If half an onion is black with rot it is a rotten onion.

[Lady Arya's Song]

Actually the entire series written by Martin is like an onion. You can read the entire series for action and plot.

A reread is the next layer of the onion..which can make you cry.

Each reread is an underlayer of the onion, that is why we all love the series and this forum has been going on for years and years..we just keep peeling the onion to expose the inner layers.

The only other saying I can associate with this idea is what the rabbis say about the Torah, its like honey on the tongue but bitter in the belly. Which is a huge compliment to GRRM that I even thought about his series in the same idea. The more you read or reread the more you grapple with morality and ethics and the bitterness of an onion or the sweetness of honey on the tongue.

[Blisscraft]

There is another onion scene which perhaps ought to be considered in light of your OP, PK. That is the scene, after the wildings have come through the Wall in ADwD and Jon uses the choice between an apple or an onion to rally them. Such a choice has consquences. But for the most part what is offered is sweet (the apple) or savory (the onion).

[Light a wight tonight]

Reading the responses here made me think of a semi-parallel situation. Sam gets a half-spoiled onion, cuts off the bad part and eats the good. Arya fleeing Harenhall picks an apple with a worm and eats it worm and all. Does this indicate that Arya is closer to the Dark Side than Sam? Or that she just has less time to be fastidious?

[Lummel]

There is another onion scene which perhaps ought to be considered in light of your OP, PK. That is the scene, after the wildings have come through the Wall in ADwD and Jon uses the choice between an apple or an onion to rally them. Such a choice has consquences. But for the most part what is offered is sweet (the apple) or savory (the onion).

The onion leads to immediate tears but the apple to long term sorrow with the fall from Eden, a hobson's choice maybe?

[Penguin king]

There is another onion scene which perhaps ought to be considered in light of your OP, PK. That is the scene, after the wildings have come through the Wall in ADwD and Jon uses the choice between an apple or an onion to rally them. Such a choice has consquences. But for the most part what is offered is sweet (the apple) or savory (the onion).

Interesting. I meant to ask if anyone knew of other onion references. Could the onion stand for redemption maybe? It was a shipment of onions that took Davos from smuggler to hero, and Sam eats his onion just before risking his own life to save Gilly and her baby.

[anon76returns]

I don't see this so much as "which character is right", so much as just illustrative of opposing world-views among the characters. I tend to be much closer to Sam in my approach, but I have to admit that Mel's ideals have carried her much further in Westeros than Sam's have.

[LordStoneheart]

Melisandre`s view on rotten onions is something very closely to Ned`s naive view on the world. But, Melisandre is nothing like Ned, and she can deal with both rotten and healthy part of onion.

I don't agree that seeing something as all bad and nonredeemable is a naive view. I think its a very cautious view and Ned might've survived if he believed that a little bad means all bad.

My brother once criticized me for "only seeing the bad in people."

I told him "that's how you really see what people are. I'd rather only see the bad in people than see any good in bad people."

The latter part of that quote is a philosophy I try to make my decisions by.

[Mladen]

I don't agree that seeing something as all bad and nonredeemable is a naive view. I think its a very cautious view and Ned might've survived if he believed that a little bad means all bad.

When Ned saw Jaime on IT with dead Aerys, he was all judgemental, and unforgiving. He didn`t ask for expanations and he demanded punishment. He never asked for reasons or what happened. Ned was dividing people on good and bad, and his inability to see shades of it, other people`s motifs and what`s behind them is what led him to his death.

[Warrior Queen]

I noticed it as well.

I just interpreted is as: Even tough the onion is half-black with rot, you still need to eat to survive.

And that goes for Craster as well. Even though is is a bad person, they still need him to survive in troubled times.

This tells us: even tough something or someone is rotten, you might still need that person, or you need to do things that are not purely good in order to survive.

And it's also a nice touch. GRRM does not believe in good or evil. The half-rotten onion reflects all the grey characters in the series, and yet the two characters that are considered good by most readers have to deal with a rotten onion, literally and figuratively speaking.

[Morienthar]

Use a sharp knife and cut of the rotten part before the rot spreads.

[bbstark]

funny this sentence is somehow the opposite of this Stannis quote :

“A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward"

THis is exactly what I was thinking.

I think it shows that Mel and Stannis are not philosophically aligned. It might also be a metaphor how the Red god is not truly just, and possibly wrong and/or backward for the development of Westeros.

A truly just view is that a man/woman should be punished for the exact extent of his crimes, no more, no less. The rotten onion metaphor implies one should demonize (or execute?) someone for ANY crime, because the smallest stain on your character erases ALL of your redeeming qualities. We don't think like that today.

It shows that the R'hullor religion is actually more backwards thinking, than a lot of the ideas about justice in Westeros. Stannis is forward thinking, and so is the North. Their custom of "he who carries the sentence should swing the sword" actually makes sense. If you're going to play the prosecuter, the jury and the judge, you also better play the heavy/hated role of the executioner, so you don't take your other responsibilites lightly.

[Ragnorak]

Wonderful thoughts everyone. Very enjoyable to read through.

Interesting. I meant to ask if anyone knew of other onion references. Could the onion stand for redemption maybe? It was a shipment of onions that took Davos from smuggler to hero, and Sam eats his onion just before risking his own life to save Gilly and her baby.

Regarding redemption, if you leave the onion alone over time eventually the rot will consume all. One might apply that to Jaimie and his sword hand among other things though I think I like Stannis and Davos more.

Surprisingly, Stannis smiled at that. “You’re bold enough to be a Stark. Yes, I should have come sooner. If not for my Hand, I might not have come at all. Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.”

The bitterness Stannis felt over the slight against his rights was consuming him like a rot and Davos helps save him much like he did back in Storms End with his proverbial onions. It could also be seen as a commentary on vengeance which is something else we see consume people over time in this series. The choice to turn away from vengeance is to embrace the mourning that comes with the loss or the tears that come with the healthy part of the onion. That scene also ties most of our onion metaphor characters together.

The various apple and onion metaphors are quite interesting too. Need to ponder them more but an apple is a fruit and an onion is a root.

[RhaenysBee]

It refers to the simple assumption that if somebody has done something wrong, he cannot say that he is a good man from then on.

By the way, it's bullshit. ALL onions are rotten then. Also, you can cut the bloody onion in half, and you'll have half a healthy onion that you can still eat. End of story. Davos put smuggling behind him, now he is a good man, an important member of the society.

[Hukthagz]

It actually doesn't invalidate Mel's opinion. Sam put some effort to a single onion to eat while an onion trader can't sell his rotten onions simply by saying "take away the rotten part". That shit would simply discarded. It's more about scale IMHO, Mel can't afford to take out good part from a bad onion because she deals with entire humanity.

[ckal]

I think you're getting too philosophical about this.

Sam is fat, he doesn't like to throw away food.

[W.Kane]

I would say that Sam's act is a commentary on Stannis' justice too.

hahha . yeah , Sam cut the rotten part and used the rest , just like Stannis punished Davos but also rewarded him and brought him to his service.

[EnergeticCrab]

In a Clash of Kings, Mel uses the metaphor of a rotten onion to explain to Davos that a man can not be both good and evil. If he's half rotten, then he's fully rotten. If there is any evil in his heart then he's a evil man. However, during my current re-read of Storm, I noticed that at Craster's keep, Sam is given an onion that is black and rotted on one side, but instead of throwing it away, he cuts off the rot with his dagger and eats the good half raw.

The symbolism here can't be accidental, but I'm not sure exactly what point Martin is trying to make. Does Sam's onion refer to Craster? Is he saying that despite marrying his daughters and leaving his sons out to die, Craster has some good in him, and freely offers the watch his food and shelter when he could have turned them away?

Or is the point that in times of need notions of good and evil are less important? That safe at castle black, sam would throw the rotten onion away, but now cold and hungry even half a raw onion is a godsend, and although Craster is an evil man, his assistance is much needed.

Or does the onion still refer to the onion knight, and Martin is subtly letting us know that Mel's take on morality and her judgement of Davos is wrong via a small reference in an unrelated POV?

It seems too direct a reference to just be coincidence.

All of those things.

Though a few days ago I found a rotten onion in our fridge and threw it out because I was afraid to see if any part of it was unscathed.

[Blisscraft]

The onion leads to immediate tears but the apple to long term sorrow with the fall from Eden, a hobson's choice maybe?

:cheers:

[messem]

I had found this as well. I think it's plainly showing us that extremism is not good, that Mel is wrong with her black and white views of the world, and that nothing is simply good or evil.

Basically, what he said.

But I beg to differ. Melisandre has black and red views. ;-)

This whole series is so full of half rotten characters. without them there wouldn't be any books

[Blisscraft]

The bitterness Stannis felt over the slight against his rights was consuming him like a rot and Davos helps save him much like he did back in Storms End with his proverbial onions. It could also be seen as a commentary on vengeance which is something else we see consume people over time in this series. The choice to turn away from vengeance is to embrace the mourning that comes with the loss or the tears that come with the healthy part of the onion. That scene also ties most of our onion metaphor characters together.

I like this.

hahha . yeah , Sam cut the rotten part and used the rest , just like Stannis punished Davos but also rewarded him and brought him to his service.

Funny, too that Stannis "cut off" the tips of Davos fingers and "used the rest."