[Book Spoilers] Foreshadow of Robb...

[Caesar Augustus]

Earlier on in Season 2 Theon beheads Rodrick Cassel in the rain . This marks the beginning of Theon's downfall.

In this scene Robb beheads Rickard Karstark also in the rain.

In both this scenes the same music is playing. I think this is forshadowing Robb's demise (RW) as it was almost identical to Theon's scene. The only difference is Robb didn't botch the beheading.

Rodrik Cassel death: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfAUgtGy9zU

Karstark death: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=st_xd-azsjw

Exact same music.

Thoughts?

[AliKat]

The interview with the writer he said that they didn't want Robb's beheading to be as messy in the show as it was in the books (in the books Robb used an ax, it took multiple strikes, and he was covered in blood) because they already had a messy beheading with Theon. He also thought the good job Robb did with almost the same wording Ned used, reflected what he did learn from Ned Stark and the bad job Theon did showed what he didn't learn from Ned. (also Theon was really pushed into that by his second in command so he wasn't really 100% committed IMO and likely regretted it soon after) I also think they did that beheading to amp up the hatred and emotional impact since Rodrik was a beloved Stark character, the kids were watching, Bran was pleading for his life, and the people of Winterfell had to all watch.

Karstark wasn't really loved by any viewers since all he'd done was be angry about his sons. (they didn't show him before that)

Maybe that music is the 'beheading song' lol I do like that they showed Robb so visably upset afterwards and the clenching of his hand was comparable to the fact he had a shaky hand when deciding to call the banners in S1 and Theon said that showed he wasn't stupid.

[bobbybuilderton]

I brought this up in the foreshadowing thread.

Some great foreshadowing is how Robb's scene mirrors Theon's beheading of Rodrik.

In Theon's scene, his adviser telling him to ignore his instincts and saying "No, holding him captive is not good enough, he needs to die"

In Robb's scene you have his adviser telling him to ignore the way he was raised and saying "No, you can't kill him, it will end badly."

In Theon's scene, he listens to his adviser and takes Rodrik's head, and it ends badly.

In Robb's scene he does not listen to his adviser, takes Karstark's head, and it will end badly.

It rained in both scenes

In both scenes, it was more about sending a message than the principle.

In both scenes you have an old warrior guy who gives last words that they hope will haunt the man swinging the sword.

Even the music is the same. So they draw the parallels to Theon's most damning decision in order to indicate how extremely screwed Robb is.

I've just found out the music during Theon and Robb executions is called Pay the Iron Price. Yep, Robb will pay the iron price for this decision...

Oi, I just noticed another parallel. Rodrik spits in Theon's face and gets hit for it, Karstark gets punched for calling Robb "boy"

[I'll pay the iron price]

Robbs problem is that he is his fathers son! - Both Ned and Robb were so concerned about their honour and "doing the right thing". Sometimes in war you have to let things slide rather than punish as you would in peacetime.

[Frumpus]

I don't know if its foreshadowing or not. I guess it could be.

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

I thought rain is a pretty typical literary and artistic device that is used to foreshadow death or a great change. My daughter is watching Lost and every time it rains, I tell her "Watch out! Somebody's going to die." and they usually do.

When I watch Robb's scene though I was thinking very much about Ned's execution in the first episode. I didn't think of comparing it to Theon's until I read the writer's interview. The fact that it evoked Ned's actions, to me, moreso foreshadows Robb's fate than the relationship to Theon, who is still alive.

[KoishNoish]

Although I think rain is commonly used to display this kind of scene I do agree that in a sense there is foreshadowing. I mean the beheading by Theon was where things turned bad for him and that's exactly what's going on with Robb from now onwards. Pretty sure foreshadowing was put in but they didn't make it a certainty to be linked.

[Montey14]

Earlier on in Season 2 Theon beheads Rodrick Cassel in the rain . This marks the beginning of Theon's downfall.

In this scene Robb beheads Rickard Karstark also in the rain.

In both this scenes the same music is playing. I think this is forshadowing Robb's demise (RW) as it was almost identical to Theon's scene. The only difference is Robb didn't botch the beheading.

Rodrik Cassel death: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=KfAUgtGy9zU

Karstark death: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=st_xd-azsjw

Exact same music.

Thoughts?

Robb's demise is forshadowed when he broke his commitment to Frey....he might be a very good tactician on the battle field(blackfish helps alot) but politcal and diplomatic tact are not a stark strong suit.....

[wolverine]

Robbs problem is that he is his fathers son! - Both Ned and Robb were so concerned about their honour and "doing the right thing". Sometimes in war you have to let things slide rather than punish as you would in peacetime.

At some point you start to look weak if your bannermen can do whatever they want disobeying your explicit commands while questioning your leadership.

[Kienn]

Isn't that same music played like twice in every episode though?

[AdiTarg]

Where is the great jon?

I don't get why all the men that surrounded Robb in early seasons are gone. Maybe I'm too picky.

[Dove]

Yeah, he won't be in this season. :|

I understand how big of a pain it is to keep all the extra characters straight but I'm smarting a bit from a lot of Robb's allies being cut from the show. Especially Dacey Mormont nooo

Apparently they casted Manderly's son, though? He might make an appearance soon. That's at least one named bannerman this season besides Karstark and Roose.

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

I thought the same music playing was lazy, if anything. That music was so totally linked to Theon in my mind during season 2 that I just found it distracting in this scene.

Thought it was rushed too.

[Sullen]

I thought the same music playing was lazy, if anything. That music was so totally linked to Theon in my mind during season 2 that I just found it distracting in this scene.

Thought it was rushed too.

Same here.

I thought the comparisons with Theon were waaaaay too heavy-handed, and Theon's theme really felt forced there.

[AliKat]

I miss the Greatjon. And wish they had shown Dacey and Maege Mormont as well as Smalljon.

[Kasrith]

I really liked Olenna's "A royal wedding is safer don't you think? (paraphrase)" to Tyrion

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

At some point you start to look weak if your bannermen can do whatever they want disobeying your explicit commands while questioning your leadership.

True, but I still think Robb made a mistake. Holding Karstark as a hostage to guarantee the loyalty of his men is the type of realpolitik his other bannermen would have understood, and not misunderstood as weakness. But wasn't the real reason he did it -- in the book at least -- was because he didn't want the Lannisters to use it as an excuse to harm his sisters? By taking Karstarks life, he did justice for the killing of the Lannister boys.

[TheDarkOne]

The music is all through the show, it's typically the "Heavy drama event" music. Just like they have the "Bad guy" ominous music for Stannis or anything spooky.

[Tori Targaryen]

I thought the same music playing was lazy, if anything. That music was so totally linked to Theon in my mind during season 2 that I just found it distracting in this scene.

Thought it was rushed too.

Yeah I was confused about this too. That theme is the one used for Theon, and is basically the darker version of the 'What is Dead May Never Die' theme that was used in the last season. So I was baffled to hear it reused. Either the composer was too lazy and just reused it because it was dramatic, or whatever music he had done wasn't seen as adequate so they plucked it from season 2.

It was baffling for me though because I'm a soundtrack lover, in general, and hearing this (if I didn't already know what was going to happen) I'd have thought oh that's interesting, the Greyjoy theme was used. Does this mean something bad is going to happen to Robb concerning the Greyjoys because of this? But sadly, it isn't that.... It's just laziness. Even if there is meant to be a direct link between this scene and Theon's scenes, they didn't need to go as far as placing in the music. I'd have put something with The Rains of Castamere, but subtly. Then it's foreshadowing.

[Broken Fox]

Yeah I was confused about this too. That theme is the one used for Theon, and is basically the darker version of the 'What is Dead May Never Die' theme that was used in the last season. So I was baffled to hear it reused. Either the composer was too lazy and just reused it because it was dramatic, or whatever music he had done wasn't seen as adequate so they plucked it from season 2.

Or they just thought it worked for the scene.