are the female leads stronger characters than the males?

[Garlan Marius]

...because cat freed jamie

i don't think so. the karstarks were fine not killing jamie for a long time before he was freed.

Go back to that Cat chapter. Jaime would have died that night.

[yolkboy]

gender is a huge theme in the series imo.

Well individualism within supposed gender boundaries is.

'Who's the strongest leaders, the men or the women' ignores and generalizes that obvious theme.

[David Selig]

Go back to that Cat chapter. Jaime would have died that night.

No, that's the TV series only. Lord Karstark and his men weren't even in Riverrun at this point.

[Garlan Marius]

No, that's the TV series only. Lord Karstark and his men weren't even in Riverrun at this point.

Hmm, I thought they were. My mistake. I didn't know there was that big of a gap between Cat asking for Brienne's sword and Karstark telling Robb that he should have killed Jaime when he had the chance. Regardless, Karstark men are almost immediately out hunting for Jaime. Had he been around, Jaime would have taken Willem and Tion's place, I'd reckon.

[gash]

Well individualism within supposed gender boundaries is.

'Who's the strongest leaders, the men or the women' ignores and generalizes that obvious theme.

does it? they are not mutually exclusive imo. we can discuss if the female characters are stronger than the males, and also discuss gender "rebels" like arya and samwell tarly for example.

[AchillesReborn]

I think their was a interview where GRRM mentioned being a feminist. So I don't think they are stronger, just equal in ways. Guys have physical strength, but girls are probably better at playing politics. Although I think the best at that game might be Varys, he is kind of androgynous tho.

[Kittykatknits]

cat letting jamie go was a sign of weakness.

No, it really wasn't. Look at what she's actually thinking while planning it. She was very aware that she could be punished for her actions and did it anyways. Cat was fully prepared to accept any negative repercussions and judgments for what she did. Cat was also the only one smart enough to recognize that Jaime held little practical value as a hostage and that having Robb's sole remaining heirs as hostages to the Lannisters was a bad idea. Robb didn't want to make the exchange as he feared he would look weak in front of his bannermen.

Hmm, I thought they were. My mistake. I didn't know there was that big of a gap between Cat asking for Brienne's sword and Karstark telling Robb that he should have killed Jaime when he had the chance. Regardless, Karstark men are almost immediately out hunting for Jaime. Had he been around, Jaime would have taken Willem and Tion's place, I'd reckon.

I'm inclinded to agree with you. In the timeline, IIRC, Cat released Jaime prior to the BBW. Karstark, after learning the news, ordered his men to leave and then promised his daughter to whoever caught him. He was becoming overcome with grief and was unable to handle it, a sharp contrast to Catelyn who was in a similar situation but still kept moving on. Worse, Karstark killed men sworn to Riverrun in the process.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Jon is probably the strongest character (left) aside from Sansa. Sansa may seem hella passive but shes got a lot of strength.

[AchillesReborn]

Jon is probably the strongest character (left) aside from Sansa. Sansa may seem hella passive but shes got a lot of strength.

:agree: I think they are equals. Jon is strong physically and would be better at leading a army into battle. But Sansa is good at playing the political game and would be better at uniting armies.

[Nictarion]

cersei, arya, dany versus say jon, tyrion and stannis.

I wouldn't say the women are stronger than the men, as there are some really strong male characters as well. The female characters are a big part of the reason I love ASOIAF so much though. My other favorite fantasy series (LOTR) sorely lacks strong female characters, as most fantasy series do unfortunately. I commend GRRM (a man) for being able to write such great female characters.

[Nictarion]

I think their was a interview where GRRM mentioned being a feminist. So I don't think they are stronger, just equal in ways. Guys have physical strength, but girls are probably better at playing politics. Although I think the best at that game might be Viserys, he is kind of androgynous tho.

I assume you meant Varys.

[Sansa_Stark]

I never thought of Catelyn a strong character on my first read through because of her reaction to Bran's fall.

[Faint]

First, to be clear, the three female leads are Daenerys, Arya and Sansa; the three male leads are Tyrion, Jon and Bran. That is simply obvious.

Are the female leads better characters?

Yes, if only because I find Bran the worst of the lot by a very big margin. Tyrion and Jon are very good characters but so are Daenerys and Sansa, and Arya is simply light years better than Bran.

[Garlan Marius]

I never thought of Catelyn a strong character on my first read through because of her reaction to Bran's fall.

I think her reaction was reasonable and natural. If your child fell from a window, you'd be pretty shaken up, to say the least.

[gash]

First, to be clear, the three female leads are Daenerys, Arya and Sansa; the three male leads are Tyrion, Jon and Bran. That is simply obvious.

Are the female leads better characters?

Yes, if only because I find Bran the worst of the lot by a very big margin. Tyrion and Jon are very good characters but so are Daenerys and Sansa, and Arya is simply light years better than Bran.

sansa has much more POV chapters than cersei, but cersei is much more integral to the story imo. (so far anyway)

[Kittykatknits]

Jon is probably the strongest character (left) aside from Sansa. Sansa may seem hella passive but shes got a lot of strength.

Sansa has an inner strength to her I don't think many (most) adults do.

I never thought of Catelyn a strong character on my first read through because of her reaction to Bran's fall.

Her reaction didn't make her weak, it made her human. Heck, she still fought off a man using a valyrian steel sword, alone and unarmed.

As to the female characters in the series, on the whole I believe Martin has done an incredible job creating a diverse cast of not just strong but well-rounded and unique female characters. Catelyn is a mother but has been made a fully-fleshed individual, a nice contrast to how mothers are usually depicted in pop culture. Arya and Sansa are two sides of the same coin, adapting and growing within their own environments. They are more than tropes, each are fully fleshed female characters who are so much richer than so many other female characters depicted in fantasy fiction. Dany is a female character with independent power who takes control over her own sexuality, something also little seen in much of popular culture. I could go on.

So, yeah, I love the way Martin has written the women in his story. They are all incredibly rich and show their own unique strength. However, I'd also point out that many of the male leads in this story (Jon, Tyrion, Jaime, Bran) and others are also incredibly rich characters.

[AchillesReborn]

I assume you meant Varys.

Thanks for pointing that out I was talking about Viserys in another thread, easy to mix those names up.

First, to be clear, the three female leads are Daenerys, Arya and Sansa; the three male leads are Tyrion, Jon and Bran. That is simply obvious.

Are the female leads better characters?

Yes, if only because I find Bran the worst of the lot by a very big margin. Tyrion and Jon are very good characters but so are Daenerys and Sansa, and Arya is simply light years better than Bran.

Bran is young tho, maybe BloodRaven is one of the big 3 main male characters?

I suppose Arya is also young, but Bran is lightyears better at warging.

[Kittykatknits]

sansa has much more POV chapters than cersei, but cersei is much more integral to the story imo. (so far anyway)

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Cersei is integral to the plotting in KL but that's about it. The story opened with the introduction to the others, telling readers a big threat is coming to Westeros and no one knows. Then, we flash to the very first chapter of the books with each Stark child being given a direwolf, likely sent from the old gods. The series has been hammering home a couple big messages almost from the first page- the others are coming and there must always be a Stark in WF. Sansa, just like her siblings, is growing and gaining an education right now. But, in the long run, she's going to be a lot more important to the story than Cersei.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Cersei is integral to the plotting in KL but that's about it. The story opened with the introduction to the others, telling readers a big threat is coming to Westeros and no one knows. Then, we flash to the very first chapter of the books with each Stark child being given a direwolf, likely sent from the old gods. The series has been hammering home a couple big messages almost from the first page- the others are coming and there must always be a Stark in WF. Sansa, just like her siblings, is growing and gaining an education right now. But, in the long run, she's going to be a lot more important to the story than Cersei.

Indeed. I wish we had the like button.

[Table8]

Candlelight is strong in a dark room. It's all relative. Strong female characters in a male dominated feudalistic society obviously will appear stronger than males. Having that extra obstacle helps let the light shine. But then again, presenting so many female characters as "strong" does a disservice as well. In a way, GRRM has pandered to female audiences by using 21st century sensibilities to appease more female readers.

Honestly, if this series were more based on actual history, there wouldn't be any females achieving any real power aside from a hereditary queen or two. But this is fantasy which requires suspension of disbelief. So we have an inordinate amount of female power (relative to feudalism), whether it be political shrewdness like Olenna, Cercei or Cat, or physical power like Arya and Brienne. Personally, I like a majority of both male and female characters. yet I find it funny that so many female readers are so pro female characters.

Let the battle of the sexes in Westeros.org begin.