A King in Hiding: Adding It All Up Part 2

[Winterfellian]

Maybe it's been said already, but in aCoK, when Varys explains his riddle about power, he says power is "a shadow on the wall"...

Interesting. In his first ACOK chapter Jon describes himself as a shadow amongst shadows-

All in black, he was a shadow among shadows, dark of hair, long of face, grey of eye.

[Fire Eater]

Maybe it's been said already, but in aCoK, when Varys explains his riddle about power, he says power is "a shadow on the wall"...

You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you, and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

This quote might have a place in this thread: from Dany's last chapter in ACOK, when Jorah asks her about the mummer's dragon

So if Aegon is the mummer's dragon, who is the hero?

I propose that the hero is Aegon and Dany is the mummer's dragon (now in place of her recently deceased brother Viserys) who has been propped up to the extent that she received aid from Varys and Illyrio for the express purpose of giving their "hero" something to fight.

We all know Varys is a "mummer" and that his motivations as far as Daenerys is concerned are somewhat suspect. He and Illyrio have obviously invested many years in raising Aegon and plotting on his behalf. They have been less involved with Viserys and Daenerys, certainly always aware of their whereabouts but not necessarily taking care of them. We know, for example, that after Ser Willem's death they wandered the Free Cities and had the sell of their mother's crown and jewels. Hardly the existence of children who had expectations of retaking their birthright with the help of loyal friends.

In this sense, Dany is truly a dragon who is the puppet of the mummers. Their "hero" (fAegon) is the centerpiece of their folly and not necessarily anything more than a character created for their own purposes.

In support of this I draw your attention to the scene in The Hedge Knight

where Egg brings Dunk to the aid of Tanselle. When Dunk arrives on the scene, Aerion and his followers have scattered the puppets on the ground and are in the process of burning Florian and Jonquil. The dragon puppet is in pieces with a broken wing. Moments later, Tanselle has her fingers broken by Aerion. Dunk intervenes to save Tanselle and then must in turn be saved when Egg, the one who brought him there, reveals his true identity.

Is it possible this story foreshadows a scenario where Dany is threatened by fAegon (the "older brother" a la Aerion Brightflame), only to be saved by the agent of Jon Snow who, in so doing, reveals Jon's true identity?

[Stillhasclaws]

Apple Martini on 27 January 2013 - 10:28 PM, said:

Harlaw, on 27 January 2013 - 09:59 PM, said:

Jon accepts Longclaw, but he thinks, "Lord Eddard Stark is my father. I will not forget him, no matter how many swords they give me." I think this is a pretty good indicator that while Jon will accept Rhaegar is his father, he won't forget Ned.

Good one, especially because it's common for men swearing fealty to say something like, "My sword is yours," in some variation. So "no matter how many swords they give me" can refer to either literal presented swords, or the figurative allegiances that a king or prince would receive.

I don't know if this was said in the last thread, but the iron throne is literally made from a thousand swords. So by saying this, the meaning could be that even if they give him the throne, he won't forget what Ned taught him.

[Iroh]

I propose that the hero is Aegon and Dany is the mummer's dragon (now in place of her recently deceased brother Viserys) who has been propped up to the extent that she received aid from Varys and Illyrio for the express purpose of giving their "hero" something to fight.

We all know Varys is a "mummer" and that his motivations as far as Daenerys is concerned are somewhat suspect. He and Illyrio have obviously invested many years in raising Aegon and plotting on his behalf. They have been less involved with Viserys and Daenerys, certainly always aware of their whereabouts but not necessarily taking care of them. We know, for example, that after Ser Willem's death they wandered the Free Cities and had the sell of their mother's crown and jewels. Hardly the existence of children who had expectations of retaking their birthright with the help of loyal friends.

In this sense, Dany is truly a dragon who is the puppet of the mummers. Their "hero" (fAegon) is the centerpiece of their folly and not necessarily anything more than a character created for their own purposes.

Yeah, I can agree with you in many points:

- Illyrio and Varys are so good/huge players how could they did so many mistakes with Viserys and Daenerys

- Your idea suits Varys style...Varys can create a bad scenario for a hero show up...but not so bad that his "hero" can´t handle/overcame.

- "Dany is truly a dragon who is the puppet of the mummers" about this idea is the first time I see...Dany was nothing for them..they had their Aegon but all the game changed with the birth of the dragons and so any man who marry Dany will be the King.

- I always though the Dunk&Egg story... foreshadows something really important...I bet it is something simple and obvious like the thing about Mance/Abel/Bael.

But about : " Is it possible this story foreshadows a scenario where Dany is threatened by fAegon (the "older brother" a la Aerion Brightflame), only to be saved by the agent of Jon Snow who, in so doing, reveals Jon's true identity? "

I really would love if the author steal your idea...I don´t see enough hints for that...but as a fantasy reader would be perfect. Many people think that Dany will save the day...Dany is a queen/conqueror but she is still a girl/princess and I hope a real hero save her from all the dangers(there is something far worse the fAegon..something that Moqorro/Marwyn know) and even from herself. So Jon as Rhaegar son need to kidnap her... like his dad did with Lyanna.

[Prince of the Green]

If I recall correctly, Jon slept in a cell underneath the main chambers in the King's Tower, both when Mormont was stationed there (after the fire in the Lord Commander's quarters) and when he was able to do so during the battle with Mance. I don't have my book on me at the moment, but you'd have to assume (yes, I know, ass, you, and me) that the King's Tower's roof was covered in snow.

Might tie back in to Robert's quote from Game.

[Lady Cersei]

I'm a newcomer in the forum and I've been always interested in re-reading the books and this topic it' very interesting. I've found an interesting parallelism between Aegon and Jon Snow while they're meeting Tyrion.

Aegon’s mouth twisted in fury. “I will not come to my aunt a beggar. I will come to her a

kinsman, with an army.”

“A small army.” There, that’s made him good and angry. The dwarf could not help but think of

Joffrey. I have a gift for angering princes.

-A Dance With Dragons, p.255

Tyrion is thinking of Joffrey, but if you remind, Tyrion manages to piss off Jon as well in A Game of Thrones, in a very similar way. He has undermined the confidence they had in their projects and ideals, and both get...a little mad.

Later he says:

“I hope Your Grace will pardon me. Your king is trapped. Death in four.”

The prince stared at the playing board. “My dragon—”

“—is too far away to save you. You should have moved her to the center of the battle.”

“But you said—”

“I lied. Trust no one. And keep your dragon close.”

Young Griff jerked to his feet and kicked over the board. Cyvasse pieces flew in all directions,

bouncing and rolling across the deck of the Shy Maid. “Pick those up,” the boy commanded.

He may well be a Targaryen after all. “If it please Your Grace.” Tyrion got down on his hands and

knees and began to crawl about the deck, gathering up pieces.

“Stop it,” Jon Snow said, his face dark with anger. “The Night’s Watch is a noble calling!”

Tyrion laughed. “You’re too smart to believe that. The Night’s Watch is a midden heap for all the misfits of the realm. I’ve seen you looking at Yoren and his boys. Those are your new brothers, Jon Snow, how do you like them? Sullen peasants, debtors, poachers, rapers, thieves, and bastards like you all wind up on the Wall, watching for grumkins and snarks and all the other monsters your wet nurse warned you about. The good part is there are no grumkins or snarks, so it’s scarcely dangerous work. The bad part is you freeze your balls off, but since you’re not allowed to breed anyway, I don’t suppose that matters.”

“Stop it!” the boy screamed. He took a step forward, his hands coiling into fists, close to tears.

Suddenly, absurdly, Tyrion felt guilty. He took a step forward, intending to give the boy a reassuring pat on the shoulder or mutter some word of apology.

He never saw the wolf, where it was or how it came at him. One moment he was walking toward Snow and the next he was flat on his back on the hard rocky ground, the book spinning away from him as he fell, the breath going out of him at the sudden impact, his mouth full of dirt and blood and rotting leaves. As he tried to get up, his back spasmed painfully. He must have wrenched it in the fall. He ground his teeth in frustration, grabbed a root, and pulled himself back to a sitting position. “Help me,” he said to the boy, reaching up a hand.

And suddenly the wolf was between them. He did not growl. The damned thing never made a sound. He only looked at him with those bright red eyes, and showed him his teeth, and that was more than enough. Tyrion sagged back to the ground with a grunt. “Don’t help me, then. I’ll sit right here until you leave.”

Jon Snow stroked Ghost’s thick white fur, smiling now. “Ask me nicely.”

Tyrion Lannister felt the anger coiling inside him, and crushed it out with a will. It was not the first time in his life he had been humiliated, and it would not be the last. Perhaps he even deserved this. “I should be very grateful for your kind assistance, Jon,” he said mildly.

- A Game Of Thrones, p.87

Wow...

[Pikachu101]

Rhaegar and Lyanna were most probably married ;)

Can we prove that? Because I know for sure Aegon's going to want evidence, and Jon's going to struggle with giving proof of his heritage let alone his legitimacy.

If it comes to the worst Aegon's going to execute him for treason. Or Jon can use his brain and keep his mouth shut; there's already two Targs

[King of Winters]

Can we prove that? Because I know for sure Aegon's going to want evidence, and Jon's going to struggle with giving proof of his heritage let alone his legitimacy.

If it comes to the worst Aegon's going to execute him for treason. Or Jon can use his brain and keep his mouth shut; there's already two Targs

We can find proof, the Kingsguard provides proof for us. They wouldn't stay there protecting a Targ bastard when they could have gone to Dragonstone where Viserys and Rhaella were. Ser Dayne and Whent might have stayed there afterwards because they were Rhaegar's friends, but not Ser Gerold Hightower. He was th LC and would have marched them to Viserys, who would have been the rightful King if Jon was a bastard.

And if Jon has to prove it to people (I don't think he and Aegon will ever meet) he can tell and show them Lyanna's tomb, as I think there is something in here about Lyanna and Rhaegar's marriage and love for each other. Jon has dreams of going down to the Winterfell crypts and saying he doesn't belong there. I think there is something in Lyanna's tomb that will show everyone proof of Jon's real parentage.

[Vuron]

Doreah in GoT..

Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return.

Mel in ADWD..

You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you, and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall.

[jenerationx]

Doreah in GoT..

Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return.

Mel in ADWD..

You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you, and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall.

!! Love it. This makes Jon the symbolic sun that will melt winter/bring forth dragons?

There's a chance, of course, that GRRM doesn't intend or even remember using that before, but it does seem like a really odd thing for Mel to point out. What's the context for what Mel says? Why does she say it? It does seem really random (at least out of context) to the point where it must be meaningful, but maybe I'm just indulging in wishful thinking!

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Doreah in GoT..

Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return.

Mel in ADWD..

You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you, and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall.

I disagree with Jon Snow being the sun in Doreah's story, I think that was just the foreshadowing of Dragons returning.

However "The moon has kissed you" seems an interesting quote though.

[Vuron]

I disagree with Jon Snow being the sun in Doreah's story, I think that was just the foreshadowing of Dragons returning.

However "The moon has kissed you" seems an interesting quote though.

It is possible that Jon is the "Son" in the story.

The moon kisses the son, he is cracked from the knives, and the dragon pours out.

[Pikachu101]

We can find proof, the Kingsguard provides proof for us.

No one has batted an eye to the KG being there for 15 years because it doesn't prove anything. Rhaegar could tell them to guard his captive; KG follow orders of the Crown Prince.

And in all honesty that doesn't prove Jon himself is the product of their affair.

And if Jon has to prove it to people (I don't think he and Aegon will ever meet)

Oh I think Aegon would want to meet the Northern bastard whose trying to take his throne.

he can tell and show them Lyanna's tomb, as I think there is something in here about Lyanna and Rhaegar's marriage and love for each other.

For the sake of good writing I hope this doesn't happen. Nothing worse than it being a walk in the park for Jon to prove his legitimacy.

Also what could possibly be in the tomb that Aegon can't destroy or brand as lies?

A will? We've seen how easily wills can be tossed to the side and it still proves nothing.

I think there is something in Lyanna's tomb that will show everyone proof of Jon's real parentage.

Well I think there isn't because it just screams bad writing and lets Jon have a cliche, walk in the park, ignoring the GoT ending.

[King of Winters]

No one has batted an eye to the KG being there for 15 years because it doesn't prove anything. Rhaegar could tell them to guard his captive; KG follow orders of the Crown Prince.

And in all honesty that doesn't prove Jon himself is the product of their affair.

The Kingsguard's number one priority is to protect the King, it's in the name. Ser Arthur Dayne and Whent may have stayed there after Rhaegar died because they were friends, but Ser Gerold wasn't a close friend to him. Ser Gerold wouldn't stay there protecting a Targ bastard, not when he knew Viserys, who would have been King is Jon is a bastard.

And are you saying Jon isn't R+L's? Because if then...

Oh I think Aegon would want to meet the Northern bastard whose trying to take his throne.

Aegon will have his hands full with trying to conquer the South before he evens thinks about marching to the North. And when Dany shows up, she'll be his main priority and starts the Second Dance of the Dragons with him.

For the sake of good writing I hope this doesn't happen. Nothing worse than it being a walk in the park for Jon to prove his legitimacy.

Also what could possibly be in the tomb that Aegon can't destroy or brand as lies?

A will? We've seen how easily wills can be tossed to the side and it still proves nothing.

Who says it will be Jon to be the one to find out about Lyanna's tomb? Howland Reed might appear (at last) when Stannis takes Winterfell, and before Jon arrives there, and seeing as he could be part of the GNC so when the Northern Lords reveal Robb's will, he might know of Lyanna's tomb secret.

There could be a Targ wedding cloak in there, and possibly Torrhen's Crown.

Well I think there isn't because it just screams bad writing and lets Jon have a cliche, walk in the park, ignoring the GoT ending.

Well you don't know how GRRM will write it. You can't just say it's bad writing to say it won't happen. It would make sense for something about R+L to be in Lyanna's tomb because of the dreams Jon has about afraid to go down to the crypts.

[intheswamp]

Crackpot theory alert:

What if Mel's ruby is the 7th ruby from Rhaegar's breastplate? I don't know how'd she get it, but, as she repeatedly states, there is power in king's blood, which was all around Rhaegar when he died. And, it just so happens that Mel and her ruby are at the Wall with Jon, who she keeps getting visions about.

[yolkboy]

Crackpot theory alert:

What if Mel's ruby is the 7th ruby from Rhaegar's breastplate? I don't know how'd she get it, but, as she repeatedly states, there is power in king's blood, which was all around Rhaegar when he died. And, it just so happens that Mel and her ruby are at the Wall with Jon, who she keeps getting visions about.

Rhaegar had a lot more rubies than seven. They made up a dragon picture. The idea that there was 7 comes from the septon - he is ONLY looking for 7, that's where the misconception comes from.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

It is possible that Jon is the "Son" in the story.

The moon kisses the son, he is cracked from the knives, and the dragon pours out.

I think the story has already occurred.

The moon is Dany (moon of my life) and the "sun" is Drogo/ Drogo's funeral pyre (My sun and stars).

Dany kissed/married the fire, hence "bride of fire" and brought dragons back into the world.

The moon kissing Jon, I think is reference to him when he wargs a wolf, the moon is always talking to him when he wargs a wolf.

[ReekGreyjoy]

I thought of a simplistic connection of Jon Snow to the Targaryens and specifically to a marriage with Daenerys Targaryen-- the girl "kissed by fire", Ygritte. Ygritte is not only red(dragon)-haired, but she's also independent and boisterous, scornful of "kneelers". She wouldn't be kneeling if she was Queen... Daenerys Targaryen + Jon Snow, anyone? I can't be the first to point it out. As a little side note, recall that Ygritte and wildlings in general -- with a strong connection to Jon Snow -- are woefully ignorant of the politics and general shape of Westeros, just like the Meereenese and the Dothrakis.

If that ship does sail, there's no question that they'd be powerful, perhaps even King and Queen.

[Pikachu101]

Ser Gerold wouldn't stay there protecting a Targ bastard, not when he knew Viserys, who would have been King is Jon is a bastard.

That can easily be explained by saying the KG were following orders till the very end. And this still doesn't explain why Jon himself is the product of R+L.

And are you saying Jon isn't R+L's? Because if then...

I do think R+L=J is true, what I don't believe is something as ridiculous as King Jon Targaryen; the whole idea destroys the whole purpose of the GoT

Aegon will have his hands full with trying to conquer the South before he evens thinks about marching to the North.

Well if a Northern bastard thinks he's Rhaegar's son, I think I'd know where my priorities lied.

And when Dany shows up, she'll be his main priority and starts the Second Dance of the Dragons with him.

And why do you think Dany would kill her only remaining family who is the only possible way to continue the Targaryen line?

Also I can totally see Dany teaming with Aegon if he tells her there's some bastard who thinks he's Rhaegar's son. She'll instantly assume Jon's the mummer's dragon.

Howland Reed might appear (at last) when Stannis takes Winterfell, and before Jon arrives there, and seeing as he could be part of the GNC so when the Northern Lords reveal Robb's will, he might know of Lyanna's tomb secret.

1. The GNC is going to be made void the minute Davos turns up with Rickon

2. Why do you insist on destroying such a complex story line in order to make the hero's life a walk in the park?

3. There's nothing of value in the tombs that could ever make anyone believe Jon is Rhaegar's son

There could be a Targ wedding cloak in there, and possibly Torrhen's Crown.

Targ cloak proves nothing, especially when Aegon, Dany, Sansa and Rickon are in the picture. Torrhen's Crown is just wishful thinking, I have seen absolutely no logic in how Rhaegar would have it and why Ned would keep something so dangerous to Jon.

Well you don't know how GRRM will write it. You can't just say it's bad writing to say it won't happen.

Don't know about you but I've read ASOIAF and I know George doesn't let characters have a walk in the park. I also know he's constantly reminding readers that the GoT and its players decide who sits on the IT.

It would make sense for something about R+L to be in Lyanna's tomb because of the dreams Jon has about afraid to go down to the crypts.

Or those dreams could just show how much Jon doesn't feel like he belongs in WF because he's a bastard and is constantly reminded of it.

I'm going to be so disappointed if George decides his characters are dumb enough to believe R+L=J based on some cloak found by either a Crag man or a bastard. I'm also going to be confused as to why Ned would keep anything that would threaten Jon; this man wouldn't even tell his own wife because of his paranoia