[Book Spoilers] Loras and Alleged Character Assassination

[juanml82]

But that's not what Book Loras did. He did take a Chastity vow. He took the white!

Then again, the supression of Willas and Garlan accounts for the variations in TV Loras. Basically, Loras has now to play Willas' part in the show.

I suppose the beef between Martells and Tyrells will be played with the death of Willas in the joust with Oberyn.

But this isn't the books we're discussing. It's the show, which is a different, related, story. It doesn't have to be consistent with the books, it has to be consistent with itself.

The issue is whether by the Reach's gay subculture having sex with a random stranger months after a loved one was assassinated means the man having sex didn't really loved him. Or whether we find it coherent. And, I'm sorry, I don't see Loras having sex as a sign that he didn't love nor isn't hurt by Renly's death. But there is just so much time they can dedicate to each character and given how Loras is a support character, it makes sense for the show not to dwell too much in his feelings.

They had to remember the audience he's gay and they had to let LF know about the betrothal without dumbing down Sansa. Mission accomplished by Loras moving on.

[Lord Godric]

But this isn't the books we're discussing. It's the show, which is a different, related, story. It doesn't have to be consistent with the books, it has to be consistent with itself.

The issue is whether by the Reach's gay subculture having sex with a random stranger months after a loved one was assassinated means the man having sex didn't really loved him. Or whether we find it coherent. And, I'm sorry, I don't see Loras having sex as a sign that he didn't love nor isn't hurt by Renly's death. But there is just so much time they can dedicate to each character and given how Loras is a support character, it makes sense for the show not to dwell too much in his feelings.

They had to remember the audience he's gay and they had to let LF know about the betrothal without dumbing down Sansa. Mission accomplished by Loras moving on.

I don't think the problem is *just* that Loras had sex with someone else. It's that his character was changed very early on to be someone who didn't necessarily have to even care about Renly. He wasn't shown in a relationship with Renly because he really loved him, it was from their first scene together in Season 1, a political arrangement. Then we didn't see Loras rage after Renly was killed. In fact, we hardly saw him mourning at all besides one scene with Margaery which again played up the political elements. And none of these scenes particularly bothered me because I imagined the Tyrells were just politically scheming the whole time and we just were seeing a side of them we didn't have the opportunity to see in the books.

But now this added to it. The mere mention of Renly's name in the books makes Loras sad and he has that line: "once the sun sets no candle can replace it." Do we get that same idea here? Is he even shown to care about Renly now? Or ever? It's a large departure from who he was in the books.

[LuisDantas]

Most non-POV characters suffered some degree of adaptation. Just because Loras made the sun-candle comment once it does not mean that he is above being a sexual being - particularly given that he has not taken Kingsguard vows in King's Landing yet.

It may grow, but it is a minor deviation from his character in the books as of now. Arguably no deviation at all, even. Jaime, Catelyn, Jon, Stannis, Davos and arguably Sansa, Margaery, Selyse, Shireen and Bronn have all been through far more significant changes.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

Like I said in another thread, it's pretty naive of us to think that Loras didn't "sheath his sword" in anyone else after Renly's death. Just because GRRM didn't write a scene in the books expressing this, didn't mean it couldn't have happened. He's a young, red-blooded male. It's much more unrealistic that he would become a chaste monk at his age and with his supposed legendary beauty.

[Mark Antony]

Like I said in another thread, it's pretty naive of us to think that Loras didn't "sheath his sword" in anyone else after Renly's death. Just because GRRM didn't write a scene in the books expressing this, didn't mean it couldn't have happened. He's a young, red-blooded male. It's much more unrealistic that he would become a chaste monk at his age and with his supposed legendary beauty.

I very highly doubt it happened tbh but it's not that big a deal to me.

[MarieAntoinette]

This.

People are making a bigger deal out of Loras than they remember. He's hardly noticeable in the books. He is more prominent on the show. They changed his character to reflect that. Big deal.

Yes. I don't think that Loras was a very well-developed character in the books. He is one of the characters that I don't care about, so I don't mind the changes.

[Joyful Union]

I very highly doubt it happened tbh but it's not that big a deal to me.

Why not? Apart from that poetic trash candle quote, which could easily just have been said to persuade people that he is no longer having sex with men, what is there? His other scenes were all much sooner after Renly's death, so it makes sense he would be grieving then. In any case, it's not like this sort of thing doesnt happen in the books. Tywin was a man who seemingly was chaste, and hated whores. I refuse to accept that Loras would never have sexual partners again, especially at his age, and more than a year after Renly's death, it isnt realistic! This Loras also isnt a teenager, so he's much less likely to be enthralled by that sort of overblown romantic tosh.

[Khal Porno]

char·ac·ter as·sas·si·na·tion

Noun

The malicious and unjustified harming of a person's good reputation.

Changing a character to be different from his book counterpart is not the same as "character assassination." I would like nothing more than to strangle whoever started this trend of misusing the term here.

[Baratheon3508]

Maybe we can agree that it's not "character assassination" per se, but that is does take away somewhat from Loras' one very redeeming quality, his sense of loss and grief for Renly, and that the show could have kept the sex in but just change Loras' attitude a bit in it to make him seem less cheerful and completely over it.

It upsets me that some people's arguments are often "minor character = why should we care about how they are portrayed." The fact that you can get attached to the minor characters is one of the amazing thing about the world that GRRM has created.

He does have some character in the books- he's one of the only couple of people we know in a relationship for love- which is highly unusual in the asoiaf world, and this is why I think this scene was poorly executed.

[Khal Porno]

Well as Tyrion points out in the books, that sentiment that Loras expresses is naive and won't last.

And it may be surprising to some, but people (and even fictional characters!) often say one thing and then do something completely different.

[Winter's Knight]

It's not just the candle line though, it's his coolness to Sansa when she innocently mentions how sad Margey must be, it's his blind anger against Brienne, his words to Jaime about Renly's tomb, his vow to never betray him by word or deed ("he was the best of them") and his attack on Dragonstone which at least in part is motivated by his desire for vengeance against Stannis.

Loras grieves for Renly well past the end of Storm and his casual bedding of the squire in this episode feels as forced and out of character as Cat assigning her family misfortunes to her inability to love Jon.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I thought the candle line meant something along the lines of him not wanting to/not being capable of loving anybody like he loved Renly. Him rolling around with some random guy isn't at all the same as him being in love with another dude.

hell maybe he will fell he's disrespecting Renly by having a one night stand and that will be the catalyst for him joining the Kingsgaurd, if he does so at all.

[Songlian]

does take away somewhat from Loras' one very redeeming quality, his sense of loss and grief for Renly,

I thought his swordsmanship was his own redeeming quality. That and his cheekbones. :P

[Lord Varys]

The problem with the depiction of Loras in the show is not just the candle quote, although that's very enlightening. There is also the fact that book Loras slew two of his fellow Rainbowguards because they failed to protect Renly. And he personally buried Renly all by himself at a secret place near Storm's End where they often went when Loras served as Renly's squire at Storm's End.

All those events signify how devoted Loras was to Renly, even beyond death. Loras may be homosexual and young in the books, but he does not seem to be the type who looses all of his wits when he sees a nice face (granted, Loras is not the smartest guy under the sun, but he is not stupid). No one says that Loras is intended to remain celibate all his life, but it's obvious in the book that he still mourns Renly during ASoS, and is not intending to enter into another relationship (let alone to entertain himself with meaningless sex - that's not the kind of thing you usually do when you mourn a dead lover!).

As to the whole Kingsguard thing: It makes no sense to take a Kingsguard vow as seriously as some people seem to do here. Loras has already sworn a Kingsguard vow before he enters Joffrey's Kingsguard. He was Lord Commander of Renly's Rainbow Guard/Kingsguard, and this did not prevent him from continuing his relationship to Renly. In fact, it was the best way for these two to continue said relationship. Entering Joff's Kingsguard was only fitting after the Tyrells switched to the other king because Loras could not honorably return to pre-Kingsguard/Rainbowguard life.

And this whole stupid change to make Loras heir to Highgarden makes no sense whatsoever because by joining Renly's Kingsguard in the show and marrying Margaery to Renly the Tyrells obviously lost both of Mace's children to court life. This makes them utterly stupid. Lets hope that Garlan and/or Willas remain as younger siblings to Margaery and Mace.

The only reason I can come up with for this travesty of character depiction is that they obviously wanted to make Sansa appear less stupid. They kept yet another talk with Sansa and Littlefinger in the show just to show the audience that Sansa is not as stupid as to tell Littlefinger why she does not want to leave the capital. This could have been done much better.

They really should have introduced us to the Tyrell match much earlier, then they could have given us Sansa's rejection of Littlefinger's offer much sooner, which in turn could have enabled them to show us Littlefinger's motivation to investigate the reason behind Sansa's sudden change of heart. Instead he is only brought into this through Cersei. It completely destroys the core of this whole plot. Littlefinger is the one who orchestrates the Sansa-Tyrion marriage to get what he wants, not other way around.

[TomBadgerlock]

I bet there is not a single person in this thread who has not either themselves or known someone who, after a break-up or other form of heartbreak had one or more casual affairs.

(In the show) Loras loved Renly, but you don't need to love someone to have sex with them.

[Lord Martin Sheol]

I bet there is not a single person in this thread who has not either themselves or known someone who, after a break-up or other form of heartbreak had one or more casual affairs.

(In the show) Loras loved Renly, but you don't need to love someone to have sex with them.

That's in our culture, in our modern, materialistic, hedonistic culture. He didn't break up with Renly, Renly was murdered. That's not the same. Have you mourn for the death of a loved one? Do you know the feeling? It does not inspire one to have sex... I agree with those who say that it was a rush move to make things happen faster. Sansa only speaks to Ser Dontos on the books because she's not really convinced in marrying Willas, while she would have no doubt at all in marrying Loras, so she had no reason to be dumb and tell Littlefinger about her engagement. I don't know why you find it so very hard for people, even young people, to be celibate, even nowadays we have celibacy, and while not all keep it through, many and more does.

[Joyful Union]

That's in our culture, in our modern, materialistic, hedonistic culture. He didn't break up with Renly, Renly was murdered. That's not the same. Have you mourn for the death of a loved one? Do you know the feeling? It does not inspire one to have sex... I agree with those who say that it was a rush move to make things happen faster.

It's been a few months it not like it just happened. Also, Robb had sex with Jeyne after learning about his brothers death, so according to GRRM it happens. Though ofc Robb wasnt as happy as Loras.

[SerMixalot]

I know that many people are of the opinion that Loras jumping into bed with a squire amounts to character assassination. I don't really see it that way - it's been months since Renly died and I see this as just a rebound that doesn't need to take away from his love for Renly. He'll still have chances to show his devotion to Renly, such as confronting Brienne when she shows up in KL.

The one thing I could see is criticism that this perpetuates stereotypes of gay men being willing to jump into bed with anyone who strikes their fancy. But, I think it was handled well and doesn't necessarily suggest that any more than the heterosexual men jumping into bed with women who strike their fancy.... and practically all of them but Jaime have show the propensity to do that.

He already has stated that he doesnt hold brienne responsible

[TomBadgerlock]

That's in our culture, in our modern, materialistic, hedonistic culture. He didn't break up with Renly, Renly was murdered. That's not the same. Have you mourn for the death of a loved one? Do you know the feeling? It does not inspire one to have sex... I agree with those who say that it was a rush move to make things happen faster. Sansa only speaks to Ser Dontos on the books because she's not really convinced in marrying Willas, while she would have no doubt at all in marrying Loras, so she had no reason to be dumb and tell Littlefinger about her engagement. I don't know why you find it so very hard for people, even young people, to be celibate, even nowadays we have celibacy, and while not all keep it through, many and more does.

Again loving feeling is not equal to sexual feeling. One can still mourn a death or a relationship and have sexual desires.

There is no reason to assume that after Renly's death Loras went celibate. There is also no reason to assume he turned into a sex maniac. And frankly, it doesn't really matter. The show went one way. Who cares.

[Winter's Knight]

1. "Who cares about Loras' character" is rather a silly question, especially when you're talking to a bunch of folks who have made it clear that they care.

2. The complaint is not just that he slept with a random squire but that he did so with a callow ness that doesn't chime well with his devotion to Renly. And it wasn't just a one-off, he specifically mentions to Oliver that they'll need to keep future meetings a secret from his wife.