Heresy 53

[King Tyrion VIII]

I'd really like to hear BranVras's ideas about Benjen and Rickon. I wish he was around more often.

Yep, good one, but he's got a long way to go and no Joffrey with his crossbow.

Joffrey kills Ros with a crossbow? Nice :)

[wolfmaid7]

Ahhh Ros death saddened me,being in KL is dangerous for your health.I was very interested in the conversation Mel had with Arya can anyone recall what she said? I the show was being drowned out by some horrible electric guitar and i forgot to DVR the dang thing.

[redriver]

Ahhh Ros death saddened me,being in KL is dangerous for your health.I was very interested in the conversation Mel had with Arya can anyone recall what she said? I the show was being drowned out by some horrible electric guitar and i forgot to DVR the dang thing.

To paraphrase,Mel told Arya that she sees a "darkness" in her and in that darkness eyes staring back at her,brown eyes,blue eyes,green eyes.Eyes that Arya would shut forever.

Also that they would meet again.

[Associate Maester]

Site's obviously been off all day again...

Well its interesting on two counts. First she presumably thought Thoros couldn't do it at all because he is still only human. Secondly its the number of times involved, which suggests first that she has the power or at least thinks she has the power to raise the dead, (she obviously hasn't tried it herself) and is astonished and a little but miffed because its a difficult trick even for demons and here's this drunken (human) reprobate pulling it off every time he breaks wind

What I took from the scenes with the BWB is that Mel was surprised Thoros could raise someone from the dead--let alone that many times. Given that he is a drunk and didn't take his mission seriously. That is consistent with the books where Thoros was such a troublemaker they sent him to Westeros to convert, Aerys I believe. So Mel is beyond surprised that someone with limited magical ability (taking into account book canon) and a nominal believer has resurrected someone six freaking times.

[Melifeather]

A few comments before I lose my train of thought...regarding Thoros and Beric...I have a suspicion that Thoros has been able to resurrect Beric due to, not only fire magic, but ice magic also. I think our clue is Beric's penchant to sit amongst the weirwood roots in the cave beneath High Heart. Melisandre is confused because she doesn't know how it's possible. She has been able to draw life from other people to create her shadowbabies, but we haven't seen her resurrect anyone.

Then there's the Targaryens who believed they could be reborn through fire. How many ways can fire produce a second life? Doesn't fire consume?

Regarding Melisandre's words to Arya regarding the brown, blue and green eyes...I got the sense that the show was trying to convey one of two things scenarios...Was Melisandre seeing Bran, Bloodraven and Jojen through Arya's eyes, similar to her fire vision in the book. If that's true, then will Arya kill those three??? Or, were they laying a foundation for when Arya trains as a Faceless Man?

[Lord Flashheart]

Joffrey kills Ros with a crossbow? Nice :)

Who wants to bet Tywin takes that crossbow away from Joffery and stores it...oh I dont know in his personal living quarters? For use at a later date.

[Vegeta_Greyjoy]

I'm not too sure about that... Mel and Stannis act very strangely after the battle on the blackwater. By the time Davos is rescued and brought back San's tales make me suspect that maybe... Stannis took a mortal wound near the end and was drug back to dragonstone "dead".

I know this is crackpot, and the exact quotes are fuzzy in my mind. Oh I found it on my audiobook..

"what do you mean he sees noone."

"noone but her.. " "The guards keep all others away, even his queen and little daughter. Servents bring meals that noone eats. Queer talking I have heard of hungry fires within the mountain and how Stannis and the red woman go down together to watch the flames. There are shafts they say and secret stairs down into the mountain's heart into hot places where only SHE may walk unburned. It is enough and more to give an old man such terrors sometimes he can scarcely find the strength to eat."

This is the time that Stannis can now see things in the fire.. I am thinking maybe He is fire shadow at this point.

Holy shit.

Regarding Melisandre's words to Arya regarding the brown, blue and green eyes...I got the sense that the show was trying to convey one of two things scenarios...Was Melisandre seeing Bran, Bloodraven and Jojen through Arya's eyes, similar to her fire vision in the book. If that's true, then will Arya kill those three??? Or, were they laying a foundation for when Arya trains as a Faceless Man?

I thought she was eluding to her Faceless Man training because she said 'eyes you'll close forever'.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Who wants to bet Tywin takes that crossbow away from Joffery and stores it...oh I dont know in his personal living quarters? For use at a later date.

Oh that would be great :)

[Tyryan Lannister]

Who wants to bet Tywin takes that crossbow away from Joffery and stores it...oh I dont know in his personal living quarters? For use at a later date.

Oh that would be great :)

:agree:

[Snow Whyte]

Ha ha, Chekhov's crossbow?

Anyway:

A few comments before I lose my train of thought...regarding Thoros and Beric...I have a suspicion that Thoros has been able to resurrect Beric due to, not only fire magic, but ice magic also. I think our clue is Beric's penchant to sit amongst the weirwood roots in the cave beneath High Heart. Melisandre is confused because she doesn't know how it's possible. She has been able to draw life from other people to create her shadowbabies, but we haven't seen her resurrect anyone.

Then there's the Targaryens who believed they could be reborn through fire. How many ways can fire produce a second life? Doesn't fire consume?

Regarding Melisandre's words to Arya regarding the brown, blue and green eyes...I got the sense that the show was trying to convey one of two things scenarios...Was Melisandre seeing Bran, Bloodraven and Jojen through Arya's eyes, similar to her fire vision in the book. If that's true, then will Arya kill those three??? Or, were they laying a foundation for when Arya trains as a Faceless Man?

It'd be interesting if there were some combination of ice and fire magic in the "lightning lord." But I'd say otherwise, yes, fire consumes. Dondarrion "loses a part of himself" every time he's resurrected. Stannis can't give Mel any more shadows, because his "fires burn too low." Mel's glamour of Rattleshirt into Mance for the burning ceremony "cost her." But I think what happened with Beric might be termed "miraculous," in the sense that it was a somewhat unorthodox result of what was believed to be merely a "last rite" for the dying. Now, could be that what is now known only as the "Last Kiss" was once the Kiss of (Burning) Life, but its purpose was forgotten, like so many other things, as magic waned in the WoIaF. Thoros is goin' old school, man! ;-)

[Black Crow]

There's two ways of looking at this one. Master Benero's rant includes the promise that death will bend the knee, which suggests that he (and Mel) knows the trick but there hasn't been enough magic going around to pull it off until now, but the other way, and in my view the more likely is that it works both ways.

Thoros unwittingly did it first time around because he thought he was giving his friend a last communion and was suitably astonished when Beric not only lived through the night but sat up again. The point being that leaving aside the rising level of magic the ritual was intended as just that, a last communion, not a pick-me-up. Was it originally intended to suck the life force from the dying?

We've talked before about Ice and Fire being equal and opposite and also how the Otherlanders may suck the life force from their victims in vampire fashion - so presumably if this is so then there's no reason why the Red lot shouldn't do the same.

[wolfmaid7]

Hooray for re-runs i got to watch it again without the concert.First i'm going to say that Mel's perception of Thoros and Thoros perception of himself reminds me of the Pharasiee and the man by the well in the bible. The Pharasiee was self righteous about his status while, the man by the well was humble in his struggle to do the lord's will.

Clearly,Mel with her " you should not have this power" either meant two things; first she thought him unworthy and or she thought that him being human meant he shouldn't have this power.

Way to break the mold Thoros,think the god's are replacing their no it all "semi immortals".

When it came to Arya now that i saw it again i get the feeling those are people she will kill.

[Lannister Hamster]

doesnt Mel see 'Arya' in the flames at the end of book 5 - but it turns out to be the Karstark girl?

[Black Crow]

In her ADwD POV chapter, but of course she hasn't yet met her in the book. The scene in the show is an amalgamation of various elements with Mel substituting for the Ghost of High Heart at that point.

[Lannister Hamster]

Of course - but if we are talking about the tv episode (which I have not watched, but gleaned from teh previous comments) then why would she not believe she would see her again in the flames in this manner.

It's a simpler explanation than saying that D&D are forshadowing events in the last 2 books.

[Hrafntýr]

It does raise the question of how tv Mel would be able to be mistaken down the road about the identity of the “girl in grey on a dying horse.” She’d need to be deliberately misleading/deceiving Jon, now that she knows what Arya looks like.

[EmmaoftheCanals]

It does raise the question of how tv Mel would be able to be mistaken down the road about the identity of the “girl in grey on a dying horse.” She’d need to be deliberately misleading/deceiving Jon, now that she knows what Arya looks like.

I don't remember, but does Melissandre know Arya is Arya, and not some random girl?

[Lord Martin Sheol]

Didn't Mel said "we'll meet again"? We would mean that both would see eachother, would, meet each other, not just Mel seeing her through the fires. And maybe in her future vision about the girl in grey, the girl is using a cloack, or it's snowy or something. Those visions aren't exacltly clear, it'd seem.

I don't remember, but does Melissandre know Arya is Arya, and not some random girl?

Oh, that, also.

[Lannister Hamster]

Melisandre is far from infallible with her predictions so let's wait and see and not take the line as some new form of heresy.

[Little Wing]

Here's the latest FB summing up of the episode.

(Dunno if I posted the 5th episode ...) Let me know if I haven't, I'll edit it in :wideeyed: