A closer look at Arthur, Gwenhyfar and Lancelot

[Frey family reunion]

Just wanted to commend you on this thread. As lengthy as Martin's books are, I'm still amazed at the number of homages he's fit within his series and still managed to keep the story relatively coherent.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Just wanted to commend you on this thread. As lengthy as Martin's books are, I'm still amazed at the number of homages he's fit within his series and still managed to keep the story relatively coherent.

Thank you for the kind words!

Truly you are correct- the Arthurian and mythological parallels alone could fill volumes, let alone the literary and historical references.

To GRRM :bowdown:

[Frey family reunion]

There was one scene in AGOT that always made me think of Arthur and the Lady of the Lake. The scene where Arya (kind of a water spirit herself) takes Joffrey's sword liontooth and throws it in the Trident. Joffrey being the reverse of Arthur, who is treated as the heir when in reality he isn't and then being found unworthy by the Lady of the Trident.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

There was one scene in AGOT that always made me think of Arthur and the Lady of the Lake. The scene where Arya (kind of a water spirit herself) takes Joffrey's sword liontooth and throws it in the Trident. Joffrey being the reverse of Arthur, who is treated as the heir when in reality he isn't and then being found unworthy by the Lady of the Trident.

That's good! I think it's typical GRRM to also present us with inversions, anti-heroes and transpositions. We could probably do a whole thread just for those.

And yes, Arya's definitely related to the magical side. A sidhe? A priestess a la Morgan le Fay?

[Roadside Rose]

Lyanna Stark: Elaine of Corbenic transforms into Gwenhyfar

Lancelot has a son called Galahad with a woman named Elaine of Corbenic. The father of Elaine of Corbenic is the Fisher King, sometimes called King Pelles, the guardian of the Holy Grail. Legend has it that he is descended from Bron who was a follower of Joseph of Arimathea, who brought the Grail to Britain. He is also thought to be derived from the character of Bran the Blessed from the Welsh Mabinogian. Bran possessed a magic cauldron that could resurrect the dead. This seems likely the province of Heresy, with the North being closely connected to the cauldron, the resurrected dead of the LoAW, the name Bran, and Welsh mythology in general. Given that, I would assume a Stark connection to the characters of Elaine and Pelles.

Malory describes Elaine as “passing fair and young.” Compare that to Eddard Stark’s memory of his sister (AGoT, ch.4) “Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child woman of surpassing loveliness.” After Lancelot rescues Elaine from a scalding bath (something favored by at least one Targ we know) she falls in love with him. Applying this to Lyanna, could she have been in trouble with a Targaryen? Did Aerys actually discover the truth behind tKotLT only to have someone save her from punishment at the tournament? Was Rhaegar’s crowning her QoLaB a symbolic message to his father that she was under his protection? In the story of Elaine of Corbenic and Lancelot, Elaine must ultimately resort to a magical disguise to trick him into lying with her and conceiving Galahad. I propose that, with typical Martinism, the analogy is now given a different twist.

Lancelot is closely connected with a traditional folk story that has three main elements: a child raised by a water sidhe, the reappearance of the (now grown) hero at a tournament on three consecutive days in three different disguises, and the rescue of a kidnapped queen.

If we assume the Lyanna Stark is tKotLT and also analogous to Elaine of Corbenic, we see that she is associated with disguises. The disguise Elaine assumes is of Gwenhyfar. If we assign the role of sidhe child to the crannogman (I know, a bit of a stretch…) and agree that Lyanna’s disguise as tKotLT and defeat of three champions satisfies the second element we have two of the elements of the original topos present. This may be a hint that Lyanna is now moving into the third element or the role of Gwenhyfar, the captive queen.

Nice parallels

[Jon Flowers]

What a fantastic thread. A welcome change from "who would beat who in a fight" and "character x is stupid." I'll have to read it more in depth some other time, but thank you very much for something that clearly took a bit of effort on you part. Kudos.

[Roadside Rose]

I do agree there could be something between Elia and Arthur Dayne. Maybe he protected her from the Mad King Aerys. (Aerys raped his wife Rhaella, so I doubt he was nice to other women around him).

I like your post.

I found some parallels between ASOIAF and Roman history too. Though I'm not sure that is the topic on this thread.

Some parallels between the story of Lyanna and Lucretia.

The Fall of the Roman Kingdom, and the establishment of the Roman Republic seems to have been caused by a certain incident involving the rape of a noble woman. Historians state that a noble woman Lucretia was raped by the tyrannical emperor’s (Lucian Tarquinius) son. Enraged by this event there was a rebellion led by prominent nobles, which overthrew the King and drove out the Tarquin family from Rome.

The two men at the forefront of the rebellion, were Lucretia’s husband Collatinus and his friend Brutus. Brutus had other political motivations to overthrow the King. The reason being if anything happened to the King he was next in line to the throne, because he was a Tarquin on his mother’s side.

[Ygrain]

Wow, an awesome, thread, Lady Gwynhyfvar! Sadly, my knowledge of the Arthurian legend is not profound enough to contribute but the insights on the various versions are really enticing.

[James Arryn]

Much was made of Lucretia's 'perfect honor' and comportment as an ideal Roman woman, and served as an example to matrons throughout the Roman era. Cannot emphasize enough how much this aspect was suggested as shaping the narrative for Romans; presumably had she been less virtuous or modest or w/e she would have had it coming. Not entirely joking; rape in the classical world was sometimes defined by where the act took place; if outside the house the woman may be seen as implicitly encouraging it. (More Greek than Roman, but you get me.) And once the Christian era began, the entire Lucretia sequence was given an entirely different angle, and many (including Augustine) presumed she must have been at least partly to blame. Lyanna would seem to stand as a counter-culture example for feudal Westeros, though she'd fit in fine south of the Reds.

[Roadside Rose]

House of Lancaster emblem -> Lion

House of York emblem -> Boar

[BondJamesBond]

Great thread! I especially liked the info on the Roman history. I did not know that and it's a clear parallel to Robert's Rebellion.

My take on the Arthurian parallels:

Jon Snow = Arthur

I would say Jon could also be Galahad but his affair with Ygritte precludes this. If he is Arthur, then Jon will sit on the Iron Throne.

Rhaegar and Lyana = Quasi-Reverse Uther and Ygraine

In Arthurian Legend, Uther is not married and Ygraine is. In Westeros, it is Rhaegar who spurns his wife for Lyana who is single. Mostly this analogy works because Rhaegar dies and Jon is raised in ignorance of his true identity by a good man.

Ned & Robb Stark = Sir Ector and Sir Kay

Ned is a good man who raises Jon well, but Jon is second fiddle to Robb.

Jaime and Cersei = reverse Lancelot and Guinevere

This one was obvious to me in the beginning, but I forgot about it as I got into the characters. Here, GRRM eviscerates our notion of the series being a typical story when he makes the tragic love that readers usually sympathize with being between such deeply messed up characters.

Dany = Morganna Le Fay

Dany lovers will hate this but I think she plays the magic (dragon) obessed half sister enemy to Jon (Arthur)

Gendry = Galahad? Or maybe Jon is Galahad (the perfect, selfless knight) notwithstanding his dalliance with Ygritte. In this analogy Rhaegar is the flawed knight Lancelot and Lyana is the mysterious beauty Elaine who hails from an isolated castle that is hard to get to (Winterfell).

Sir Barristan, Rhaella, and King Aerys = Tristan & Isolde and the evil King Mark who married Tristan's lover Isolde

Well, those are my thoughts. It was a fun exercise!

[Alia of the knife]

Great thread, and just one, or two observations as I break down the categories of parallels.

Lyanna and Oswell Whent:

There was a good theory many moons ago that perhaps it was Oswell Whent, the dark-humored KG who may have loved Lyanna. He might have actually been exposed to her presence before Rhaegar as it was his Brother who was the Lord of Harrenhal.

If Lyanna had actually been a guest of Lord Whent and his daughter, (hosted as a favor to the Kings own cousin, Robert Berantheon), then that creates opportunity and tension for both men.

Rhaegar in closer proximity now, as well as the Isle of Faces providing a place for them to plot their troth, but it also means that Oswell is a presence as well.

Since it is hinted that Oswell is of a darker nature, perhaps he is more likely to break his vows, as well as to want to betray Rhaegar, if even at the same time he dies fighting for Lyannas child, the true King.

He both keeps his vow, while he breaks it.

Rhaegar/Uther:

You will have to refresh my memory, but was Uther a widower, or did he set aside his wife?

It's clear he wanted his barons wife, Igraine, (Lyanna), and she did marry Uther to the distress of his daughter, who was afraid she'd be put aside too.

Arthur Dayne/Lancelot+Lyanna/Elia and Rhaegar/Arthur:

I could see this parallel more with Lyanna, but only in the platonic, Courtly love sense.

I don't think Arthur would break his vows for either Elia, or Lyanna, especially as he was so steadfast to Rhaegar.

If he loved Lyanna, it would certainly make sense as to why he fought even her brother so fiercely, not knowing what he may do to her as it was not uncommon for women in those times to be executed by their families for dishonoring their House, as well as to fight for the new King.

Is Arthur KG because he is a true believer? Or, did he choose this because he was Rhaegars best friend, OR because he did want to be closer to Elia?

I think it's safe to say if there was anything going on between Arthur and Elia, Rhaegar knew it.

Jon/Arthur/Bloodraven, a Westerosi Parallel wrapped in a historically mythical enigma.

I believe this could be likely, and you know that nasty little path I'm going to go skipping down, but, I must as it also brings in another one of Martins narratives on the cycles of unending events such as vengeance, as well as history repeating itself, perhaps because of vengeance.

Arya= Morgana/Guinevere/Sheira Seastar

Arya, a girl who will likely be beautiful in her own right, but deadly, as well as a Mistress of disguises, could be a hybrid of Morganna AND Guinevere, as well as Sheira Seastar.

The woman that Jon falls in love with by accident, but maybe always did love her underneath it all.

However, she is as forbidden because of their sibling upbringing. But, she isn't forbidden to Aegon and it also parallels the history of Bloodraven/Sheira Seastar/Bittersteele.

Aegon/Lancelot/Bittersteele.

And there is Aegons association with the Golden Company.

Jon/Bloodraven

- A brother he loved, Robb.

- A brother he hated, Aegon

- A woman he desired, Arya.

So, Martin neatly ties up his own cycle with a bow of historical reference. :cool4:

My personal preference is that Arya be the spiritual symbol of the Mother that never truly left him.

[James Arryn]

Uther had no marital ties that I can recall being mentioned. Also, "exposed to her presence" rocks. I am now picturing Lyanna with angel choirs singing and sunbeams shining.

[Alia of the knife]

Uther had no marital ties that I can recall being mentioned. Also, "exposed to her presence" rocks. I am now picturing Lyanna with angel choirs singing and sunbeams shining.

Oh wow, thats what I get for mixing my prose with my wine. :laugh:

(After a couple of shots of brandy my dad use to give his grandad, great grandpa could recite the "Charge of the Light Brigade" verbatim and with a flourish), lol.

I'll try and keep Lyanna at least on the Shield Maiden level of warrior worship as opposed to a celestial host. :bowdown:

Edit: And thanks for the clarification on Uther.

[Roadside Rose]

Also

Helen of Troy -> Lyanna

Paris -> Rhaegar

Nero -> Aerys

[Ser Creighton]

Hmmmmm,

Ahhhhhh,

Hmmmmm,

So, I read your thread, and now I feel like I want a cookie to further enjoy the moment. I used to love Arthurian legend when I was younger, but I am affraid that was a long time ago but I don't remember half as much as I thought I knew back then and only really ever knew half as much as I thought I ever did to begin with.

But I do have a question or two, that play on three. Wasn't Gwenhwyfar originally 3 queens all with the same name?

What about the Vulgate cycle? The first meeting of Lancelot and Gwenhwyfar was done buy Galehaut. And what about the false Gwenhwyfar?

One of the problems I guess I am having is the mixed parallels, there is so much written in Arthurian legend but so many different authors that you can piece just about anything together. Triad 56, Malory, The Vulgate Cycle, Geoffrey of Monmouth, Chretiens Lancelot, Tennyson.

Malorys Gwen and Tennysons Gwen are two similar yet very different women. Malorys Gwen drove Lance crazy and she wished death upon him but was also loyal to him, and he of course saved her from the burning. But then she ran away when there love was discovered and became a nun. So using that you could draw parallels to Lemore.

Also you have Lyonors Arthurs lover.

As for Whent and Dayne, lets not forget Bedivere and Kay.

And my personal favorite Ser Gawain, who is the original Lancelot and in the earlier works was the greatest of the knights. In the Vulgate Cycle 13th century he becomes the second greatest Knight behind Lancelot. Then Malory gutted Gawain, bastard!

One intresting thing I do recall, from the Morte, is about Excalibur. Malory explained the name as Kutte' or cut steel, to cut steel, which Dawn did against the smiling Knight. When Arthur first uses Excalibur at the stone, the sword showed with the light of 30 torches. Oh course drawing a sword from a stone and pulling the metal from a meteorite to make a sword are not all the different either.

Well if I am mistaken about anything I am sorry it has been a very long time since I talked about this stuff. I think it's intresting but it's just such a broad subject with so many different interpretations. You got good Gwen, bad Gwen, Evil Gwen, crazy Gwen, fake Gwen, 3 Gwens etc...

[Lummel]

I think that Arthurian legend is less used in homage in GRRM and more a thematic cornerstone. By which I mean if medieval history is one major source of character, incident and parallels then to my mind the various Arthur cycles are another. Patterns of relationships are not one to one parallels but repeated across groups of characters allowing GRRM to have a different take or a slightly different slant whether that be the love triange or the wicked uncle.

The debate in ASOIAF on the nature of knighthood between the spirtual and martial aspects of the role is purely Arthurian, the political consequences of the love triangle again Arthurian, perhaps teh sense of doom and possible renewal too? All ASOIAF needs is a Grail...

[Ydiot]

I really like the idea that Aerys had demanded Lyanna and Rhaegar had gone to rescue her. It would explain so much. I have always wondered why Rhaegar had left it a year after Harenhall to take her away, surely there would have been opportunities before that. If he desperately wanted to carry her away he could have contrived an opportunity anyway. Also, maybe this is all the more reason she was at the Tower of Houe with 3 KG, to protect her from Aerys as much as anyone else.

I also like the idea of Arthur and Elia, I read something about it on here before and it has been stuck in my head since. I have seen many people wonder why the Martells held no grudge at all for Rhaegar and the whole Lyanna affair, maybe it is because they knew the Elia was in love with Arthur. It is not as if the Martells are particularly secretive about their affairs. Maybe its why Elia does not seem to offer any objection to Rhaegars crowning of lyanna at Harrenhall. That is all speculation of course, I just like the idea.

[Ser Creighton]

I think that Arthurian legend is less used in homage in GRRM and more a thematic cornerstone. By which I mean if medieval history is one major source of character, incident and parallels then to my mind the various Arthur cycles are another. Patterns of relationships are not one to one parallels but repeated across groups of characters allowing GRRM to have a different take or a slightly different slant whether that be the love triange or the wicked uncle.

The debate in ASOIAF on the nature of knighthood between the spirtual and martial aspects of the role is purely Arthurian, the political consequences of the love triangle again Arthurian, perhaps teh sense of doom and possible renewal too? All ASOIAF needs is a Grail...

Kiss of fire from the one true god in reguards to the chalice. Early inspiration for the grail was believed to be a image of a bowl Mary carried that contained fire. Another has it as stone that fell from the sky.

[Syphon the Sanitator]

I don't feel like wrestling through this thread reading things I already know (since I studied English, I have more than a little knowledge on the Arthur saga having read Geoffry of Monmouth as well as Thomas Malory's Morte d'Arthur), but here's something I want to add:

Did you know that Lancelot is an early case of fan fiction?