A closer look at Arthur, Gwenhyfar and Lancelot

[Whitering]

The French certainly changed the character of Gwenhyfar, moving away from the goddess inspired character of the Welsh tales. But doesn't her situation with Arthur/Lancelot (which is not an outright betrayal in many of the tales) merely make her complicated and human? To me that sounds suspiciously like many of the characters presented to us by GRRM- flawed, complicated, often tragic and above all, human.

Complicated and human for women in fantasy far too often means disloyal. I would never cheat on anyone, I am a bit arrogant, a bit lazy, a bit elitist. It's not human to betray, it's a weakness that is thrust upon her for no reason other than to add a little spicy romance to the tale for all I can tell. It was not a woman that made the alterations, but probably some super christian male that still believed woman was the fount of all sin.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Is Arya Morgana?

I haven't written that part yet! :lol:

Seriously, yes that's the most obvious parallel, even with the :ack: factor. But she also has elements of Gwenhyfar as the Warrior Goddess, and Elaine of Corbenic as a mistress of disguises (as described above) There is an exchange upthread with Alia of the Knife about this where she also notes in story parallels to Shiera Seastar.

[Anath]

By the way, I am quite intrigued by the attention Elia receives from more common people. Yes, she was the future Queen but Tywin Lannister was one of the most influential men in the Seven Kingdoms, as well as one of the richest ones. Lannisters are quite proud. Cersei was a glorified beauty and it seems safe to assume that she did have some nice jewels, as well. Still, the man from Kingswood Brotherhood chose Elia as the object of his 'attentions'. And Howland Reed who saw Cersei and Ashara and probably had a good reason to be grateful to Lyanna singled out Elia as one the most beautiful women at the tournament.

As we know, GRRM rarely does something without purpose so why was Elia "chosen" this way?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I haven't written that part yet! :lol:

Seriously, yes that's the most obvious parallel, even with the :ack: factor. But she also has elements of Gwenhyfar as the Warrior Goddess, and Elaine of Corbenic as a mistress of disguises (as described above) There is an exchange upthread with Alia of the Knife about this where she also notes in story parallels to Shiera Seastar.

Ah ok nice thread :)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Complicated and human for women in fantasy far too often means disloyal. I would never cheat on anyone, I am a bit arrogant, a bit lazy, a bit elitist. It's not human to betray, it's a weakness that is thrust upon her for no reason other than to add a little spicy romance to the tale for all I can tell. It was not a woman that made the alterations, but probably some super christian male that still believed woman was the fount of all sin.

Basically we agree about the French influence (see my comment upthread about Chretien turning Gwenhyfar into an insipid shrew) and I'm certain that Gwenhyfar was stripped of her divinity as a part of the routine eradication of worship of the goddess and feminine spirit. But I think it's important to remember that was a product of its time, and that GRRM's characters exist in a similar time. In spite of that, I think he presents us with characters that don't fit neatly into stereotypes. And I happen to think it is very human to be torn between your head and your heart, between duty and love, whether you're a character in a medieval romance or a modern woman.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Ah ok nice thread :)

Thanks :)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

By the way, I am quite intrigued by the attention Elia receives from more common people. Yes, she was the future Queen but Tywin Lannister was one of the most influential men in the Seven Kingdoms, as well as one of the richest ones. Lannisters are quite proud. Cersei was a glorified beauty and it seems safe to assume that she did have some nice jewels, as well. Still, the man from Kingswood Brotherhood chose Elia as the object of his 'attentions'. And Howland Reed who saw Cersei and Ashara and probably had a good reason to be grateful to Lyanna singled out Elia as one the most beautiful women at the tournament.

As we know, GRRM rarely does something without purpose so why was Elia "chosen" this way?

Well on the one hand I think GRRM has a point to make about beauty of the soul (didn't Barristan say Elia had a "gentle soul"?) being more attractive than physical glory that conceals a dark soul (a la Cersei)

Then there's the whole Elia > Gwenhyfar > Goddess analogy where in Welsh mythology Gwen was the Earth goddess that Arthur had to marry in order to gain his sovereignty over the land. I suppose the common people would tend to revere the "earth goddess" type.

Just musing about this, I think I might feel a new post coming on! :lol:

[Anath]

Then there's the whole Elia > Gwenhyfar > Goddess analogy where in Welsh mythology Gwen was the Earth goddess that Arthur had to marry in order to gain his sovereignty over the land. I suppose the common people would tend to revere the "earth goddess" type.

Just musing about this, I think I might feel a new post coming on! :lol:

Yes, please do.

Hmm, I'm reminded of my first impression of Cat. She was supposed to be the backbone of the family, being a Tully and all. Earth goddess, earth mother and so on. And she was. But then, there is this little quirk of hers to focus on the flaws in the looks of anyone she meets the moment she meets them. I mean, the distance between Roslyn's teeth, for Pete's sake.

Elia, on the other hand, cooed over baby Tyrion and there was nothing showing that she needed time to get used to his looks. Eath goddess is mother to all, pretty and not so much. Just ask Gaea.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Just ask Gaea.

Good point! Some (or most?) of hers were pretty hideous (on the outside ;))

[Steve Moss II]

I like the Arthurian analogies. It makes a nice change of pace from the War of the Roses and Plantagenet comparisons.

Who is Tristan and Iseault? Robb and Jeyne?

Jamie certainly has Gawain parallels, including his unfailing courtesy towards heinous women (one of whom he married only to find out she was a beauty when he honored her choices) and the sun motif (golden armor, etc.).

[kephv]

Seriously, yes that's the most obvious parallel, even with the :ack: factor.

And that :ack: factor is looking very likely, considering her current identity switch...

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I like the Arthurian analogies. It makes a nice change of pace from the War of the Roses and Plantagenet comparisons.

Who is Tristan and Iseault? Robb and Jeyne?

Jamie certainly has Gawain parallels, including his unfailing courtesy towards heinous women (one of whom he married only to find out she was a beauty when he honored her choices) and the sun motif (golden armor, etc.).

Not sure about Tristan & Iseult! I think you need a King Mark figure to complete the analogy and Robb & Jeyne don't have that. They have tragedy in spades though. Of course, adult male Kings aren't very common is Westeros, as they all seem to die. So I'm thinking we have to look to the past... Someone upthread suggested Barristan & Rhaella with Aerys as King Mark. An interesting thought, but I don't think we have enough to go on with that.

The only other candidates in the present I can think of are Tris Botley & Asha. Her uncle Euron is an "old King" and (in a twist) forced her into a loveless marriage with yet another old man. Of course, Asha isn't in love with Tris so it kind of falls apart, but there you go. Not all analogues are perfect ;)

Interesting idea with Jaime as Gawain! I'm going to give that some thought.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

And that :ack: factor is looking very likely, considering her current identity switch...

Yes, setting us up for an Arthur-Morgan situation where Arthur has no idea who his sister is. I hope if it gets to that it goes to the brink and stops, because Arya would HAVE to know, even if Jon were fooled by her disguise. I don't think I can accept that :stillsick:

[Anath]

Someone upthread suggested Barristan & Rhaella with Aerys as King Mark. An interesting thought, but I don't think we have enough to go on with that.

Something about Ser Barristan has always bothered me. He was in love with Ashara, yet when he thinks of Harrenhall, he thinks that he would not have given the crown to Elia or the Queen who was at King's Landing. Why think of Rhaella at all? To me, that shows that she sure was beautiful but why think of her in this context? And mind you, he doesn't think derisively of her looks. To him, the reason (one of the reasons) not to crown her was that she was not present.

I think that if there were feelings on his part toward the Princess and then Queen Rhaella, it would have been something he never expressed and with time, it wore out little by little. When Ashara Dayne came to court, he might have been ready to move on, although with those noble Kingsguards moving on might not mean what we lowly people think it means :rolleyes:

[Frey family reunion]

I'm glad you came back and revived the thread, OP, easily one of the most interesting threads on this forum. Regarding the influence that a comet may have had on sixth century British folklore, you may want to check out a book I stumbled across written back in 1883, called Ragnarok: the Age of Fire and Gravel. By Ignatius Donnelly (a Minnesota Congressman of all things), he tries to tie in various cultures end of the world mythologies with comets passing close enough to the Earth to cause continental drift, flooding, false winters, ect. It's definitely science fiction, but it makes for an interesting read. I have a hard time believing that this book wasn't a big influence in ASOIAF. Donnelly was best known for an earlier book called Atlantis, the Antediluvian World which pretty much shaped the 20th century imaginings and fiction of Atlantis. But anyway it's available to view over the internet, here's the link if you're interested: http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/rag/index.htmhttp://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/rag/index.htm

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I'm glad you came back and revived the thread, OP, easily one of the most interesting threads on this forum. Regarding the influence that a comet may have had on sixth century British folklore, you may want to check out a book I stumbled across written back in 1883, called Ragnarok: the Age of Fire and Gravel. By Ignatius Donnelly (a Minnesota Congressman of all things), he tries to tie in various cultures end of the world mythologies with comets passing close enough to the Earth to cause continental drift, flooding, false winters, ect. It's definitely science fiction, but it makes for an interesting read. I have a hard time believing that this book wasn't a big influence in ASOIAF. Donnelly was best known for an earlier book called Atlantis, the Antediluvian World which pretty much shaped the 20th century imaginings and fiction of Atlantis. But anyway it's available to view over the internet, here's the link if you're interested: http://www.sacred-te...l/rag/index.htm

Thank you for that! The most recent round of input has given me new ideas to expand the posts, so hopefully you'll see more in the near future...

I am definitely going to check out the Donnelly book- most of what I was reading was some (more or less) current science on the weather patterns, combined with the contemporary chroniclers and ideas by some crackpottish theorists.

Your comment that this may have been influential on ASOIAF makes me wonder if anyone has ever asked GRRM directly about the effect the comet might be having on the weather? It seems like something someone might have noticed.

Thanks again for the kind words and the link! :)

[the_one_who_was_promised]

I don't think that cuckolding the Crown Prince would be considered a minor transgression but Arthur Dayne must have had a flaw and we have yet to see one. It wouldn't be in GRRM's style to paint him such a paragon.

Perhaps, following the Arthur-Lancelot-Guinevere-Morgan Le Fay analogy, Arthur Dayne might have been in love with Elia?

After all, a rumoured similar transgression did not prevent Aemon the Dragon Knight from similarly being thought of as one of the greatest knights who had ever lived. I wonder what really happened at the ToJ. Did Ned/ Howland really kill the Kings Guards?

[Anath]

Perhaps, following the Arthur-Lancelot-Guinevere-Morgan Le Fay analogy, Arthur Dayne might have been in love with Elia?

Perhaps he was. As I wrote, he seems to be the only knight who, in a way, defends her. All other men she came into contact with after her wedding betrayed her - Rhaegar crowning Lyanna and running off with her, Aerys keeping her hostage and essentially enabling Tywin to have her killed, Barristan Selmy subtly disparaging her, Jaime sitting in the ugly chair and waiting to see what would happen, never thinking that she might be in danger.

Arthur Dayne seems to be the only one who gives justice for an offense committed against her. Truly, the offense was a minor one and the brigands should have been disbanded anyway but nonetheless, he acts like Elia's champion - the Queen's knight.

[Alia of the knife]

Following this line of thought, I noted that Gerald Dayne of all the Daynes seems to be singled out as being close to the Martells.

I suppose it could be due to his affair with Arianne, but the way he says, "for Elia," also suggests an intimacy of purpose between what he is doing for revenge and what happened to Elia.

It's not my sense his talk of revenge is that of a Martell sycophant, because he does seem to have a burning, underlying anger hence Ariannes remarks on his cruelty and angery eyes, as well as his arrogance.

So I wonder if it is not possible that Gerald could be the offspring of a youthful encounter between Arthur and Elia, and Arthur then follows her as KG to Court?

(Wasn't the initial idea of Jaimie becoming KG was so he could still be close to Cersei if she married Rhaegar)? If so, then that was set into motion before the proposed betrothal of Rhaegar and Cersei fell apart.

The Martells do have Targaryen in their blood line as well, so between the Dayne coloring and Elias bloodline, that could make for Geralds particular looks.

Also the fact that Gerald could be his sisters secret offspring would make Gerald particularly dangerous to the Martells and a "poison" in Oberyns eyes, (I don't think he is concerned about any affair his niece chooses to engage in). If Princess Elia was exposed as having had a child by another man before her marriage to Prince Rhaegar, then due to that behavior, all of her children's legitimacy could be called into question which was the major factor in why punishment,(sometimes death), for unfaithful, highborn women was more severe in Medieval times beyond just a double standard and male hypocrisy.

I know this likely falls into the crackpot realm, :P but I think there has to be another reason beyond DS's questionable martial prowess and his temperament that makes him the most dangerous man in Dorne.

Edit: Apologies if this has already been discussed, but it has been suggested that the rise and prominence of the Holy Mother Mary is a reflection and replacement for the goddess figures of the Indo-European traditions that Christianity displaced.

I would also point out that in Tibetan Buddhism that the highest advancement that anyone can achieve is to become like the great female Buddhas ARYA Tara ;) who are depicted as great protectors, fearless and compassionate.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Following this line of thought, I noted that Gerald Dayne of all the Daynes seems to be singled out as being close to the Martells.

I suppose it could be due to his affair with Arianne, but the way he says, "for Elia," also suggests an intimacy of purpose between what he is doing for revenge and what happened to Elia.

It's not my sense his talk of revenge is that of a Martell sycophant, because he does seem to have a burning, underlying anger hence Ariannes remarks on his cruelty and angery eyes, as well as his arrogance.

So I wonder if it is not possible that Gerald could be the offspring of a youthful encounter between Arthur and Elia, and Arthur then follows her as KG to Court?

(Wasn't the initial idea of Jaimie becoming KG was so he could still be close to Cersei if she married Rhaegar)? If so, then that was set into motion before the proposed betrothal of Rhaegar and Cersei fell apart.

The Martells do have Targaryen in their blood line as well, so between the Dayne coloring and Elias bloodline, that could make for Geralds particular looks.

Also the fact that Gerald could be his sisters secret offspring would make Gerald particularly dangerous to the Martells and a "poison" in Oberyns eyes, (I don't think he is concerned about any affair his niece chooses to engage in). If Princess Elia was exposed as having had a child by another man before her marriage to Prince Rhaegar, then due to that behavior, all of her children's legitimacy could be called into question which was the major factor in why punishment,(sometimes death), for unfaithful, highborn women was more severe in Medieval times beyond just a double standard and male hypocrisy.

I know this likely falls into the crackpot realm, :P but I think there has to be another reason beyond DS's questionable martial prowess and his temperament that makes him the most dangerous man in Dorne.

Edit: Apologies if this has already been discussed, but it has been suggested that the rise and prominence of the Holy Mother Mary is a reflection and replacement for the goddess figures of the Indo-European traditions that Christianity displaced.

I would also point out that in Tibetan Buddhism that the highest advancement that anyone can achieve is to become like the great female Buddhas ARYA Tara ;) who are depicted as great protectors, fearless and compassionate.

Recent exchanges about Elia (here and elsewhere ;)) have me hard at work on an "Elia" post for this thread.

I really appreciate your insight because it seems so likely, given what we do know and the parallels discussed here, that there is more to the Elia/AD relationship than meets the eye. I'll just point out that the first description of Darkstar in the Feast Appendix, he was called the "cousin" of Edric Dayne. No qualifiers such as "distant" or "cadet branch." This has always made me think the relationship is much closer than many have assumed.Obviously in the scenario you suggest Gerold would be Edric's first cousin. Also, I agree that Darkstar's danger lies in his knowledge rather than any physical attribute.

As for Mary, yes I'd say she is definitely a conflation of the first two aspects of the triple goddess Gwenhyfar once represented (virgin+mother) The third aspect, crone, was relegated to folktale as the village witch or wicked stepmother. I looked up Arya Tara to read some more about it and couldn't help but notice this description in the wiki:

"Tara is frequently depicted as a young sixteen-year-old girlish woman...There are Tibetan tales in which she laughs at self-righteousness, or plays pranks on those who lack reverence for the feminine"

Sounds like a certain young Stark daughter (or two)!