R+L=J v.49

[MtnLion]

Hmmm, but Lyanna is dying, were they just planning on staying there after she died and watching Jon die? Cause they "can't leave" according to some, cause that is where the "King" is. Jon could not give a command so they just stay and die? Or spend years at that tower raising Jon?

Defend the King? From Ned? Not take orders from Lyanna? Jon is not the King, at best he is a heir? He is not crowned nor is he of age.

Yeah watch Lyanna die and then just sit there until they all die. Great plan, way to defend the king. Aside from the fact that the KG does not actually have to be with the King to defend him as pointed out by Jamie as being one of their rules. They only need to make sure he is safe.

Re Jaime and the meeting that required all of the Kingsguard to attend, he ascertained that two sufficiently reliable and capable men were protecting the king during the meeting, and immediately afterwards sent a Kingsguard back tot he king.

We know that Hightower and Dayne are both at the tower. We don't know what they are doing, but it is likely that they are afraid to travel with Lyanna in her current condition. It also seems likely that they are making arrangements to travel to a more secure location, with the king. As far as we know the Kingsguard only take orders from the king or his heir, if designated, which it appears that Rhaegar was.

[MtnLion]

3. They do like hot bath, it's the same as being fire proof. I mean no fire is involved and water is basically the opposite of fire. But it is a hot bath, that's basically the same as a dragon breathing fire on you right?

Here, I will save you the trouble of opening the first page and finding the links:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?

Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targ fire immunity, see this thread.

[MtnLion]

1. An order from Rhaegar explains them being there as they were guarding Lyanna before Jon was born and after Rhaegar left. If they were married then Lyanna is Princess Lyanna and it falls in line with guarding the royal family. Either or both explain the KG. But the KG do in fact take orders from the King and the royal family. Also if Rhaegar is riding to KL not just because the war but to remove his father, than the KG has probably excepted Rhaegar as the King, which is probably why Gerold obeyed him.

Rhaegar gave them an order (it seems, we don't know for sure, but GRRM suggests it in an SSM) to guard the tower. That does NOT explain why they stayed and fought as a unit. The king is dead, they know that, Rhaegar is dead, they know that (following orders of a dead man?), "Prince Viserys" is elsewhere with no kingsguard, they know that. So why are they there and ready to fight? They tell us, it is a VOW. Jaime tells us the VOW of the Kingsguard is to "protect and defend the king", there are other promises, but that is the vow. If prince Viserys does not merit to have even one of the Kingsguard with him, and the Lord Commander is present to make that call, what possible explanation can justify that action? Only one, the king is present and they are defending the king.

[MtnLion]

2. Yes Robert may have wanted to kill him.

Not just kill him, he is securing his throne. He accepted the Lannister's gifts of Elia and her children, and Ned was wroth. So wroth that Ned and Robert nearly went to war again in King's Landing, only Jon Arryn was able to keep that from happening. Why did Robert want to kill Daenerys? Because she might have a male child is why.

[Ser Creighton]

Here, I will save you the trouble of opening the first page and finding the links:

Hahahaha, it was joke, an obvious joke.

[Ser Creighton]

Not just kill him, he is securing his throne. He accepted the Lannister's gifts of Elia and her children, and Ned was wroth. So wroth that Ned and Robert nearly went to war again in King's Landing, only Jon Arryn was able to keep that from happening. Why did Robert want to kill Daenerys? Because she might have a male child is why.

I stand by my answer, I agreed Robert may have killed him. I know the story too, not sure how much you want me to say about it. He may have killed Jon really, really, really, painfully? Seriously how much do you want me to put in it?

[MtnLion]

6. Yes Howland will show up, according to me he was already at Winterfell and confronted Aegon.

What does your fanfic have to do with this?

But that's a guess. But what does Howland know? He wasn't in the room, so Ned could have told him anything. He may know Jon is R+L but not the full context of it. Ned may not have been very talkative.

Surmises, does it really matter in the long run? No, what will matter is the punch line that Jon deserves the throne after he has already won it. Or, perhaps Daenerys will figure it out on her own and put Jon on the throne, that matches up with the HotU vision from the screenplay.

Personally I think Jon was moved along with Wylla to Starfall before Ned arrived.

Fanfic, again. There is no real reason to move Jon away from his mother, and if he is, he must be accompanied with at least one Kingsguard, that is the nature of the Kingsguard.

Lyanna would need a midwife at the very least. The KG do not have to be with the King to guard him, pointed out as an actual rule by Jamie "Who guards the King?" "And do we trust these men?" As long as the king is safe with trusted people the KG has fulfilled it's duty.

Yes, and what was the reason that they were trusted, and HOW LONG where they trusted?Only as long as the meeting lasted, immediately afterward one was dispatched to guard the king. Also, they are within the Red Keep, which is within King's Landing and well guarded by Goldcloaks. Different situation. In the case of being in the field Rhaegar had three with him, one for Aerys in the Red Keep, and three were left with Lyanna; in the field.

Starfall would be far safer than the Tower and a fevered mother to the point of being on her death bed could not have tended to a baby.

Only as far as you are thinking, the baby is utterly safe in the care of the Kingsguard, far safer than any populated area, because no one will be asking questions. Stealth is what the Kingsguard and Jon need, stealth is what they have at the tower.

Staying at the tower with Lyanna serves the purpose to actually hide Jon and still if married guard a member of the family or if not obey an order from Rhaegar.

And, after Rhaegar dies, do they continue to follow the order of a dead man, and call it a VOW? Not even remotely likely.

[wylla manderley]

I don't think R+L=J is going to be of major importance now. Yes I believe it, but GRRM must have seen everyone discussing it now, so he needs to lessen the importance of it, I think. Personally I think Jon is "dead" and he will go to Ghost and live on in him.

[MtnLion]

I don't think R+L=J is going to be of major importance now. Yes I believe it, but GRRM must have seen everyone discussing it now, so he needs to lessen the importance of it, I think. Personally I think Jon is "dead" and he will go to Ghost and live on in him.

That would not make literary sense at all. If he did plan to change the ending that he had in mind before he even wrote the first sentence, that would nullify all of the work that followed that sentence. GRRM is not unhappy that people were smart enough to read and understand, he has always encouraged people to keep reading. The number of people who know R + L = J are a very small percentage of readers, and those that just watch the screenplay are utterly without a clue.

[Ser Creighton]

Rhaegar gave them an order (it seems, we don't know for sure, but GRRM suggests it in an SSM) to guard the tower. That does NOT explain why they stayed and fought as a unit. The king is dead, they know that, Rhaegar is dead, they know that (following orders of a dead man?), "Prince Viserys" is elsewhere with no kingsguard, they know that. So why are they there and ready to fight? They tell us, it is a VOW. Jaime tells us the VOW of the Kingsguard is to "protect and defend the king", there are other promises, but that is the vow. If prince Viserys does not merit to have even one of the Kingsguard with him, and the Lord Commander is present to make that call, what possible explanation can justify that action? Only one, the king is present and they are defending the king.

They actually don't point out which Vow, and I basically have them talking about the full Vow of the KG not just part of it. How would they have gotten to Varys or anyone else, and being dead does not end an order. They obey there final order, and there can be other reasons for them being there, I do not dismiss those in my post, I acknowledge them. But proof is lacking on either side so I do not dismiss any of the options.

I do not really count a marriage as there is never any direct text evidence. But I do not count it as as being impossible either it just lacks supporting evidence at this time. An order works just as well as anything else. I still maintain Jon could of been moved, I am not saying it is given, but a lack of any recollection of a baby at the tower and the fact that Jon was known to be at Starfall suggests he could of been there before hand. If Ned could of taken him there so could someone else. Jon being moved does change anything who he is, it's just a matter of logic for me. If they were married, when Ned moved Jon did that suddenly mean Jon was a illegitimate? If a wet nurse took him to Starfall does that mean Jon is suddenly not Jon? No. The KG Vow by the way is not just to guard the king, the Vow is to protect the king. It's game over for the KG, the war is lost. They are not going to flee and they don't want to. They could not really hope to guard Jon for much longer. Hiding a baby with people you trust is easy. Trying to run around Westeros with Jon? that's just going to get Jon killed.

Just do me a favor ask yourself what there options were, or what options they were giving themselves. They run around with Jon and everyone knows who Jon is. These are the men that took Lyanna, Robert wants them dead, this isn't Selmy, there is no pardon in there future. These are men the king hates and wants destroyed. They have a woman they probably swore to protect to the Crown prince, They vow to guard the tower, Lyanna, the baby, all three, it doesn't matter. Eventually these guys are breaking some vows. They took a Vow to protect the king, they didn't protect the king, Jamie actually gives you a lot of insight into how Vows work. I don't doubt the KG went through anything different, at some point they have to go with there own discretion on which Vows to follow. Did they have a ship, gold, supplies, another place to hide. How were they going to hide these 3 famous members of the KG. Stay at the tower forever? Unlikely. Raise an army from the allies who all just bent the knee? Abandon a dying Lyanna? I mean the options are very limited for these three men and they are going to get killed at some point and then they are not defending the king are they? What more important to stand in front of the king? Or make sure the King is safe? That's what it comes down to for me. But that does not mean I am right.

[Ser Creighton]

What does your fanfic have to do with this?Surmises, does it really matter in the long run? No, what will matter is the punch line that Jon deserves the throne after he has already won it. Or, perhaps Daenerys will figure it out on her own and put Jon on the throne, that matches up with the HotU vision from the screenplay.Fanfic, again. There is no real reason to move Jon away from his mother, and if he is, he must be accompanied with at least one Kingsguard, that is the nature of the Kingsguard.Yes, and what was the reason that they were trusted, and HOW LONG where they trusted?Only as long as the meeting lasted, immediately afterward one was dispatched to guard the king. Also, they are within the Red Keep, which is within King's Landing and well guarded by Goldcloaks. Different situation. In the case of being in the field Rhaegar had three with him, one for Aerys in the Red Keep, and three were left with Lyanna; in the field.Only as far as you are thinking, the baby is utterly safe in the care of the Kingsguard, far safer than any populated area, because no one will be asking questions. Stealth is what the Kingsguard and Jon need, stealth is what they have at the tower.And, after Rhaegar dies, do they continue to follow the order of a dead man, and call it a VOW? Not even remotely likely.

Fanfic? Hmmmm.

Well okay so Lyanna was kidnapped, and raped, Wylla is Jons mother, there was no marriage and Jon is not a king. That's going with what the books tell me. So your entire belief is fanfic. And unless you can give me a fact acknowledged by Martin then R=L=J is fanfic as well. You fact in text stating otherwise from the author or the books. Please continue with your fanfic. At least I use logic. You seem to think a tower in the middle of nowhere with a dying woman is a safe place and a good place for a baby. I say Starfall with a wet nurse was safer.

Please sense you brought up proof give me all the martin quotes acknowledging your facts. If mine is fanfic then your claiming yours are fact. Give me the Martin statements that say this now. Or enjoy living in your own hypocrisy. I want the quote saying your fanfic about Jon, Rhaegar, and Lyanna is fact, from Martin. You must have it, your claiming that. So are you being a hypocrite?

I want this quote from Martin saying Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and that is why the KG was there. Other wise stop talking about your fafic. Cause you don't want to here fanfic by your own addmission.

[Swan Targ]

I don't think R+L=J is going to be of major importance now. Yes I believe it, but GRRM must have seen everyone discussing it now, so he needs to lessen the importance of it, I think. Personally I think Jon is "dead" and he will go to Ghost and live on in him.

That's boring.

If he's dead, his whole arc is completely useless.

[MtnLion]

They actually don't point out which Vow, and I basically have them talking about the full Vow of the KG not just part of it.

Okay, let's stop right here and show me the complete Kigsguard vow. I have quoted for you what Jaime says that it is, do you have anything more?

[MtnLion]

I want this quote from Martin saying Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and that is why the KG was there. Other wise stop talking about your fafic. Cause you don't want to here fanfic by your own addmission.

Don't need a quote, it is quite obvious from what we know of the story. Of course, if you take a horse to water he may not drink it.

[Ser Creighton]

Don't need a quote, it is quite obvious from what we know of the story. Of course, if you take a horse to water he may not drink it.

So it's fanfic and you have no proof and it's just made up. And yes you do need a quote to prove it, which you can't. Now I don't even believe it's fanfic, I call it a semi substantiated theory. But it serves as an example that just because anyone supports any theory that does not make it fanfic. I never claimed Howland read to be at Winterfell to be a fact. I simply stated it's something I believe. Me and me alone, I didn't write a story about it, or say it was a fact. I can't prove R+L=J, but it is a theory I follow. In my posts I don't claim facts are facts without them being facts. Sure I can make a mistake like anyone, but that does not make a non-fact a fact.

Will defined, to decree, dictate or order. I know you follow the Robbs will theory, so how does a dead mans final decree, dictate or order get followed if he is dead? A final decree, order, or dictate is the very basis for every will ever written. So your saying the KG do not have to obey the final will of Rhaegar given to them because he died later? So Robbs will also holds no merit as Robb died. The KG decide that Rhaegars final order, dictate, decree, request or desire does not count because he died?

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

Your argument lacks both facts and evidence. I don't claim it's not true, but I do claim it lacks the required proof to be a fact. Which you don't seem to understand. You actually claim you don't need proof to be a fact. But the truth is you do need it. I think your confusing Obvious with Oblivious, the story you actually are refering to is an unproven theory, you know fanfic.

[yushkevsh]

That would not make literary sense at all. If he did plan to change the ending that he had in mind before he even wrote the first sentence, that would nullify all of the work that followed that sentence. GRRM is not unhappy that people were smart enough to read and understand, he has always encouraged people to keep reading. The number of people who know R + L = J are a very small percentage of readers, and those that just watch the screenplay are utterly without a clue.

I wonder if the people that only watch the series will have no real clue (or recollection) of anything to do with Lyanna and/or Rhaegar. To the readers there is a LOT of material that suggests this and clearly the belief is that this plot twist will have major implications. To viewers, perhaps not so much.

So I wonder if in the TV series things will be resolved (and/or revealed) much differently than in the books. The upside is that those that have read the books will be doubly suprised if they expect a different outcome. Not necessarily a complete 180, but perhaps a different approach on how Jon's true parents are revealed and how it effects the conclusion.

[Roadside Rose]

Rhaegar gave them an order (it seems, we don't know for sure, but GRRM suggests it in an SSM) to guard the tower. That does NOT explain why they stayed and fought as a unit. The king is dead, they know that, Rhaegar is dead, they know that (following orders of a dead man?), "Prince Viserys" is elsewhere with no kingsguard, they know that. So why are they there and ready to fight? They tell us, it is a VOW. Jaime tells us the VOW of the Kingsguard is to "protect and defend the king", there are other promises, but that is the vow. If prince Viserys does not merit to have even one of the Kingsguard with him, and the Lord Commander is present to make that call, what possible explanation can justify that action? Only one, the king is present and they are defending the king.

True.

This also makes me wonder, if Rhaegar died, and then Aerys died why were there no Kingsguard to protect Aegon or Viserys?

Because either Aerys first born or Rhaegar's firstborn had the next lawful right to the throne. But neither of them seem to be protected by Kingsguard, instead the Kingsguard were protecting Lyanna and her son (Jon, most likely). Even if Jon was Lyanna's son, he would not be next in line to the crown. Viserys and Aegon had a right to the crown more than he did.

And to those who say the KG was protecting the King's family....

There were three KG at the Battle at the Trident, alongside Rhaegar

Three KG protecting Lyanna & her son

And only one protecting Aerys, and that one was also the son of the King's Hand (who initially supported Aerys during the rebellion)

And no KG protecting Rhaella, Viserys, Daenerys, Elia, Aegon or Rhaenys.

Not a single child was protected by a KG, except Jon.

[Moët]

This is from the last thread and I do apologize, but I never saw anyone say it. yushkevsh asked about the reasons Ned would lie about Jon to his family, especially Cat.

Of course, the main reason is Jon's safety, but also because of R+L=J, anyone having the knowledge of Jon's true identity would be in danger as well. So he was protecting his entire family. Ned would rather have Cat's anger than her death.

Someone else in the thread pointed out quite brilliantly that if Littlefinger and Varys knew Jon's identity, they would undoubtedly try to use him as a pawn to their advantage.

yushkevsh also mentioned that Jon was a bastard, etc. which of course, many would disagree with due to the three KG remaining at the ToJ with Lyanna when everyone else in line to the throne, was dead, because they're with the legitimate King, baby Jon. They even refer to Robert as "the Usurper." This can only be true if Rhaegar and Lyanna were indeed married.

Sorry to jack the thread with this older point, I'm still catching up again. Apologies. :D

[Roadside Rose]

That would not make literary sense at all. If he did plan to change the ending that he had in mind before he even wrote the first sentence, that would nullify all of the work that followed that sentence. GRRM is not unhappy that people were smart enough to read and understand, he has always encouraged people to keep reading. The number of people who know R + L = J are a very small percentage of readers, and those that just watch the screenplay are utterly without a clue.

Agreed.

I think GRRM gave us too many clues to figure this out. I don't think he has spoiled the ending at all. Infact, I think he wanted the readers to figure it out. It would be boring if the author explicitly wrote 'And Rhaegar and Lyanna wed, then they had a son....". The fun part of this book has been figuring these out. Because people have different reading comprehensions. All won't necessarily jump to the same conclusions. And when GRRM wrote it, there weren't so many fan forums to dissect his work.

On the other hand, I think he gave us clues to this plot point (Jon's identity) because he had much more bigger plots to hide. And if we went on a wild goose chase behind these clues, we would not notice some of the bigger mysteries in the series (which could be unveiled in the end).

[Israel]

Well okay so Lyanna was kidnapped, and raped, Wylla is Jons mother, there was no marriage and Jon is not a king. That's going with what the books tell me. So your entire belief is fanfic. And unless you can give me a fact acknowledged by Martin then R=L=J is fanfic as well. You fact in text stating otherwise from the author or the books. Please continue with your fanfic. At least I use logic. You seem to think a tower in the middle of nowhere with a dying woman is a safe place and a good place for a baby. I say Starfall with a wet nurse was safer.

OMG ok Ceighton what are you saying ? u said it was a possibility , so yeah there are 49 threads on the subject and we all gleemed this from the books, I hope you are not impying that you think Jon is Ned's son now are you ?? No ? So what are you talking about then, why are you bashing? When it is confirmed and you are wrong please add an apology on to # 109. thanks

So this is the meat of it.

Rhaegars prophacy of there having to be three heads, 3 what , people? who share the same father ? could one or all be a bastard?

"Lewis Black moment" No u ****faces 3 farginnn Targaryen siblings!!!! as in all of House Targaryen.

So if he believed this and we can all say he does then he would have taken care of this issue with Lyanna , remember in ACOK in Danys chapter we learn that Rhaegar a. wasnt a random kidnapper and b. hes trying to fulfill a prophacy , so he has a plannnnnuh.

what does anyone think