millions of people but it saves them.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Anybody remembers Bill Gates and his anti-polio campaign. The guy wants to completely wipe out a species and the entire world agrees with him. He's succeeding at that. What a monster... :cool4:

[I_Do_Not_Sow]

Considering some of the characters he's created, I'm surprised he's said that. There are at least 3 or 4 characters we've seen (Some you haven't been introduced to yet) that seem to just be pure evil and had not had one moment of showing any sort of good. Of course it all depends on how you define those terms but you'll see what I mean.

[thenedstark]

I think the The Great Other/Azhor Ahai dichotomy of Evil/Good is only seen by Melisandre and followers of the Red God since it is a dualistic religion by design. The other characters who follow the old gods/the seven gods most likely do not regard themselves as fighting for the "good" cause and the Others as "evil" as such.

This is a relief since the self-righteousness of the characters in LotR/Silmarllion in their fight against Melkor/Sauron/Orcs got very tiresome after a point.

[Nerolunar]

Hmmm... Gregor Clegane must be pure evil, or just incredibly stupid

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Hmmm... Gregor Clegane must be pure evil, or just incredibly stupid

The guy has health problems. Blinding headaches, probably a side effect of his size. Maybe a tumor. And an addiction to opiates from self-medication. Doesn't excuse anything though.

But it turns somewhat spoilery, which by the way this entire subforum is per definition. The Still Reading subforums should be way safer.

[Masamune]

How can anyone argue that the likes of Ramsay or Gregor are not bad to the bone?

[LightSpectra]

How can anyone argue that the likes of Ramsay or Gregor are not bad to the bone?

Possible mitigating circumstances pertaining to mental impairment or illness means they're not "pure evil".

What exactly "pure evil" means is not really being defined in this thread. Do we mean somebody that's irredeemably 100% set on the path of wrong (which could possibly include Gregor and his men), or are we talking about a literal incarnation of wickedness like Satan?

[Rhaenar]

Considering some of the characters he's created, I'm surprised he's said that. There are at least 3 or 4 characters we've seen (Some you haven't been introduced to yet) that seem to just be pure evil and had not had one moment of showing any sort of good. Of course it all depends on how you define those terms but you'll see what I mean.

In this situation the analogy of Hitler is often used; I think (hope) we all agree that Hitler was a truly evil person who did some terrible things in his life. BUT he was, apparently, a great lover of animals and disliked bringing harm to them. In that sense he could be considered to have some good in him.

According to the legend, Night's King married a female Other and gave himself fully to her. I don't think we know how she felt about this but if she was accepting of this, could there be considered to be some good there?

(admittedly it is only a legend and I'm not sure if the woman has actually been confirmed as an Other - do they have genders? - so this point may be a little shaky).

[mcb]

I've seen lots of interviews with GRRM, and he says that nothing in the asoiaf universe is purely good or purely evil.

Yes, that seems to be his personal philosophy, which I disagree with. George has said, and I quote from memory, "nobody's purely good or purely evil, in the series as in real life. For example, Hitler was kind to animals". (Note that he himself reached for that example, so I'm not the one fulfilling Godwin's Law.) Well, I'm apparently a simpler creature than our favorite writer, and for me Hitler is pure evil, his treatment of animals notwithstanding. As for fictional characters, George's worst are darker than Sauron and Voldemort; he himself may consider Ramsay, Gregor or Kraznys mo Nakloz "dark grey", but I call this color black. If not fuligin.

[Runaway Penguin]

The Others are not purely evil. For example take White Walker 1st Class Puddles. Loving husband and father, on an assignment to keep Great Other's Peace in the Haunted Forest he stumbled upon a group of three suspicious Warmbodies, who made ruckus and generally were very rowdy and tried to assault him with deadly force. In pure self-defense he killed one, and then was murdered by another. We shall never see his likes again :crying:

Now seriously, so far we saw just few Others. Waht if these are just Others equivalent of Qyburn, dabbling in dark arts... Raising wights and so on. Perhaps whoever visits Lands of Always Winter finds out what is really going on? So far, we know just too little.

[BreastplateWithNipples]

Yes, that seems to be his personal philosophy, which I disagree with. George has said, and I quote from memory, "nobody's purely good or purely evil, in the series as in real life. For example, Hitler was kind to animals". (Note that he himself reached for that example, so I'm not the one fulfilling Godwin's Law.) Well, I'm apparently a simpler creature than our favorite writer, and for me Hitler is pure evil, his treatment of animals notwithstanding. As for fictional characters, George's worst are darker than Sauron and Voldemort; he himself may consider Ramsay, Gregor or Kraznys mo Nakloz "dark grey", but I call this color black. If not fuligin.

But what do you mean by "evil"? That you expect their souls to go to hell in the afterlife? That you don't need to regard them as human beings? That anyone who associates with them should, by association, also forfeit his human rights?

[BreastplateWithNipples]

The Others are not purely evil. For example take White Walker 1st Class Puddles. Loving husband and father, on an assignment to keep Great Other's Peace in the Haunted Forest he stumbled upon a group of three suspicious Warmbodies, who made ruckus and generally were very rowdy and tried to assault him with deadly force. In pure self-defense he killed one, and then was murdered by another. We shall never see his likes again :crying:

And now his watch is ended :D

[King of Winters]

And now his watch is ended :D

OH PUDDLES!! We never got to know you they way we should have!

[SilentSense]

Yes, that seems to be his personal philosophy, which I disagree with. George has said, and I quote from memory, "nobody's purely good or purely evil, in the series as in real life. For example, Hitler was kind to animals". (Note that he himself reached for that example, so I'm not the one fulfilling Godwin's Law.) Well, I'm apparently a simpler creature than our favorite writer, and for me Hitler is pure evil, his treatment of animals notwithstanding. As for fictional characters, George's worst are darker than Sauron and Voldemort; he himself may consider Ramsay, Gregor or Kraznys mo Nakloz "dark grey", but I call this color black. If not fuligin.

What Martin probably means is that no real person is a comic book super villain who does bad things 24/7 because he likes doing bad things and nothing else. And that's true.