The Freys[Book Spoilers]

[Ferrum Aeternum]

I took it as a bit of a "Lol it looks like that's come back to bite me in the ass."

Yes, pretty sure his smile was intended to be ironic.

[StarkTagaryen]

so I guess the Red Wedding will end the season? idk

but when Robb mentioned the Freys I had to cover my eyes and yell NOOO

[zaphodbrx]

The Freys were run by the "late Walder Frey" who never quite showed up even during Robert's Rebellion. He was like Sir Robin of Camelot who nearly fought the Chicken of Bristol. The Frey's make their nut by guarding the crossing. Not by taking chances in battles. Even when the Frey's were "firmly" on Robb's side they did not contribute except by allowing his passage.

That's only for the show.

In the books they were 100% and more behind supporting Robb. There were Freys in every army Robb had. Frey knights fought with valor in every battle. Eg., Black walder scaled the walls at the Crag. The eldest son and heir died in one of the battles.

I'm sorry to say but in the books Robb betrayed them very, very badly. It's not that he deserved the RW but he really shouldn't have let his dick do his thinking for him. Like, really.

TV-Robb is a mixedbag. On one hand he's not really dependent on the freys very much ( they don't exist in the show yet outside of one S1 episode ), but on the other he is more or less a complete moron. I mean, take this new 'plan' for instance.- 'Hi there, ole bridge troll. Sorry bout yer daughter, hey look can you support me in attacking Casterly rock. Cause I lost half my men due to being an idiot, ha.'

[Bizzy]

Lol, the Freys wear still the silly heads from Season 1, no blue und grey Clothes like nobles:

What I personally don't understand is, in the series the frey army goes with him in Season 1, why does he needs to get them now? They never run away from him.

And the most silly thing for me: Karstark = half of Robbs Army(!) - what the fuck? Bolton treason, Karstark Hate(Karstark seems to be a gigantic and powerful house, maybe they rule over the half north, too....), seems like the TV Robb deserves his death, since more then half of the north hates him. Only Manderly and Reeds like him, yes and his own relatives (Tully).

Not that they already introduced House Glover, Morment and Umber in Season 1 (Even House Bracken), seems they dissapeared into the earth. And Robbs Army was mainly Karstark and Bolton and few Tullys.....

I really liked that episode, but this details.... how will they get the hole "the north remembers thing" ? The north seems to remember only that Robb is a idiot, since nearly half of the north are Karstarks and the other houses don't exist any more.

[Harrad]

That's only for the show.

In the books they were 100% and more behind supporting Robb. There were Freys in every army Robb had. Frey knights fought with valor in every battle. Eg., Black walder scaled the walls at the Crag. The eldest son and heir died in one of the battles.

Just looking at the wiki for the Freys shows that is selective memory. For examples:

"Robb acknowledged that the Freys fought bravely at the Battle of the Whispering Wood where Ser Stevron was in command. Meanwhile Cleos and Tion had fought on the other side under their cousin the Kingslayer, and were captured along with him. Emmon Frey also fought on the Lannister side of the war.

After the fall of Winterfell and the Lannister victory over Stannis, the Freys in Roose Bolton's army believed that Robb should bend the knee."

A bit less than 100%. Frey never committed his full force to Robb. Just as in the Rebellion he hedged his bets.

[Relic]

This show is making Robb Stark look like a giant idiot. He seems genuinely surprised that the Karstark men leave (and it turns out they are HALF of his forces all of a sudden? smooth move) and his huge "epiphany" about Casterly Rock is just flat out laughable. It's like he suddenly realizes it's there for the first time. Not like he was at the Crags last season or anything. And his master plan for taking CR? Frey men. Riiiiiiight.

[cuendillar]

Just looking at the wiki for the Freys shows that is selective memory. For examples:

"Robb acknowledged that the Freys fought bravely at the Battle of the Whispering Wood where Ser Stevron was in command. Meanwhile Cleos and Tion had fought on the other side under their cousin the Kingslayer, and were captured along with him. Emmon Frey also fought on the Lannister side of the war.

After the fall of Winterfell and the Lannister victory over Stannis, the Freys in Roose Bolton's army believed that Robb should bend the knee."

A bit less than 100%. Frey never committed his full force to Robb. Just as in the Rebellion he hedged his bets.

Not sure if that was fully Walder's idea though. All those mentioned are descendants to Genna Lannister, except her husband Emmon. Considering she's pretty much the matriarch of that family, I just don't see them going any other way. They're all more Lannisters than Freys, no matter their last names.

[Nudu]

The scene was just stupid. Robb just realized there was a Casterly Rock to attack and he should gain Frey men in 5 minutes? He never tought about attacking Casterly Rock before? What he was thinking about? Birds?

[Mammothsbane]

"Hah! I have a great idea! I'll get the people I completely fucked over last season to break me out of my dilemma!"

RIP Robb

Seriously. This.

Just looking at the wiki for the Freys shows that is selective memory. For examples:

"Robb acknowledged that the Freys fought bravely at the Battle of the Whispering Wood where Ser Stevron was in command. Meanwhile Cleos and Tion had fought on the other side under their cousin the Kingslayer, and were captured along with him. Emmon Frey also fought on the Lannister side of the war.

After the fall of Winterfell and the Lannister victory over Stannis, the Freys in Roose Bolton's army believed that Robb should bend the knee."

A bit less than 100%. Frey never committed his full force to Robb. Just as in the Rebellion he hedged his bets.

Some Frey's were more into than others. Stevron Frey was pretty high in Robb's command before he died.

[Tadco26]

It was a silly part of an otherwise great episode. But TV Robb has been annoying since season 2. He is also so much more of a hypocrit by marrying and breaking his oath even after council from his mother and knowing that his men don't like Talisa before hand. The show definitely should have found some screen time to explain that the Freys left Robb, because they really don't make it clear at all. In fact I had to go back and look at the scene from episode 9 of season 1 to even verify that the Frey's had given any troops in the first place, and they did. The idea that attacking Casterly Rock just came to him now after he was already in the far west at the Crag...

It was a good episode, but it's hard to save TV Robb's character now from feeling like he deserved betrayal from the Freys after betraying them first.

[Alester Florent]

I'm only mentioning this because its a book spoiler thread. Lysa is a foaming at the mouth isolationist, at least in the books. There is no chance to bring the Arryns into the fold while she lives, there is a reason that Robb doesn't go to them, it's pretty well known. Otherwise you'd think Catelyn's sister would come her aid.

Yeah, the Vale surely has bigger armies to offer. Justifying rapprochment with the Freys over they size of their forces is unaccurate (and unnecessary, if Robb wants Arryn help he'll need the Crossing on his side anyway).

EDIT: And that's not even considering Lysa's rabid isolationism, as lil points out. Still, they need to develop it.

Maybe not the Arryns themselves, but there might be Vale lords who are more willing to help out. We know that a number of Vale houses were itching to join Robb's army earlier in the war, so if Robb went to the Vale in person he might succeed in winning some of them to his side.

Looking back at the point Robb was crowned King, after Lysa had refused to help, the Riverlords didn't follow the Tullys - they declared for Robb as soon as the cry went up. If Robb approached the Vale as a whole and as a potential king (considering most of the Vale lords presumably believe the Lannisters, the only other viable option, murdered their last lord), he might have more luck than he did in trying to recruit the Vale as an ally via Lysa.

Of course, this is all hypothetical, and I understand why it didn't get discussed on the show, etc., but if he's going to the Freys, a house he's already pissed off, for more troops, you'd have thought it would be worth at least considering the Vale first, since many of the lords there actively want to get involved.

[Frey Pie a la Mode]

At this point, I suddenly wondered if the RW is going to be a W at all?

There could be the set-up of Robb going to Walder Frey to ask him to commit the forces necessary to take Casterly Rock. They all have a big dinner together. Boom.

This would make sense to me in the spirit of simplification that the show has been engaging in, making changes to the books but still getting to the same place in the end. At the end of this scenario, Robb and Cat still end up dead and Walder has his revenge for getting dissed.

Of course, the RW is one of the most iconic events in the whole series, but more for the fact of its outcome than that it was a wedding. I'm not sure what happens with Edmure in this, but he could end up as a hostage anyway.

[bobbybuilderton]

Well Robb has been pretty poorly handled in the show, in terms of plot. Acting or whatever is fine I guess, but they jumbled his story.

I also thought the smile was kind of a "lol wow karma's a bitch, huh?" smile. There's no way he's so stupid. As for not realizing he can attack Casterly Rock, I believe Tywin was previously out with his forces and Robb was just focused on getting the king's landing to free Ned/get his sisters. Why would he think a trip to Casterly Rock benefits him? It's the hail mary play of a man with no options left. On a related note, I noticed some good ole foreshadowing in this episode, namely with the parallels between Robb and Theon. Robb's scene mirrors Theon's beheading of Rodrik.

In Theon's scene, his adviser telling him to ignore his instincts and saying "No, holding him captive is not good enough, he needs to die"

In Robb's scene you have his adviser telling him to ignore the way he was raised and saying "No, you can't kill him, it will end badly."

In Theon's scene, he listens to his adviser and takes Rodrik's head, and it ends badly.

In Robb's scene he does not listen to his adviser, takes Karstark's head, and it will end badly.

It rained in both scenes

In both scenes, it was more about sending a message than the principle.

In both scenes you have an old warrior guy who gives last words that they hope will haunt the man swinging the sword.

Even the music is the same. So they draw the parallels to Theon's most damning decision in order to indicate how extremely screwed Robb is.

[TFP]

He doesn't seem to expect them to be *that* angry.

Makes me think they'll play up tywin's role in egging the Freys on.

[Greyjoy67]

@ all the folks saying it's inaccurate to call them neutral.

How is it?

In season 1, Robb says "can we not expect their support" and is told "to expect nothing of Walder Frey". He gets a bridge for a marriage, that's all, not a pledge of troops. In the series they're a bit more vague on that than the book, but that's what they imply I think.

So the Freys ARE neutral. In the series, Robb has just sorta tried to forget about them/ignore them for a while.

[bobbybuilderton]

@ all the folks saying it's inaccurate to call them neutral.

How is it?

In season 1, Robb says "can we not expect their support" and is told "to expect nothing of Walder Frey". He gets a bridge for a marriage, that's all, not a pledge of troops. In the series they're a bit more vague on that than the book, but that's what they imply I think.

So the Freys ARE neutral. In the series, Robb has just sorta tried to forget about them/ignore them for a while.

Nope they are not neutral in any sense of the word. Catelyn said "Lord Walder has granted you crossing. His men are yours as well--less the four hundred he will keep here to hold the Crossing against any who would pursue you."

Soooo....the Freys were definitely on their side. Or at least acting in ways that the Lannisters would interpret as on their side.

[Birdsong65]

Ultimately, the deviations between bookRobb and HBORobb are such that the only truly devastating element of the HBORW is not the

deaths of Robb and Catelyn, but of Catelyn alone, clearly the greatest victim of HBORobb's hubris. It's hard to imagine HBORobb as anything other than deserving in some way which is a completely abhorrent suggestion as scripted in the novels. I think they are leaving little doubt to even those who have not read the novels that Robb is not long for this world, and it is this lack of book subtlety which should stand as just one of the reasons viewers should read the novels at some point. You really miss out otherwise.

[Randyll Tarly]

Nope they are not neutral in any sense of the word. Catelyn said "Lord Walder has granted you crossing. His men are yours as well--less the four hundred he will keep here to hold the Crossing against any who would pursue you."

Soooo....the Freys were definitely on their side. Or at least acting in ways that the Lannisters would interpret as on their side.

Indeed and besides, who wouldn't do or act the same as the Freys??? Their daughter was literally boosted to become lady and later on queen. Something that the Freys were pursuing since their birth if I am not mistaken and then all of a sudden wonder boy decides to marry in the name of love. Please, wake kid! The only reason I would actually talk or even look at the guy who broke such a promise would be under the certainty that he will definitely go down for his love.

[zaphodbrx]

Well Robb has been pretty poorly handled in the show, in terms of plot. Acting or whatever is fine I guess, but they jumbled his story.

I also thought the smile was kind of a "lol wow karma's a bitch, huh?" smile. There's no way he's so stupid. As for not realizing he can attack Casterly Rock, I believe Tywin was previously out with his forces and Robb was just focused on getting the king's landing to free Ned/get his sisters. Why would he think a trip to Casterly Rock benefits him? It's the hail mary play of a man with no options left. On a related note, I noticed some good ole foreshadowing in this episode, namely with the parallels between Robb and Theon. Robb's scene mirrors Theon's beheading of Rodrik.

In Theon's scene, his adviser telling him to ignore his instincts and saying "No, holding him captive is not good enough, he needs to die"

In Robb's scene you have his adviser telling him to ignore the way he was raised and saying "No, you can't kill him, it will end badly."

In Theon's scene, he listens to his adviser and takes Rodrik's head, and it ends badly.

In Robb's scene he does not listen to his adviser, takes Karstark's head, and it will end badly.

It rained in both scenes

In both scenes, it was more about sending a message than the principle.

In both scenes you have an old warrior guy who gives last words that they hope will haunt the man swinging the sword.

Even the music is the same. So they draw the parallels to Theon's most damning decision in order to indicate how extremely screwed Robb is.

Indeed.

Another parallel is that both of them want to strike at the 'hometown' of the enemy ( Winterfell, Casterly rock )

And will pay dearly for it.

[Randyll Tarly]

Indeed.

Another parallel is that both of them want to strike at the 'hometown' of the enemy ( Winterfell, Casterly rock )

And will pay dearly for it.

Thus the curse of Harrenhal takes its pay from the young wolf.