What if Cersei loses her trial?

[Ser Cookie Monster]

This is what I'm worried about. The High Septon seems to be a calculating man, so I doubt he'd actually have Margaery executed. But if she happens to lose her trial and is being held in prison by the High Septon, then he'll have the upper hand over the Tyrells. If that happens, then he actually may end up calling the shots in Kingslanding, at least for a little while.

On that note, could someone explain to me how the Trial by Faith works? I know that for Trial by Battle you have your champion to defend you. But I don't recall a mention in the books on how the Trial by Faith (which Margaery chose) is fully conducted? I know there are three judges but that's about it.

I was just about to ask that.

[Daena the Defiant]

On that note, could someone explain to me how the Trial by Faith works? I know that for Trial by Battle you have your champion to defend you. But I don't recall a mention in the books on how the Trial by Faith (which Margaery chose) is fully conducted? I know there are three judges but that's about it.

Well, we do know that the three judges would include a Septa because that was a throw-away line somewhere about a woman on trial would have a woman as a judge. Cue Septa Tyene, I think.

I can't recall - Tyrion's second trial started out in front of three judges taking testimony, but then turned into a trial by combat; can someone refresh my recollection as to how that happened?

[Ser Cookie Monster]

Well, we do know that the three judges would include a Septa because that was a throw-away line somewhere about a woman on trial would have a woman as a judge. Cue Septa Tyene, I think.

I can't recall - Tyrion's second trial started out in front of three judges taking testimony, but then turned into a trial by combat; can someone refresh my recollection as to how that happened?

But was that a trial by Faith or just a simple trial?

Oberyn said to Tyrion that he could be his champion. After all the people testifying that Tyrion was guilty, he saw that there was no way he would be declared innocent, so he demanded a trial by combat.

[Daena the Defiant]

But was that a trial by Faith or just a simple trial?

Oberyn said to Tyrion that he could be his champion. After all the people testifying that Tyrion was guilty, he saw that there was no way he would be declared innocent, so he demanded a trial by combat.

Ah, thanks.

Back to the trial by Faith - I think (based upon nothing other than a decent understanding of the idea of ecclesiastical courts on which GRRM is basing this) Margaery will be put to an inquest in which testimony is taken about her... actvities, she will get to appoint an interlocutor (or one will be given to her) to cross examine the witnesses, her writings and books will be examined, and the judges will decide if she is guilty.

The real hang-up is on what body of law the judges will be deciding: I suppose that the Faith has a body of canon law instead of king's/common law. For example, for all we know, canon law might forgive her of all the things that the common law would find to be capital crimes on the basis that she is a woman and canon law provides a defense that women are weak and susceptible to sin and thus aren't really responsible anway.

However, she seems to have the option deciding trial by combat, which Cersei has exercised but Margaery has not. It's much harder to fix one of those, you see.

I suspect that Margaery will be exonerated. All the confessions of her adultery are very suspect and her real 'religious' crime is that she participated in the Maiden's Day rites while not being an actual virgin (although she insists that she is). On teh whole, the whole thing will be resonant with the trial of Catherine of Aragon in which she was forced to defend her virginity at the time she married Henry VIII. The inquest was a bunch of her late husband's hangers-on repeating the boasting made by him after their wedding night. Martinworld makes it a little trickier because he has the (absurd) custom of the bride and groom being stripped by attendants of the opposing gender and thrown into bed together -

I think at this point, Ser Loras will emerge, unburnt and uncrispy and tell everyone that he and Renly were lovers and Margaery will also attest, thus no consumation and Margaery is saved!

[PrimeRhaegar]

lets just say the tyrells and lannister would be in a heap of shit

[TalalOfDorne]

Then we say goodbye to one of the most entertaining POVs.

If she goes, so does Tommen.

[mcb]

I don't think there's an actual procedure called "trial by Faith". It'll be just a trial, like Tyrion's second one (maybe even as rigged), only in this case there will be seven judges appointed by the Faith, instead of three appointed by the Crown.

[Gronzag]

I don't think there's an actual procedure called "trial by Faith". It'll be just a trial, like Tyrion's second one (maybe even as rigged), only in this case there will be seven judges appointed by the Faith, instead of three appointed by the Crown.

This. A trial like any other, only by the Faith

[Golden Lion]

Did I miss something? How does Cersei losing eject Tommen? Is it assumed by her failing that her children are the kettleblacks or something?

[Ser Cookie Monster]

Did I miss something? How does Cersei losing eject Tommen? Is it assumed by her failing that her children are the kettleblacks or something?

That's exactly what she's on trial for;

Now, who exactly will respect the outcome of the trial is a whole different kettle of fish, but the trial is very much to determine the paternity of Tommen and Myrcella.

[Esa1996]

She won't lose. Why bring back Gregor as Robert Strong only to kill him in his second appearance?

[JMJ]

Maybe it's too obvious to be true, but I do think The Gravedigger/Sandor is totally set up to champion the Faith against UnGregor.

There's the brother hate thing going on, that Sandor is now under the Faith, that he's rejected violence but will be asked by the Faith to be violent one last time, and that it will reprise his trial by combat vs Beric.

It would be huge redemption, but a tad too neat a bow tied to his storyline.

[Golden Lion]

Oh.

I suppose the next thing is will anyone actually care about the results of the trial? The faith are hardly in a position to force tommen off of the throne with their army.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Well, we do know that the three judges would include a Septa because that was a throw-away line somewhere about a woman on trial would have a woman as a judge. Cue Septa Tyene, I think.

Hmm. I have a question ?

There has to be a crone, a mother and a maiden in the judge, right ? Tyene is none of them. So how can she be a judge ?

[SilentSense]

No one stands a realistic change against Robert Strong, bearing in mind that he probably doesn't feel pain, that poison probably doesn't work, that he probably doesn't even have vital organs.

[Lord Varys' Pecker]

Something I'm confused about: wouldn't the Tyrells' relation to the royalty be deemed invalid if Cersei's children are revealed as illegitimate? If Tommen (and Joff) weren't legitimate Kings of the Baratheon line, then Margaery was never nor could ever have been Queen by marrying Joffrey or Tommen. I suppose the Tyrells could take the throne by force and name it "right of conquest" but would anyone else ally themselves to them?

In any case, two things in my eyes are preventing Cersei from ever losing that trial. And they are Varys and Robert Strong.

[mindchap]

If she loses I will celebrate because it will be the first time in this whole series that something bad happened to the person who most deserved it.

IOW I don't think she will lose.

[Dagon Greyjoy]

No one stands a realistic change against Robert Strong, bearing in mind that he probably doesn't feel pain, that poison probably doesn't work, that he probably doesn't even have vital organs.

But if he truly has no head... What if a glancing blow were to throw his helmet off? :D

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Hmm. I have a question ?

There has to be a crone, a mother and a maiden in the judge, right ? Tyene is none of them. So how can she be a judge ?

It's called faking. Tyene isn't above lying to the HS.

Something I'm confused about: wouldn't the Tyrells' relation to the royalty be deemed invalid if Cersei's children are revealed as illegitimate? If Tommen (and Joff) weren't legitimate Kings of the Baratheon line, then Margaery was never nor could ever have been Queen by marrying Joffrey or Tommen. I suppose the Tyrells could take the throne by force and name it "right of conquest" but would anyone else ally themselves to them?

In any case, two things in my eyes are preventing Cersei from ever losing that trial. And they are Varys and Robert Strong.

Oh yes, it would be quite a big pile of shit hitting a giant fan. Exactly what Varys needs.

But if he truly has no head... What if a glancing blow were to throw his helmet off? :D

"Burn the heretics, burn them all! Raze Casterly Rock!" Crusades are so messy...

[Gronzag]

Something I'm confused about: wouldn't the Tyrells' relation to the royalty be deemed invalid if Cersei's children are revealed as illegitimate? If Tommen (and Joff) weren't legitimate Kings of the Baratheon line, then Margaery was never nor could ever have been Queen by marrying Joffrey or Tommen. I suppose the Tyrells could take the throne by force and name it "right of conquest" but would anyone else ally themselves to them?

In any case, two things in my eyes are preventing Cersei from ever losing that trial. And they are Varys and Robert Strong.

This would also mean that Marg wouldn't have to be represented by a KG member in a trial by combat (if it comes to it)