Why do so many people think, Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly?

[nirolo]

You mean behave like Barristan after Robert's death, and not like Barristan after Rhaegar's death when he accepted a pardon and the end of the Targaeryans.

Thank you for the correction, that is what I meant. :laugh:

For context, this is just after the visit to the brothel with Littlefinger where Ned met the young prostitute who had one of Robert's bastards.

"She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding that rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lust?"

In this quote, Ned is clearly associating Jon Snow with bastards, and not just because Ned has "condemned Jon Snow to the life of a bastard", but rather because he is the product of men's lust that lead to bastards.

To be honest, this one is harder to explain away. I have it listed as ambiguous.

I guess I could make the argument that the reason Ned recalls Jon's face is because of Chataya, whose smile and innocence reminds him of Lyanna, and not because Jon is a "bastard". And the last sentence of the passage where Ned reflects on lust is directed at Robert, thus separate from Jon.

Not sure how convincing this explanation is...

I do hope you keep on asking this question until you get a convincing answer, or you convince others that Jon is indeed illegitimate.

I'm on the camp that Jon is legitimate simply because I think it does a nice succinct job connecting all the dots around the ToJ scene.

[nirolo]

I think a better question is, why do people think Rhaegar abducted her against her will when the only people saying that are Robert (who wants to believe it) and Bran (who has second- or third-hand information)? Just about everyone else strongly implies that whatever they had was consensual.

Consensual does not necessarily mean Jon is legitimate, right?

[The guy from the Vale]

Consensual does not necessarily mean Jon is legitimate, right?

No. But the question is would Lyanna have agreed to being Rhaegar's mistress instead of his wife, considering her complaints about Robert?

[nirolo]

No. But the question is would Lyanna have agreed to being Rhaegar's mistress instead of his wife, considering her complaints about Robert?

Yes. That would be the next logical question.

To be honest, my gut feeling is "HELL NO".

But I can't defend it with anything concrete other than the psychological profile we might glean from the one instance where she revealed her thoughts on Robert.

We know Lyanna didn't love Robert, so could she have listed promiscuity just as an excuse for not wanting to marry him?

[therustman]

Unless Lyanna was a total lackwit, she would have informed someone (her Father or brothers) that she did it out of choice, in order to prevent a war.

Anyway, wolves are highly cautious animals.

..Benjen and why he took the Black?

[Castellan]

She appeared to fall for him at the Harrenhal tourney. when he did his little troubador thing.

He crowned her the queen of love and beauty at this tournament.

She was betrothed without consultation.

She told her brother Ned she thought Robert would not be a good husband. He cut off the conversation with his feeble response.

She had a reputation as wild as in free and determined.

She may have even entered a tourney as a mystery knight.

Rhaegar had the reputation of a true knight - chivalrous, and attracted the loyalty of the same.

Some of these cream of chivalry were guarding Lyanna at the Tower of Joy.

Granted, we can't be sure that she was in love with him, or that he really loved her and wasn't just making the opening moves in getting a new wife so he could have a third child he thought was essential.

It has crossed my mind that someone else actually kidnapped her and he kidnapped her back. eg Aerys or Varys or someone who didn't like his plans for her may have taken her. I think we hear about the kidnapping from word of mouth of witnesses at Winterfell that some of his men came and got her but I don't think they were KG. Can't remember and don't really care, just thought I'd add this idea to the general confusion.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

They married in secret, polygamy is not forbidden in Westeros, there's no law against it

it was not just a common thing

but Martin said some other Targaryens married more than one woman at the same time

[nirolo]

You mean behave like Barristan after Robert's death, and not like Barristan after Rhaegar's death when he accepted a pardon and the end of the Targaeryans.

Anyway, here is the quote I mentioned earlier.

From Eddard 9:

"She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding that rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lust?"

For context, this is just after the visit to the brothel with Littlefinger where Ned met the young prostitute who had one of Robert's bastards.

In this quote, Ned is clearly associating Jon Snow with bastards, and not just because Ned has "condemned Jon Snow to the life of a bastard", but rather because he is the product of men's lust that lead to bastards.

If we interpreted that quote to mean Jon is a bastard, then the implication from it would imply that Jon is the product of Rhaegar's lust. Yet we know Ned judges Rhaegar to be someone who did not frequent brothels. I take this to mean that Rhaegar is a stand-up guy, someone who doesn't lust after girls. I hope this explanation does a better job at explaining why the quote does not necessarily mean Jon is a bastard, since the implication from that interpretation does not match what we know about Rhaegar.

Sorry for the second post.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Consensual does not necessarily mean Jon is legitimate, right?

No, but that wasn't what I was arguing there, is it? I mean I think he is legitimate but he's not any more or less legitimate solely because Lyanna may or may not have gone willingly.

[nirolo]

No, but that wasn't what I was arguing there, is it? I mean I think he is legitimate but he's not any more or less legitimate solely because Lyanna may or may not have gone willingly.

Of course not. To suggest otherwise would be ridiculous.

[Leagon]

..Benjen and why he took the Black?

Benjen probably shoulda told his big bro, Brandon, instead of allowing him to get murdered.

Or he should've told their father, Rickard, who went to defend Brandon.

Or he should've told his other brother, Ned, who fought and killed for a year then lost 5 of his best friends in order to save the same sister that didn't need saving at all.

Or he should've told Robert Baratheon, who basically threw his entire life away because of a false kidnapping. If Robert knew what was in store for him, he probably would've just answered Aerys' summons and been executed, instead of dying slowly and painfully at Cersei's hands.

Basically, if Benjen knew and didn't say anything at any point, he's among the most morally bankrupt character in the series.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Of course not. To suggest otherwise would be ridiculous.

Then why did you ask? :dunno:

[nirolo]

Then why did you ask? :dunno:

Mental fart. On my part.

I doubt you'd be interested, so I didn't explain...

[TheWanderer]

If they preferred honourable death over their duty to guard the king, then they broke they vows - only, they specifically mention that they keep their vows, so this is not the case.

1) Unless the vow they are referring to is their vow to serve the king, which they choose to keep by obeying Rheagar's last order to them.

2) Or they realize that they aren't able to defend the actual king because they don't have the time or ability to get to Dragonstone and...

3) Honourable and well-regarded knights are hardly going to go "Well, we fucked up and now we're oath breakers" just before they die. Just because they say they aren't breaking their vows doesn't mean they aren't. People lie all the time, to themselves most of all.

Because Rhaegar doesn't seem as psychopath who would call a place where he repeatedly raped some woman "Tower of Joy."

Rhaegar didn't name the tower that, that's just what it's called. Sure it seems a strange place to take a kidnapping victim, but then it is also a strange place to hold a secret wedding.

Lyanna goes missing about a year after Harrenhall

If about a year passed between Harrenhal (where she and Rhaegar apparently fell madly in love) and Lyanna's disappearance, then that is a year she spent planning her elopping. A year spent planning but apparently she was too caught up in her 'hormones' to bother to tell her family, or even think about what their response might've been. Those are some pretty powerful hormones she's got there. And then of course she never made any attempt to contact them, or get Rhaegar to, despite the fact that her entire family (as well as about half the kingdom) was in mortal peril over her decision.

I think a better question is, why do people think Rhaegar abducted her against her will when the only people saying that are Robert (who wants to believe it) and Bran (who has second- or third-hand information)?

As well as her brother and father, who both go so far as to demand her return from the king.

A war was started over this. It seems like it was the common opinion of what happened.

Also: If what Lyanna and Rhaegar had was legitimate and legal why did they hide it? Rhaegar is legally allowed to take multiple wives and Lyanna is engaged but not married. Sure their wedding would piss Robert, as well as possibly Rickard Stark (who would get over it), Jon Arryn (who might not even be that pissed) and the Martells (who still have the royal heir so they likely wouldn't be that ticked), off but probably not enough to start a war (and even then, probably a war they could win). By having Lyanna disappear and then not discuss with anyone what is going on they piss off most of those people anyway and give a pretty reasonable pretext for a war the kingdoms may be looking for (as well as a reason to dislike Rhaegar who otherwise would've been a pretty popular choice to replace his father).

[Dagon Greyjoy]

We've been in Ned Stark's head, and he holds little if any ill-wil towards Rhaegar Targaryen. Had Rhaegar actually kidnapped and raped his sister, Ned's opinion of him would be more on the lines the one King Bob got.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

As well as her brother and father, who both go so far as to demand her return from the king.

A war was started over this. It seems like it was the common opinion of what happened.

Correction: Her hothead brother went down to demand her return. Her father went down to fight for her brother. In any case, I don't see what Brandon — kind of known as impulsive to say the least — did to mean much in terms of consensual vs. not. He may not have had good information, either, or didn't care if he did.

Also: If what Lyanna and Rhaegar had was legitimate and legal why did they hide it? Rhaegar is legally allowed to take multiple wives and Lyanna is engaged but not married. Sure their wedding would piss Robert, as well as possibly Rickard Stark (who would get over it), Jon Arryn (who might not even be that pissed) and the Martells (who still have the royal heir so they likely wouldn't be that ticked), off but probably not enough to start a war (and even then, probably a war they could win). By having Lyanna disappear and then not discuss with anyone what is going on they piss off most of those people anyway and give a pretty reasonable pretext for a war the kingdoms may be looking for (as well as a reason to dislike Rhaegar who otherwise would've been a pretty popular choice to replace his father).

Remember that strictly speaking it wasn't the abduction that caused the war — it was Aerys executing the Starks and calling for Robert and Ned's heads. The start of the war is measured from the time Jon Arryn called his banners, not when Rhaegar and Lyanna ran off together. Do you think Rhaegar and Lyanna could have reasonably foreseen that it would go that far? Frankly at this point I think we simply don't know enough about what happened to make the kind of conclusion you are. Maybe they tried to tell people and the message was lost. They in all likelihood had no idea that Aerys would go that crazy. And Aerys was already using Elia and her children as hostages — is it that much of a stretch to think he wouldn't want Lyanna and her children to end up the same way? They had pretty good reasons to stay hidden from both sides.

[Dagon Greyjoy]

Do you think Rhaegar and Lyanna could have reasonably foreseen that it would go that far?

Definitely not: They would have expected the Starks to demand the King's Justice for the kidnapping... And then be informed that there was no such kidnapping, that Lyanna willingly eloped with Rhaegar and became his second wife. They probably didn't give the explanation themselves in case the Starks did to Lyanna what Hoster Tully did to Lysa.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Definitely not: They would have expected the Starks to demand the King's Justice for the kidnapping... And then be informed that there was no such kidnapping, that Lyanna willingly eloped with Rhaegar and became his second wife. They probably didn't give the explanation themselves in case the Starks did to Lyanna what Hoster Tully did to Lysa.

And Brandon didn't exactly handle it in the most level-headed way, either.

[lynxx]

Where's Howand Reed when you need him?

[Ygrain]

1) Unless the vow they are referring to is their vow to serve the king, which they choose to keep by obeying Rheagar's last order to them.

2) Or they realize that they aren't able to defend the actual king because they don't have the time or ability to get to Dragonstone and...

3) Honourable and well-regarded knights are hardly going to go "Well, we fucked up and now we're oath breakers" just before they die. Just because they say they aren't breaking their vows doesn't mean they aren't. People lie all the time, to themselves most of all.

1) They also swear to take no wife, win no glory etc, much like Nightwatch. Now, if they find themselves in a situation when they are unable to follow all the parts of their oath, which one should they break and which one should they keep? What is the essence of KG vows? To guard the king – that’s the reason why the KG institution was established in the first place.

2)They had known what happened even before Ned arrived. Task being difficult doesn’t mean that they are absolved of it.

3) Not in character with what kind of people these three were held to be. At least they wouldn’t brag about not breaking the oaths if they did.

Rhaegar didn't name the tower that, that's just what it's called. Sure it seems a strange place to take a kidnapping victim, but then it is also a strange place to hold a secret wedding.

It’s what it was called by Rhaegar. And calling “Tower of Joy” a place where you married a person you love is not strange in the least.

If about a year passed between Harrenhal (where she and Rhaegar apparently fell madly in love) and Lyanna's disappearance, then that is a year she spent planning her elopping. A year spent planning but apparently she was too caught up in her 'hormones' to bother to tell her family, or even think about what their response might've been. Those are some pretty powerful hormones she's got there.

And how do you know she didn’t leave a message to Rickard and that Brandon didn’t just screw up because he felt offended?

And then of course she never made any attempt to contact them, or get Rhaegar to, despite the fact that her entire family (as well as about half the kingdom) was in mortal peril over her decision.

As well as her brother and father, who both go so far as to demand her return from the king.

A war was started over this. It seems like it was the common opinion of what happened.

Her family was in mortal peril because Aerys demanded heads of innocents and in response to that, Jon Arryn rebelled. At that moment, Lyanna’s reasons didn’t matter any more – Aerys had to crush the rebels defying his authority, the rebels had to fight if they wanted to keep their heads on their necks.

Also: If what Lyanna and Rhaegar had was legitimate and legal why did they hide it? Rhaegar is legally allowed to take multiple wives and Lyanna is engaged but not married. Sure their wedding would piss Robert, as well as possibly Rickard Stark (who would get over it), Jon Arryn (who might not even be that pissed) and the Martells (who still have the royal heir so they likely wouldn't be that ticked), off but probably not enough to start a war (and even then, probably a war they could win). By having Lyanna disappear and then not discuss with anyone what is going on they piss off most of those people anyway and give a pretty reasonable pretext for a war the kingdoms may be looking for (as well as a reason to dislike Rhaegar who otherwise would've been a pretty popular choice to replace his father).

You are missing the Aerys factor – he is above Rhaegar, and can thwart whatever Rhaegar does.