Confusing dragon glass with Valyrian steel

[Ordos]

As I read the books, when there is a reference to Valyrian steel or obsidian (dragon glass as the series calls it) I have a brief pause to distinguish the two.

It's not that the two sound similar, it's just that both have things in common: both have the magic element to them, both are used as weapons to kill the Others (or was it that the Others use dragon glass as a weapon?) and both I associate with Dragons with Valyria being the ancestral civilization of the Targaryens and Obsidian being called Dragon glass.

I forgot to mention: Valyrian steel was once referenced as Dragon steel.

I don't confuse the two anymore but the first time I read about Valyrian steel when there was the description of a sword, I was thinking 'wait a minute, don't the wildlings also use that' based on an earlier reference to obsidian.

I guess I'm guilty of stupidity the same way somebody confuses an ape with a monkey.

Perhaps Obsidian is in some way part of the forging of Valyrian steel? I doubt it as Obsidian is very brittle and Valyrian steel is super strong.

[OberynBlackfyre]

I think the major thing they both have in common is they both somewhat embody fire. Just like the Others of oure ice that will go through normal steel like nothing, therefore Valyrian steel or obsidian which is literally "frozen fire" to some degrees hold the opposite element to that of ice, and will destroy it.

Stannis was actually talking about different colors of Obsidian though, so maybe different colors show different properties?

[yolkboy]

both are used as weapons to kill the Others (or was it that the Others use dragon glass as a weapon?)

Only obsidian has killed an Other. The Others use some kind of magic-ice swords.

I forgot to mention: Valyrian steel was once referenced as Dragon steel.

i think we're not sure what Dragon steel is ... the idea Valyrian steel was an assumption IIRC

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

As I read the books, when there is a reference to Valyrian steel or obsidian (dragon glass as the series calls it) I have a brief pause to distinguish the two.

It's not that the two sound similar, it's just that both have things in common: both have the magic element to them, both are used as weapons to kill the Others (or was it that the Others use dragon glass as a weapon?) and both I associate with Dragons with Valyria being the ancestral civilization of the Targaryens and Obsidian being called Dragon glass.

I forgot to mention: Valyrian steel was once referenced as Dragon steel.

I don't confuse the two anymore but the first time I read about Valyrian steel when there was the description of a sword, I was thinking 'wait a minute, don't the wildlings also use that' based on an earlier reference to obsidian.

I guess I'm guilty of stupidity the same way somebody confuses an ape with a monkey.

Perhaps Obsidian is in some way part of the forging of Valyrian steel? I doubt it as Obsidian is very brittle and Valyrian steel is super strong.

1. Dragonglass is another word for obsidian.

2. We don't know for sure that dragonsteel and Valyrian steel are the same. Sam and Jon guess that they might be but it's far from confirmed.

3. Only obsidian has ever been shown to actually kill an Other.

[Ordos]

1. Dragonglass is another word for obsidian.

2. We don't know for sure that dragonsteel and Valyrian steel are the same. Sam and Jon guess that they might be but it's far from confirmed.

3. Only obsidian has ever been shown to actually kill an Other.

1. I already knew that and I pointed it out in my post

2. Are we actually talking about the possibility for a third element to confuse readers like myself even more?

3. Thank you for pointing that out. The idea of Valyrian steel being used as a weapon agianst the Others just came to me because I read the descriptions of how valuable, rare and hints of magic to it's forging.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

1. I already knew that and I pointed it out in my post

2. Are we actually talking about the possibility for a third element to confuse readers like myself even more?

3. Thank you for pointing that out. The idea of Valyrian steel being used as a weapon agianst the Others just came to me because I read the descriptions of how valuable, rare and hints of magic to it's forging.

1. Sorry.

2. Maybe? My point is that it's not a given that dragonsteel and Valyrian steel are the same. It's speculation. And three things isn't that much to keep track of.

3. That's fair enough but no, obsidian is the only thing to empiricablly work so far.

[mindchap]

I think the reason Jon wanted the bodies locked in the cell beneath the wall was to test the Dragonsteel theory on actual wights.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think the reason Jon wanted the bodies locked in the cell beneath the wall was to test the Dragonsteel theory on actual wights.

Wights are not Others.

[OberynBlackfyre]

1. I already knew that and I pointed it out in my post

2. Are we actually talking about the possibility for a third element to confuse readers like myself even more?

3. Thank you for pointing that out. The idea of Valyrian steel being used as a weapon agianst the Others just came to me because I read the descriptions of how valuable, rare and hints of magic to it's forging.

just saying, I think it's safe to say Dragonsteel IS Valyrian steel. My personal belief is that the "trick" of making Valyrian steel is dragon fire. Simply because dragons could get the metal much much more heated than a smith, therefore imbuing it with all it's special properties. I also think that if they made dragonsteel another element, that would be completely lame.

[OberynBlackfyre]

I think the reason Jon wanted the bodies locked in the cell beneath the wall was to test the Dragonsteel theory on actual wights.

Mel told Jon/Sam that "steel and fire" would do for Wights, but that the Others were something else all together, so yeah, I think a valyrian sword through the head would still be efficient to kill a wight, or chopping them to pieces

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

just saying, I think it's safe to say Dragonsteel IS Valyrian steel. My personal belief is that the "trick" of making Valyrian steel is dragon fire. Simply because dragons could get the metal much much more heated than a smith, therefore imbuing it with all it's special properties. I also think that if they made dragonsteel another element, that would be completely lame.

The Battle for the Dawn occurred thousands of years before the rise of Valyria and Valyrian steel. So are you suggesting that someone made Valyrian steel before the Valyrians did? If you are, fine, but I think the timeline disparity needs to be addressed.

[mindchap]

Wights are not Others.

No, but my guess is that's still why he wanted them down there. Fire seems to be best at killing them, and they serve the Others so knowing what kills them would be extremely beneficial.

[OberynBlackfyre]

The Battle for the Dawn occurred thousands of years before the rise of Valyria and Valyrian steel. So are you suggesting that someone made Valyrian steel before the Valyrians did? If you are, fine, but I think the timeline disparity needs to be addressed.

Well from what we know the Children of the Forest gave the Nightwatch obsidian, so therefore that was used. And as for Valyria, how do we know for sure that it didn't exist before the War of Dawn? Valyria met the Doom, what, a thousand years ago? But it had been around for thousands of years before that.

the War of Dawn was supposedly 8,000 years before the "current" time, it COULD have been possible that they existed at the same time.

Edit: it was said that it was destroyed 400 years ago. However that it had existed for AT LEAST 5,000 years before that. so yes, it's possible they were around at the same time

also: we know that dragons were definitely around at that age, so it would not be insane to believe valyrian steel was first called dragonsteel regardless

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

No, but my guess is that's still why he wanted them down there. Fire seems to be best at killing them, and they serve the Others so knowing what kills them would be extremely beneficial.

You're talking about two completely different things — animated corpses and what might as well be considered an alien species. I think Jon wants to study the wights, sure, but what happens to kill them won't necessarily kill Others or show what will kill Others.

Well from what we know the Children of the Forest gave the Nightwatch obsidian, so therefore that was used. And as for Valyria, how do we know for sure that it didn't exist before the War of Dawn? Valyria met the Doom, what, a thousand years ago? But it had been around for thousands of years before that.

the War of Dawn was supposedly 8,000 years before the "current" time, it COULD have been possible that they existed at the same time.

Your timeline's off. The Valyrian Freehold is only about 5,000 years old, and the Doom is only about 400 years old. I'm not arguing about them using obsidian, I'm arguing the likelihood that Valyrian steel could have been used to kill Others 3,000-odd years before Valyria even existed. Unless someone beat the Valyrians to the punch when it came to metal-working, Valyrian steel is too "young" as a method to be dragonsteel. Even if we're assuming a fluid or less reliable timeline, 3,000 years is a lot of fudging.

ETA: And of course, in true GRRM fashion, that Jon and Sam immediately think that Vaylrian steel might be dragonsteel indicates that it's probably something else.

[OberynBlackfyre]

You're talking about two completely different things — animated corpses and what might as well be considered an alien species. I think Jon wants to study the wights, sure, but what happens to kill them won't necessarily kill Others or show what will kill Others.

Your timeline's off. The Valyrian Freehold is only about 5,000 years old, and the Doom is only about 400 years old. I'm not arguing about them using obsidian, I'm arguing the likelihood that Valyrian steel could have been used to kill Others 3,000-odd years before Valyria even existed. Unless someone beat the Valyrians to the punch when it came to metal-working, Valyrian steel is too "young" as a method to be dragonsteel.

sorry if the edit came late, but as recorded the Valyrian stronghold was "at least" 5,000 years old, suggesting that it could be older than that. plus the War of Dawn dates were always iffy at best, so it's possible that valyrian steel was at least being worked at the time for the War of Dawn, possibly even being called Dragonsteel instead.

edit: also, that is when Valyria itself was founded. The Valyrians were existence even before Valyria, as Valyria was obviously not built in a day.

[Squishysib]

I think what gives Valyarian Steel that darker cooler is that it's made with obsidian. The Fourteen fires to me screw volcano, so it's not like it'd be in short supply.

[thecryptile]

I think the reason Jon wanted the bodies locked in the cell beneath the wall was to test the Dragonsteel theory on actual wights.

Dragonglass doesn't work on wights- Sam tried it with the wight of Small Paul and no effect.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/61459-dragonsteel-is-not-valaryan-steel/

for an in depth discussion of dragonsteel vs. valyrian steel

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

sorry if the edit came late, but as recorded the Valyrian stronghold was "at least" 5,000 years old, suggesting that it could be older than that. plus the War of Dawn dates were always iffy at best, so it's possible that valyrian steel was at least being worked at the time for the War of Dawn, possibly even being called Dragonsteel instead.

That 5,000 years includes its very beginning, when it was still just a bunch of shepherds. They weren't riding dragons and forging their special weapons from the start; if anything, the Valyrian steel breakthrough date is even later than the 5,000 year mark, not earlier. To co-opt another phrase, Valyria wasn't built in a day. And the history is fluid, sure — but 3,000 years is a lot to be off by, wouldn't you agree?

I also think, given how well the Westerosi nobles keep track of their families, castles, heirlooms, etc. that if someone in Westeros had managed to forge a Valyrian steel-like sword 8,000 years ago, let alone enough of them to fight off an army of Others, there'd be some record of it and Valyrian steel wouldn't be treated with the fascination that it is. Or in other words, if there were all these Valyrian-like swords floating around, where the hell did they go? What happened to them, where are they and why is Valyrian steel so rare and treasured if the Westerosi had the "recipe" first and/or were able to make their own swords?

[Light a wight tonight]

Cracking a pot here, but in myth dragons came to Planetos when another moon (?) approached and the dragons migrated from it. Okay, that sounds unlikely but say somehow there was a huge meteor shower that A: sort of simulated a moon's brightness and B: somehow stimulated dragons that existed on Planetos to appear. Dragonsteel could be made from iron, or whatever it is, from those meteors. Dawn is said to be made from a fallen star; maybe it's an example of a Dragonsteel sword.

[mindchap]

You're talking about two completely different things — animated corpses and what might as well be considered an alien species. I think Jon wants to study the wights, sure, but what happens to kill them won't necessarily kill Others or show what will kill Others.

My point was that the Others use Wights for their army, knowing how to kill an Other would be great, but most of the fighting would be against Wights to begin with, like we saw on the Fist, so knowing what kills them would be helpful.