R+L=J v.49

[finger]

First, the KG didn’t know about this intention of Aerys‘, second, you have there Hightower who stood watching as a man was being roasted to death while his son was let to strangle himself watching, and said that it was not up to them to judge the king. Hightower follows his oath to the letter, not letting his reason or morals interfere. There is nothing in the text to suggest that he had a change of heart.

„Woe to the Usurper“ belongs to the previous response in the conversation, which ties to the battle of Trident. And I fail to perceive what in “Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.” makes you think that they didn’t want Aerys to be king, as it says the very contrary. All their responses to Ned say that they were not at the places where he had expected them because they were assigned other duty, which, however, did not interfer with their primary KG purpose. If you take into account all the options that Ned mentions, you have there 1) protecting the Crown Prince, 2) protecting the king, 3) leading the Siege of Storms’End, 4) protecting Viserys as the next in the succession line. Ned apparently considers all four occasions legitimate for the KG presence, even though not all of them entail guarding the king.

?Not really sure what brings the request for a calm down? But whatever. No matter what Rhaegar plans to do, Aerys is still the king, and the KG are sworn to him. If they switch allegiance, then they are oathbreakers, because swearing an oath doesn’t allow any “if” or “unless”. It doesn’t matter that the reason might be legitimate – the whole realm knew that Aerys was batshit crazy towards the end, yet Jaime still has shit for honour for breaking his vows. Dayne was surely Rhaegar’s friend, and would support him wholeheartedly (and I think it’s not unreasonable to assume that he was walking a very fine line between his friendship and his oath), but if Rhaegar’s plans interfered with Dayne’s KG duty, he wouldn’t be able to follow it without becoming an oathbreaker and knowing all too well that he was an oathbreaker.

I'm still at odds with the deeds of the KG at th TOJ. IMO they had to logical possibilities:

1. Run with Viserys

2. Flee with Jon

Or even both, but I wonder how well received they'd be in Dragonstone in this case.

Somehow we're led to think they rued for not having died protecting their king or the crown prince. But the notion that they were there just waiting for someone to come across them, so that they could make their last stance, is pure nonsense.

I guess they were, obviously hidden, taking the time so that Lyanna could recover from childbirth and be strong enough to travel. Being Arthur Dayne one of them, I guess they counted on Starfall. When they were discovered, they only could fight to death, given that Lyanna was bed bound. I don't think any of these implies Jon's legitimacy. They were there as a last service to their prince and friend, and they didn't plan to fight, but once they were challenged, they couldn't step back.

But still, some pieces don't fit.

I think chivalry meant to let Ned pay his respects to his sister before the fight. Why didn't they oblige?

Their conversation is ambiguous. One doesn't know if Ned asked them why they hadn't go with Viserys, or if he was actualy ofering them to go with Viserys. If the latter, they should have accepted.

If they thought Jon was their king, they should try to preserve his life above all. Just dying in a desperate fight is a queer way to honour a vow, if their death doesn't spare the king's life.

Or else, if their true king was Viserys, they should go and protect him, instead of dying uselessly.

I just can't see it clearly.

[Eurybia]

Don't you guys think it's kinda creepy that when Rhaegar met Lyanna and became infatuated with her, she was 13 and he was 23?

Was she 13 or 14?

Still

this makes me uncomfortable sometimes

Not really. It's a medieval-type world, and such age differences and youth in brides was very common among the nobility during much of history. Nowadays, yes, it would be inappropriate, but the standards of the world are so different to ours.

I'm still at odds with the deeds of the KG at th TOJ. IMO they had to logical possibilities:

1. Run with Viserys

2. Flee with Jon

Or even both, but I wonder how well received they'd be in Dragonstone in this case.

Somehow we're led to think they rued for not having died protecting their king or the crown prince. But the notion that they were there just waiting for someone to come across them, so that they could make their last stance, is pure nonsense.

I guess they were, obviously hidden, taking the time so that Lyanna could recover from childbirth and be strong enough to travel. Being Arthur Dayne one of them, I guess they counted on Starfall. When they were discovered, they only could fight to death, given that Lyanna was bed bound. I don't think any of these implies Jon's legitimacy. They were there as a last service to their prince and friend, and they didn't plan to fight, but once they were challenged, they couldn't step back.

But still, some pieces don't fit.

I think chivalry meant to let Ned pay his respects to his sister before the fight. Why didn't they oblige?

Their conversation is ambiguous. One doesn't know if Ned asked them why they hadn't go with Viserys, or if he was actualy ofering them to go with Viserys. If the latter, they should have accepted.

If they thought Jon was their king, they should try to preserve his life above all. Just dying in a desperate fight is a queer way to honour a vow, if their death doesn't spare the king's life.

Or else, if their true king was Viserys, they should go and protect him, instead of dying uselessly.

I just can't see it clearly.

What I get from that scene is that they are doing their duty not only to protect their king but to preserve his right to the throne, his true identity. Obviously, the three KG weren't gonna win him the kingdoms back, but ask yourself whether Ned was going to leave that tower without his sister and nephew. If Ned takes Jon, there are two options, really: he gives him to Robert (akin to death, IMO) or Ned hides him and no one ever knows, including Jon. I imagine such a thing goes against the spirit, if not the letter, of their code.

Their last stand was not empty valor. I read that "Now it begins" as Arthur Dayne saying that this fight was the beginning of a new struggle. I think it's really important to remember that it wasn't a suicide mission; Jaime says Dayne could have destroyed five of Tommen's KG by himself. If they'd won- which they almost did- they would have been able to put some plans into motion. It would have bought them time, at least.

Every time this comes up, I keep thinking about what we know about Hightower. This is a man who follows his oath to the letter, even when it makes him witness some horrible things. Would that man place a mistress and a bastard over his Oath? Would he claim his oath allowed him to leave his king unprotected? I can't buy that a man like that would witness his queen being raped, would watch a man roasted alive, and then give up to protect a love nest in the Dornish mountais, even if Rhaegar did ask him to. The instant he knew Viserys was king, I think he'd have left Lyanna and Jon.

[FrozenFire3]

Don't you guys think it's kinda creepy that when Rhaegar met Lyanna and became infatuated with her, she was 13 and he was 23?

Was she 13 or 14?

Still

this makes me uncomfortable sometimes

To modern standards is unconceivable. But we are talking of a medieval/renassaince styled world where such a kind of arrangements were normal. Countess Caterina Sforza was betrothed to a 30 years old Lord Girolamo Riario at the tender age of 10. The marriage was consummated only 4 years later.

Another example comes to mind with very interesting parallels...

Disclaimer: GRRM's historical correspondences are never linear. That said, this little historical piece is worth our attention, me thinks ;)

King of Sicily, King of Jerusalem, King of the Romans, Holy Roman Emperor, King of the And...*cough*... Frederick II, Stupor Mundi (the Wonder of the World). As a patron of the arts, poetry and science, he was not only one of the most important rulers of the middle ages but also a learned humanist whose passion for knowledge was endless.

Frederick II left an astounding architectural 'imprint' to the world, much of which is scattered across southern Italy (sublime example, the World Heritage site of Castel del Monte whose design follows strict geometric, astronomic and even alchemical dictates. A fusion of poetry and mathematics in stone. Just google 'Castel del Monte' and you'll find amazing images).

He officially married three times, but the only woman Frederick ever really loved was Bianca Lancia (literally translated 'White Spear'), descendant of the Piedmont Lancia family (a northener to Italian standards). Frederick met Bianca during a parade lap of the imperial cities, in anticipation of the fight against the towns of the Lombard League. The emperor fell in love with the young lady (she was only fifteen) and brought her to the castle of Melfi. Almost certainly the Lucanian fortress was the place where the Emperor and Bianca Lancia conceived Manfred, Frederick's favourite son. According to a legend handed down by father Bonaventura da Lama and recovered by the historian Pantaleo, during the pregnancy of Manfred, Frederick kept her lover locked in a tower of the castle of Gioia del Colle ('Joy of the Hill'). Desire for privacy, whim, jealousy? Bonaventura argues for the latter, but truth is lost to the mist of time.

Frederick dedicated Bianca two poems ('De le mia disïanza' and 'Poi ch'a voi piace, amore'), where he adresses her as 'flower of every flower' and describes her scent as 'sweeter than a rose' (the flower symbolism is reiterated in this medieval miniature portraying the two lovers: http://www.stupormun...ges/Coppia2.jpg). About his feelings towards Bianca he tells us 'as soon as I cast my eyes over you I was irremediably in your power' and 'my body and heart you keep strongly in chains'.

Was Bianca ever the emperor’s wife? It is said (source: the English chronicler Matthew of Paris) that on her deathbed after birthing their last child, in a ceremony celebrated by Archbishop Berardo di Castacca, the bride obtained the legitimacy of the love bond and of the children born in their relationship.

[J. Stargaryen]

<snip>

That's really interesting. I like the Joy of the Hill part. I'm reminded of Gerion Lannister's bastard daughter, Joy Hill. I wonder if that is a coincidence.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

What shadow?

The Shadow was a well known radio drama and series of pulp novels from the 1930s. GRRM was making a cultural reference and a joke. It has nothing to do with the plot of Asoiaf.

[finger]

Not really. It's a medieval-type world, and such age differences and youth in brides was very common among the nobility during much of history. Nowadays, yes, it would be inappropriate, but the standards of the world are so different to ours.

What I get from that scene is that they are doing their duty not only to protect their king but to preserve his right to the throne, his true identity. Obviously, the three KG weren't gonna win him the kingdoms back, but ask yourself whether Ned was going to leave that tower without his sister and nephew. If Ned takes Jon, there are two options, really: he gives him to Robert (akin to death, IMO) or Ned hides him and no one ever knows, including Jon. I imagine such a thing goes against the spirit, if not the letter, of their code.

Their last stand was not empty valor. I read that "Now it begins" as Arthur Dayne saying that this fight was the beginning of a new struggle. I think it's really important to remember that it wasn't a suicide mission; Jaime says Dayne could have destroyed five of Tommen's KG by himself. If they'd won- which they almost did- they would have been able to put some plans into motion. It would have bought them time, at least.

Every time this comes up, I keep thinking about what we know about Hightower. This is a man who follows his oath to the letter, even when it makes him witness some horrible things. Would that man place a mistress and a bastard over his Oath? Would he claim his oath allowed him to leave his king unprotected? I can't buy that a man like that would witness his queen being raped, would watch a man roasted alive, and then give up to protect a love nest in the Dornish mountais, even if Rhaegar did ask him to. The instant he knew Viserys was king, I think he'd have left Lyanna and Jon.

Obviously, they couldn't hand Jon to Ned. They thought he was honour bound to Robert, and that meant Jon's death. They couldn't have expected Ned to betray everything for Lyanna's sake.

IMO, the conversation is a game of words. Dayne meant the words ended and the fighting began, Ned mean that R-L story came to an end.

But the rest throws salt in the wound. The more I think about it, the queerer I find their behaviour. The fight was a matter of duty and honour, they respected each other. Talking and concessions were supposed to be. I guess Lyanna would ask to see her brother before the fighting. At least, Ned should have been allowed a visit. On top of that, they could have tried to negotiate an honourable retreat. After all, Jon kept being Ned's nephew, the easiest solution for him was to allow the KG exile with Jon.

I know most people here think that they had no other way out, but I still think they could have searched better.

[Roadside Rose]

Don't you guys think it's kinda creepy that when Rhaegar met Lyanna and became infatuated with her, she was 13 and he was 23?

Was she 13 or 14?

Still

this makes me uncomfortable sometimes

She was 8 years younger than him, not 10. So if he was 24 at his death, she was 16.

[Roadside Rose]

The Shadow was a well known radio drama and series of pulp novels from the 1930s. GRRM was making a cultural reference and a joke. It has nothing to do with the plot of Asoiaf.

Oh...I'm glad :)

[FrozenFire3]

That's really interesting. I like the Joy of the Hill part. I'm reminded of Gerion Lannister's bastard daughter, Joy Hill. I wonder if that is a coincidence.

Good catch on Joy Hill. It completely escaped me.

Here is our real life version of the tower of Joy of the Hill or the Tower of the Empress: http://rete.comuni-i...009/366966/view and http://it.wikipedia....imperatrice.jpg

As for the parallel, it could be a curious coincidence or it could be an (un)conscious reminescence of medieval studies/readings. As far as I know, Martin is very much into Republican Rome history (Jon's 'Cesaricide' being an applicative example lol). But his reading habits cover a very wide spectrum. Not to mention his travels. I wouldn't be surpised if he read about the Wonder of the World and his intriguing biography. Tower of Joy... of the Hill and all ;)

Btw there is a much darker and more gruesome version of the legend, where Bianca dies after giving birth to Manfred but not before reacting to the not-so-veiled accusation of betrayal in a very peculiar way. Not being able to resist the humiliation and won by pain, she cut off her breasts and sent them to the emperor on a tray along with baby Manfred (in the crypt under the tower there are two protuberances of stone that are said to represent the breasts of Bianca Lancia :stunned: ). From that day on, every night in the castle tower you will hear a faint, heartbreaking lament: the lament of an offended woman endlessly protesting her innocence.

[Swan Targ]

She was 8 years younger than him, not 10. So if he was 24 at his death, she was 16.

So he was 22 in Harrenhal?

He died when he was 24, and since Harrenhal and the Battle of Trident, 2 years have passed, right? 1 year in KL plus 1 year in the ToJ.

So when they met Lyanna was 14 and he was 22.

When they died, Lyanna was 16 and he was 24.

Am I right in this?

[J. Stargaryen]

So he was 22 in Harrenhal?

He died when he was 24, and since Harrenhal and the Battle of Trident, 2 years have passed, right? 1 year in KL plus 1 year in the ToJ.

So when they met Lyanna was 14 and he was 22.

When they died, Lyanna was 16 and he was 24.

Am I right in this?

We don't know his exact age as far as I know, only his birth year; 259 AL.

[Alia of the knife]

What shadow?

Again, the enter function not working. :bang: It was a series back in the day that my dad was fond of, (he use to scare me into behaving with that line), and one that I believe that Martin is referencing. And who knows, maybe a little "double entendre" as well, - MEL. On the issue of the ages for that time, I believe that Martin is making a point about the short-lived time span that people of that period. A womans life expectancy was about 32, having been worn out by multiple pregnancies, as well as vitamin deficiencies no doubt caused by those pregnancies, and not mention disease and wars, so marrying between thirteen and fifteen would have really been about mid-life. Because our life expectancy is about 70-80, we still see women giving birth into their forties. I had a Co-worker who had her first child at forty, and then her second at forty-two, another co-worker who had a child at fifty-three- all natural. While these are still anomalies to some degree, and infertility does increase with age, perhaps it's a matter of evolution catching up with us, saying that as laymen of course. But, Henry the VII Mother Margaret Tudor gave birth to him AT thirteen, for her Husband did not suffer to wait. Even in that time, it was expected the Husband wait until she was at least fourteen-fifteen, but he did not. Henry was very sickly, and it was said that if not for the tender and loving ministrations of his Mother, would have died. It's hard to view a girl of thirteen having that kind of maturity to care for such a sick infant, but again, women of that time were trained the MINUTE they could walk for their lot in life. and running a castle, managing the operations was nothing short of being s CEO of a Corporation today, and an adolescence, or "childhood" is actually a modern construct less than a hundred years old.

[King of Winters]

So he was 22 in Harrenhal?

He died when he was 24, and since Harrenhal and the Battle of Trident, 2 years have passed, right? 1 year in KL plus 1 year in the ToJ.

So when they met Lyanna was 14 and he was 22.

When they died, Lyanna was 16 and he was 24.

Am I right in this?

We don't know his exact age as far as I know, only his birth year; 259 AL.

Swan Targ is right on the ages.

[J. Stargaryen]

Swan Targ is right on the ages.

Based on? Do we have any indication of when Rhaegar's birthday is?

[Alia of the knife]

To modern standards is unconceivable. But we are talking of a medieval/renassaince styled world where such a kind of arrangements were normal. Countess Caterina Sforza was betrothed to a 30 years old Lord Girolamo Riario at the tender age of 10. The marriage was consummated only 4 years later.

Another example comes to mind with very interesting parallels...

Disclaimer: GRRM's historical correspondences are never linear. That said, this little historical piece is worth our attention, me thinks ;)

King of Sicily, King of Jerusalem, King of the Romans, Holy Roman Emperor, King of the And...*cough*... Frederick II, Stupor Mundi (the Wonder of the World). As a patron of the arts, poetry and science, he was not only one of the most important rulers of the middle ages but also a learned humanist whose passion for knowledge was endless.

Frederick II left an astounding architectural 'imprint' to the world, much of which is scattered across southern Italy (sublime example, the World Heritage site of Castel del Monte whose design follows strict geometric, astronomic and even alchemical dictates. A fusion of poetry and mathematics in stone. Just google 'Castel del Monte' and you'll find amazing images).

He officially married three times, but the only woman Frederick ever really loved was Bianca Lancia (literally translated 'White Spear'), descendant of the Piedmont Lancia family (a northener to Italian standards). Frederick met Bianca during a parade lap of the imperial cities, in anticipation of the fight against the towns of the Lombard League. The emperor fell in love with the young lady (she was only fifteen) and brought her to the castle of Melfi. Almost certainly the Lucanian fortress was the place where the Emperor and Bianca Lancia conceived Manfred, Frederick's favourite son. According to a legend handed down by father Bonaventura da Lama and recovered by the historian Pantaleo, during the pregnancy of Manfred, Frederick kept her lover locked in a tower of the castle of Gioia del Colle ('Joy of the Hill'). Desire for privacy, whim, jealousy? Bonaventura argues for the latter, but truth is lost to the mist of time.

Frederick dedicated Bianca two poems ('De le mia disïanza' and 'Poi ch'a voi piace, amore'), where he adresses her as 'flower of every flower' and describes her scent as 'sweeter than a rose' (the flower symbolism is reiterated in this medieval miniature portraying the two lovers: http://www.stupormun...ges/Coppia2.jpg). About his feelings towards Bianca he tells us 'as soon as I cast my eyes over you I was irremediably in your power' and 'my body and heart you keep strongly in chains'.

Was Bianca ever the emperor’s wife? It is said (source: the English chronicler Matthew of Paris) that on her deathbed after birthing their last child, in a ceremony celebrated by Archbishop Berardo di Castacca, the bride obtained the legitimacy of the love bond and of the children born in their relationship.

Was there a book written about them? This sounds very familiar to me.

[Alia of the knife]

Based on? Do we have any indication of when Rhaegar's birthday is?

Rhaegar : Born 259 and died 283 Lyanna: Born 267 and died 283

[King of Winters]

Based on? Do we have any indication of when Rhaegar's birthday is?

Rhaegar was born on the same day as the Tragedy at Summerhall, which was 259 AL

[J. Stargaryen]

Rhaegar : Born 259 and died 283 Lyanna: Born 267 and died 283

Right, and since I mentioned Rhaegar's year of birth in the initial relevant post, I was wondering what King of the Starks' point was.

[J. Stargaryen]

So he was 22 in Harrenhal?

He died when he was 24, and since Harrenhal and the Battle of Trident, 2 years have passed, right? 1 year in KL plus 1 year in the ToJ.

So when they met Lyanna was 14 and he was 22.

When they died, Lyanna was 16 and he was 24.

Am I right in this?

Swan Targ is right on the ages.

Rhaegar was born on the same day as the Tragedy at Summerhall, which was 259 AL

I'm not sure where the confusion is stemming from. I'm obviously aware of Rhaegar's year of birth since I included it in my initial response. What I was pointing out was that, as far as I know, there is no way to be sure whether he was, say, 20 or 21 during the Tourney at Harrenhal in 281, or; whether he was 23 or 24 when he died.

[King of Winters]

I'm not sure where the confusion is stemming from. I'm obviously aware of Rhaegar's year of birth since I included it in my initial response. What I was pointing out was that, as far as I know, there is no way to be sure whether he was, say, 20 or 21 during the Tourney at Harrenhal in 281, or; whether he was 23 or 24 when he died.

I understand. Whether or not he'd had his 22nd name day yet or not in 281 in time for the Tourney or 24th in 283.