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[BOOK SPOILERS] Nitpick without repercussion?


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The thing I always find interesting about this discussion of whether you can apply modern values to Westeros or not is that the argument is pretty much exclusively levied against Westerosi attitudes to sex. I've yet to see anyone call Ned a child abuser for forcing his 7 year old son to watch a man's head getting chopped off, but the moment we get to Tyrion and Sansa's wedding night, Tyrion is called a monster for...not backing out of the bedding ceremony soon enough?

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The thing I always find interesting about this discussion of whether you can apply modern values to Westeros or not is that the argument is pretty much exclusively levied against Westerosi attitudes to sex. I've yet to see anyone call Ned a child abuser for forcing his 7 year old son to watch a man's head getting chopped off, but the moment we get to Tyrion and Sansa's wedding night, Tyrion is called a monster for...not backing out of the bedding ceremony soon enough?

I think I've seen this a few times.

Certainly there's been a million posts about how Catelyn "abused" Jon Snow by being cold to him and giving him mean looks even though she did nothing wrong by Westerosi standards so it's not just about sex.

The ironic thing about any defence of Tyrion's actions with the "It's OK by Westerosi standards" is that he killed his father, so by those same standards he's the worst kind of scum and criminal, the lowest of the low.

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I think I've seen this a few times.

Certainly there's been a million posts about how Catelyn "abused" Jon Snow by being cold to him and giving him mean looks even though she did nothing wrong by Westerosi standards so it's not just about sex.

The ironic thing about any defence of Tyrion's actions with the "It's OK by Westerosi standards" is that he killed his father, so by those same standards he's the worst kind of scum and criminal, the lowest of the low.

I'd still say that Cat's treatment of Jon Snow is at least tangentially linked to sex, as it's the nature of the sex and who it's with that determines whether you're a bastard or a trueborn son/daughter. Though I admit it's tenuous.

To revise my comment to be more accurate, I think that one way or another, people only use that view when what they're presented with makes them uncomfortable. Beheading traitors is standard fantasy fare though it would obviously be frowned upon these days. But then we have arranged marriages to children, and otherwise decent people hating their husband's child by another woman, without being the typical evil stepmother. They're issues people don't see in more conventional fantasy and it's uncomfortable to read about so they just put up the whole "I going to judge the characters by modern standards even though there's no way they could ever know about these standards" front. But unless you're then rationalising and applying these to the things that don't make you uncomfortable i.e beheading traitors, you're being hypocritical.

I think there's a bit of a dilemma there but personally I don't see why people can't think both. I - as the reader still like Tyrion and see him as my favourite character even if I don't like many of his actions. But I'm also not going to blame characters for thinking he's a monster on account of his Kinslaying because by Westerosi standards he is. However when it comes to Sansa I would still say that by Westerosi standards he was rather exceptional in his actions.

So yeah that's how I see it. My initial reactions are based on my modern standards and emotions, but when I'm analysing a character I'm holding them up to their society's standards.

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Asoiaf does NOT exist in a cultural vacuum. The fact that it's loosely based on medieval Europe does not make it a definitive document of the morals of medieval Europe (I won't even start about the obvious fact that it's fantasy...a genre that can take many liberties vis a vis "realism".)

bottom line: It's written and read by modern people. Period.

Rape is rape, no need for contrived excuses about the morals of the (nonexistent) times.

I'm not saying it isn't rape. I'm saying that Tyrion telling Sansa he won't bed her until she asks for it is an exception to how most men in that culture would act in his place. It makes him stand out from the crowd. You can't judge him for wanting it when he didn't actually go through with it. It's condemning him for something he didn't actually do. He has plenty of other crimes without laying at his feet one he never actually committed.

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People during that time mistreated dwarfs, yet people resent Tywin for mistreating the dwarf Tyrion.

People does not resent Tywin because of that, they resent him because Tyrion was his child and he was suppose to accept and love him..

and I wonder, how the fuck did you suddenly get into the topic of Tywin? We were talking about rape.. and then suddenly.. wow, this thread had a whole lot of topic now.. Oh, about the case of Tyrion.. again, since this thread looks like it's gonna go to people judging his crimes.. Murdering Shae and Tywin is wrong.. and since people here already explained why murdering Shae is wrong, I also have my say why murdering Tywin is wrong.. He was his father and though he hated him, he still gave him the benefits of being his child.. I know children who were mistreated emotionally and physically by their parents, worse than what Tywin did to Tyrion, but never had the desire to kill their parents..Let's face it. The whole thing happened because Tyrion hates Tywin..

Tywin deserves to die for all the evil things that he did but not in Tyrion's hand...

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I think I've seen this a few times.

Certainly there's been a million posts about how Catelyn "abused" Jon Snow by being cold to him and giving him mean looks even though she did nothing wrong by Westerosi standards so it's not just about sex.

The ironic thing about any defence of Tyrion's actions with the "It's OK by Westerosi standards" is that he killed his father, so by those same standards he's the worst kind of scum and criminal, the lowest of the low.

I didn't depend Tyrion on that.. and it actually disgust me when people say Tyrion killing Tywin is ok...

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My initial reactions are based on my modern standards and emotions, but when I'm analysing a character I'm holding them up to their society's standards.

same here...

I don't have any real stake in this convo or have anything, for the record, just pointin' that out~. 'Cause I've seen that exact statement crop up about the exact same thing here (Tyrion & Sansa's marriage) a couple times and it always bugs me a little bit. In my eyes it's the grayness and flaws of the characters that make them truly interesting, so I've never understood the urge to defend or justify some of their more morally questionable actions.

I depend Tyrion by Westerosi standard and I too loves to see the grayness and flaws of the character that's why I don't depend all his other crimes because that what makes him interesting, same with Jaime, Theon, and all the others... now that I think about it, Jon is probably my only favorite character who hasn't done anything wrong which makes him boring..

Also, rationalizing a person's actions does not mean it was justified/acceptable nor does it makes the action less horrible..

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Back to the topic of this thread, another nitpick:

Is it just me or they're trying to make Dany a Mary Sue?

She's immune to fire, she's now the dragon.. They didn't show her being arrogant about getting the throne.. They didn't keep her whole lines about killing all the people who wear tokar except for those who are under twelve...

Way to go for making another cliche character...

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