R+L=J v.49

[Ironborn n bred!]

Wow some good theories! My take on Jon Snow is that he is indeed Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son but still bastard born(I don't think the Dornish would have accepted a marriage between them, a relationship yes its common in Dorne but not a marriage). Ned and Howland Reed found her dying in the tower with Jon and Howland Reed eased Ned's grief with a spell that also tempered his grief and any thought of doing the honourable thing which to Ned is handing Jon over to Robert. A big question that as Robert was no child killer at that time (or any true suggestion he would have)the Lannisters did that dirty work, would Robert had killed Jon? Maybe just because he was Rhaegar's. I think Lyanna told Ned on her death bed that she was with Rhaegar freely and she knew she was the Ice in Rhaegar's song and to make the prophecy come true which in all is what is driving the story right now. The clue's on Jon being R & L's son are all over the books despite GRRM throwing in other rumours too plainly smoke screens he gave it up in the very first book! On Jon's "death" he is calling for Ghost because he will hide inside Ghost while he is in a state of coma the blue rose growing on the wall in Dany's vision's is his rebirth in my opinion and link to Lyanna. Will Melisandre or maybe Bran / Three Eyed Crow see the truth of him? Did Jon have a spell cast on him as a babe to make him look like a Stark by Howland Reed? Maybe he will wake up and have silver hair and purple/indigo eyes and now be fully "fireproof". Will Howland Reed make an appearance and reveal all? We will look pretty dumb if Jon dies but I truly believe if he was dead GRRM would have done it in that chapter.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Wow some good theories! My take on Jon Snow is that he is indeed Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son but still bastard born(I don't think the Dornish would have accepted a marriage between them, a relationship yes its common in Dorne but not a marriage). Ned and Howland Reed found her dying in the tower with Jon and Howland Reed eased Ned's grief with a spell that also tempered his grief and any thought of doing the honourable thing which to Ned is handing Jon over to Robert. A big question that as Robert was no child killer at that time (or any true suggestion he would have)the Lannisters did that dirty work, would Robert had killed Jon? Maybe just because he was Rhaegar's. I think Lyanna told Ned on her death bed that she was with Rhaegar freely and she knew she was the Ice in Rhaegar's song and to make the prophecy come true which in all is what is driving the story right now. The clue's on Jon being R & L's son are all over the books despite GRRM throwing in other rumours too plainly smoke screens he gave it up in the very first book! On Jon's "death" he is calling for Ghost because he will hide inside Ghost while he is in a state of coma the blue rose growing on the wall in Dany's vision's is his rebirth in my opinion and link to Lyanna. Will Melisandre or maybe Bran / Three Eyed Crow see the truth of him? Did Jon have a spell cast on him as a babe to make him look like a Stark by Howland Reed? Maybe he will wake up and have silver hair and purple/indigo eyes and now be fully "fireproof". Will Howland Reed make an appearance and reveal all? We will look pretty dumb if Jon dies but I truly believe if he was dead GRRM would have done it in that chapter.

1. Jon being illegitimate doesn't explain why the three Kingsguard were still there when Ned arrived.

2. Yes, I think Robert absolutely would have killed Jon.

3. Targaryens are not fireproof.

4. Not all Targaryens have to look like Targs. Jon isn't glamoured, he just happens to look like his mother.

5. Targaryens are not fireproof.

6. Howland will probably up at some point.

[Ironborn n bred!]

Apple Martini, Rhaegar believes that Lyanna is the Ice in his song and Jon is the Prince who was promised protection was needed and that is why the kingsguard stayed. Robert may well have killed Jon just for being Rhaegar's but would Eddard have allowed it, in his chapters his memories of the whole thing seems a blur to him. The Targaryen who rides a dragon may likely need to be fireproof which is why I think Jon will take some sort of transformation. GRRM takes great care to tell readers that Jon's hand gets burnt when he defends Mormont from the wight. And his constant hand flexing is nearly always there in his chapters a significant reminder maybe.... You cannot say that Jon is or is not glamoured or won't change it's just a theory of mine that is all. The song is of Ice and Fire he has been the Ice a Stark so far maybe he will awake and be the Fire a Targaryen to make the prophecy true.

[Ygrain]

Apple Martini, Rhaegar believes that Lyanna is the Ice in his song and Jon is the Prince who was promised protection was needed and that is why the kingsguard stayed. Robert may well have killed Jon just for being Rhaegar's but would Eddard have allowed it, in his chapters his memories of the whole thing seems a blur to him. The Targaryen who rides a dragon may likely need to be fireproof which is why I think Jon will take some sort of transformation. GRRM takes great care to tell readers that Jon's hand gets burnt when he defends Mormont from the wight. And his constant hand flexing is nearly always there in his chapters a significant reminder maybe.... You cannot say that Jon is or is not glamoured or won't change it's just a theory of mine that is all. The song is of Ice and Fire he has been the Ice a Stark so far maybe he will awake and be the Fire a Targaryen to make the prophecy true.

1) If the Kingsguard stayed at Rhaegar's order while the next king (Viserys) was left without any Kingsguard protection, then they were breaking their vows, and they explicitely say that they weren't.

2) Targaryens are not fireproof. At the end of ADWD, Dany has badly burnt hands.

[Roadside Rose]

where Mr. Weiss and Mr. Benioff were quizzed about the parents of Jon Snow, a “Game of Thrones” character of mysterious lineage. (“We had a whole conversation about it,” Mr. Benioff said, “and George was pleased that we got the answer right.”)

If D&D can guess it, then it's most likely Rhaegar + Lyanna. Because any other guess would not be so straightforward.

Also in GoT, when Ned visits a brothel to meet Robert's bastard child Barra, he wonders if Rhaegar visited brothels.

That really got me wondering why Ned would care so much about whether Rhaegar visited brothels.

It can only be because he cared about Lyanna and Jon, so he was wondering if Jon had any other half-brothers or sisters who were alive.

It might also be that Ned thinks if Robert married Lyanna, she'd never be happy...

But if I let Lyanna marry Rhaegar, I don't think he would have cheated on her.

And in another interview of GRRM, when he was asked that since Ned is dead, and there is no sign of Howland Reed...how would Jon know his parents..

To which GRRM replied "The shadow knows."

[Roadside Rose]

If the Kingsguard stayed at Rhaegar's order while the next king (Viserys) was left without any Kingsguard protection, then they were breaking their vows, and they explicitely say that they weren't.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

So atleast these three of the Kingsguard were no longer loyal to Aerys, else they would have guarded Aerys.

And for them to guard Lyanna and maybe Jon, then Lyanna had to be married to Rhaegar.

I think these three Kingsguard took Rhaegar as their King.

[Ironborn n bred!]

1) If the Kingsguard stayed at Rhaegar's order while the next king (Viserys) was left without any Kingsguard protection, then they were breaking their vows, and they explicitely say that they weren't.

2) Targaryens are not fireproof. At the end of ADWD, Dany has badly burnt hands.

They had Jaime Lannister and were quickly packed off to Dragonstone before the sacking. And another reason to believe Jon was that important to Rhaegar is the fact they stayed. Doesn't Arthur Dayne say to Ned "now it begins" before they fight? I am sure this has something to do the prophecy he knew of it due to his friendship with Rhaegar. OK Targaryens are not wholly fireproof but it does not seem to kill them like ordinary men, wouldn't most men burn to death or have a festering wound at least.

[Wylla Manderly]

So atleast these three of the Kingsguard were no longer loyal to Aerys, else they would have guarded Aerys.

And for them to guard Lyanna and maybe Jon, then Lyanna had to be married to Rhaegar.

I think these three Kingsguard took Rhaegar as their King.

But Aerys was guarded by a kingsguard, by Jaime. So they were loyal. The question never was why the kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy, but why they stayed. And imo this only can be explained by the presence of the king.

Edited for spelling

[Swan Targ]

If D&D can guess it, then it's most likely Rhaegar + Lyanna. Because any other guess would not be so straightforward.

Also in GoT, when Ned visits a brothel to meet Robert's bastard child Barra, he wonders if Rhaegar visited brothels.

That really got me wondering why Ned would care so much about whether Rhaegar visited brothels.

It can only be because he cared about Lyanna and Jon, so he was wondering if Jon had any other half-brothers or sisters who were alive.

I never thought of this. Interesting.

I did think Ned's thoughts about Rhaegar in a brothel are pretty random. He was even surprised he thought of Rhaegar after so many years.

[Ygrain]

So atleast these three of the Kingsguard were no longer loyal to Aerys, else they would have guarded Aerys.

And for them to guard Lyanna and maybe Jon, then Lyanna had to be married to Rhaegar.

I think these three Kingsguard took Rhaegar as their King.

Excuse me but the very part you are quoting shows that they still considered Aerys the rightful king. There is no need for all seven KG to stay with the king, they can be assigned to other tasks and even take orders from other members of the royal family as long as at least one KG stays with the king. That condition is fulfilled the whole time of their absence, until Jaime turns cloak and kills Aerys, and the succession goes to Viserys who has no KG with him, and the three at the ToJ know that.

They had Jaime Lannister and were quickly packed off to Dragonstone before the sacking. And another reason to believe Jon was that important to Rhaegar is the fact they stayed. Doesn't Arthur Dayne say to Ned "now it begins" before they fight? I am sure this has something to do the prophecy he knew of it due to his friendship with Rhaegar. OK Targaryens are not wholly fireproof but it does not seem to kill them like ordinary men, wouldn't most men burn to death or have a festering wound at least.

Let me reiterate: the KG are sworn to protect the king, and it is the ultimate purpose of their very existence. Putting anything else above their duty is breaking their vows. Yet, these three paragons of knightly values repeatedly emphasize their status as KG, which doesn't make sense if they were in dereliction of duty.

And which instance of Targaryen supposed fireproofness are you referrig to? The funeral pyre was a one-time, magical event. Other than that, there are no special occasions when Targs wouldn't burn.

[Swan Targ]

And in another interview of GRRM, when he was asked that since Ned is dead, and there is no sign of Howland Reed...how would Jon know his parents..

To which GRRM replied "The shadow knows."

What shadow?

[Roadside Rose]

But Aerys was guarded by a kingsguard, by Jaime. So they were loyal. The question never was why the kingsguard were at the Tower of Joy, but why they stayed. And imo this only can be explained by the presence of the king.

Edited for spelling

No. It's clear that they did not want to protect Aerys. Woe to the Usurper if we had been - means if they were guarding Aerys, he would still sit the Iron throne. Which means these three of the Kingsguard no longer wanted Aerys to sit the throne. Ned clearly asks them why they were not guarding the King. I think the Kingsguard were divided or some had sworn their loyalty to Rhaegar.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

“When King’s Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

[Roadside Rose]

What shadow?

I don't know what GRRM meant by that either.

[Roadside Rose]

Let me reiterate: the KG are sworn to protect the king, and it is the ultimate purpose of their very existence. Putting anything else above their duty is breaking their vows. Yet, these three paragons of knightly values repeatedly emphasize their status as KG, which doesn't make sense if they were in dereliction of duty.

Kingsguard are sworn to protect a King. True. But a King who is delusional enough to burn a city, hoping to transform into a dragon that would crush his enemies - needs protection from himself.

[Ironborn n bred!]

Excuse me but the very part you are quoting shows that they still considered Aerys the rightful king. There is no need for all seven KG to stay with the king, they can be assigned to other tasks and even take orders from other members of the royal family as long as at least one KG stays with the king. That condition is fulfilled the whole time of their absence, until Jaime turns cloak and kills Aerys, and the succession goes to Viserys who has no KG with him, and the three at the ToJ know that.

Let me reiterate: the KG are sworn to protect the king, and it is the ultimate purpose of their very existence. Putting anything else above their duty is breaking their vows. Yet, these three paragons of knightly values repeatedly emphasize their status as KG, which doesn't make sense if they were in dereliction of duty.

And which instance of Targaryen supposed fireproofness are you referrig to? The funeral pyre was a one-time, magical event. Other than that, there are no special occasions when Targs wouldn't burn.

Jeez calm down we are just discussing a book. Doesn't Rhaegar indicate to Jaime that there will be changes soon? Was he planning on having the mad king step aside for him to take the throne? And if anyone was going take an order from Rhaegar to protect Lyanna & Jon it would be Arthur Dayne his closest friend and would he be in with Rhaegar's plan anyway,.I get the sense that Rhaegar and his 3 kingsguard were almost working their own agenda a young Jaime Lannister wasn't privy to. Doesn't Dany also get through the flames in the House of the Undying too? And sit on top of her dragon who is literally hot to the touch and in the pit where Drogon washes her with his hot breath. She is not an ordinary woman in this sense is she? Any other person would surely die or does it mean anyone could sit on a dragon....

[Swan Targ]

Don't you guys think it's kinda creepy that when Rhaegar met Lyanna and became infatuated with her, she was 13 and he was 23?

Was she 13 or 14?

Still

this makes me uncomfortable sometimes

[Ygrain]

Kingsguard are sworn to protect a King. True. But a King who is delusional enough to burn a city, hoping to transform into a dragon that would crush his enemies - needs protection from himself.

First, the KG didn’t know about this intention of Aerys‘, second, you have there Hightower who stood watching as a man was being roasted to death while his son was let to strangle himself watching, and said that it was not up to them to judge the king. Hightower follows his oath to the letter, not letting his reason or morals interfere. There is nothing in the text to suggest that he had a change of heart.

No. It's clear that they did not want to protect Aerys. Woe to the Usurper if we had been - means if they were guarding Aerys, he would still sit the Iron throne. Which means these three of the Kingsguard no longer wanted Aerys to sit the throne. Ned clearly asks them why they were not guarding the King. I think the Kingsguard were divided or some had sworn their loyalty to Rhaegar.

„Woe to the Usurper“ belongs to the previous response in the conversation, which ties to the battle of Trident. And I fail to perceive what in “Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.” makes you think that they didn’t want Aerys to be king, as it says the very contrary. All their responses to Ned say that they were not at the places where he had expected them because they were assigned other duty, which, however, did not interfer with their primary KG purpose. If you take into account all the options that Ned mentions, you have there 1) protecting the Crown Prince, 2) protecting the king, 3) leading the Siege of Storms’End, 4) protecting Viserys as the next in the succession line. Ned apparently considers all four occasions legitimate for the KG presence, even though not all of them entail guarding the king.

Jeez calm down we are just discussing a book. Doesn't Rhaegar indicate to Jaime that there will be changes soon? Was he planning on having the mad king step aside for him to take the throne? And if anyone was going take an order from Rhaegar to protect Lyanna & Jon it would be Arthur Dayne his closest friend and would he be in with Rhaegar's plan anyway,.I get the sense that Rhaegar and his 3 kingsguard were almost working their own agenda a young Jaime Lannister wasn't privy to.

?Not really sure what brings the request for a calm down? But whatever. No matter what Rhaegar plans to do, Aerys is still the king, and the KG are sworn to him. If they switch allegiance, then they are oathbreakers, because swearing an oath doesn’t allow any “if” or “unless”. It doesn’t matter that the reason might be legitimate – the whole realm knew that Aerys was batshit crazy towards the end, yet Jaime still has shit for honour for breaking his vows. Dayne was surely Rhaegar’s friend, and would support him wholeheartedly (and I think it’s not unreasonable to assume that he was walking a very fine line between his friendship and his oath), but if Rhaegar’s plans interfered with Dayne’s KG duty, he wouldn’t be able to follow it without becoming an oathbreaker and knowing all too well that he was an oathbreaker.

Doesn't Dany also get through the flames in the House of the Undying too? And sit on top of her dragon who is literally hot to the touch and in the pit where Drogon washes her with his hot breath. She is not an ordinary woman in this sense is she? Any other person would surely die or does it mean anyone could sit on a dragon....

Did she get in direct contact with flames in the HotU? Did her clothes burn away to indicate so? No, they didn’t, and neither did they in the Pit. Also, it is not stated that Drogon was to hot to touch, only that he emanated heat. You might want to check the summary post at the beginning of the thread, with the link to the GRRM saying that while Targaryen tolerate heat slightly better that an average person (liking hot baths etc), they are NOT immune to fire.

[Ygrain]

Don't you guys think it's kinda creepy that when Rhaegar met Lyanna and became infatuated with her, she was 13 and he was 23?

Was she 13 or 14?

Still

this makes me uncomfortable sometimes

Nope. Even if it wasn't for different standards, both physical and mental maturity are highly individual, and Lyanna was apparently no child in either respect. A she-wolf, not a pup.

[aquintus]

I think it's interesting that A) there were 3 different Kingsguard members at the Tower and that B) only 1 Kingsguard is required to be with the king in order to fulfill their vow. It completely tanks the whole vow to Rhaegar argument since they could have done both- maintained their Kingsguard vow and any order from Rhaegar- if 2 had stayed and 1 had gone to Viserys, and yet all 3 stayed.

[finger]

Don't you guys think it's kinda creepy that when Rhaegar met Lyanna and became infatuated with her, she was 13 and he was 23?

Was she 13 or 14?

Still

this makes me uncomfortable sometimes

Danaerys married Drogo at 13.