[Book Spoilers] Jaime/Brienne

[NickyM]

I missed part of the Jaime/Brienne scene from the book about her being a maid, yet in the book it didn't make sense to me that Hoat and his men didn't rape her since they planned on killing her. Now I'm afraid the when she asks why he came back it will be because she a maid of Tarth and he only rescues maidens or some such wit, which won't be bad just not as good. I do believe that jaime loves her now and doesn't know it because if he thought of her as an equal, he would have stolen a sword for either himself and/or her before jumping into the pit but he was in pure rescue damsel in distress mode and lept even after he looked. I know he's rash and impulsive but his first instinct should have been "even the odds", but instead they were protect the girl. I was expecting him to demand a sword and when refused jump in half cocked. But I guess the heart wants what the heart wants.

[six]

I think they need a reason for the split between Jaime and Cersei. There is no kettleback and we nearly forget Lancel so perhaps the show want to build a sort of triangle

This just reminds me of how whitewashed Cersei is. I doubt there will be a triangle, I think what will drive them apart is that Jaime changed so he won't be doing everything Cersei asks anymore, and that will piss her off/disappoint her. But they will probably make Cersei the victim in their split too, because in the show she's a misunderstood woobie.

[DrRobotnik]

Turning the crossbow into a pea-shooter ruins its surprise-value. So the whole scene falls flat.

[BenPlumm]

I thought the scene was really great. I also very much enjoyed the scene between Jaime and Qyburn.

[Katydid]

This just reminds me of how whitewashed Cersei is. I doubt there will be a triangle, I think what will drive them apart is that Jaime changed so he won't be doing everything Cersei asks anymore, and that will piss her off/disappoint her. But they will probably make Cersei the victim in their split too, because in the show she's a misunderstood woobie.

I don't believe a triangle would be necessary either (especially since the three of them are hardly in the same place/same time for more than a day or so.) Jaime's pulling away from Cersei, and her pushing him away, has more to do with the change in him. She begins to piss him off long before he finds out about all the others she's been fucking, and there's still the chance for her to call him a "great golden fool" and state how often she's lied to him in the past. Though Tyrion can still throw Lancel at him, too, which will wipe the last of the stars out of Jaime's eyes.

What will be more difficult, while Jaime and Brienne are apart, is illustrating to the audience just how much and often they think of one another, and the significance of the change in their relationship is to both of them.

[Elba the Intoner]

I was so looking forward to this scene but I thought it was slightly underwhelming. I still enjoyed it but it felt so rushed and I'm disappointed some of the best lines from the book were omitted ("I dreamed of you", "I only rescue maidens")

Did they really need to focus so much on Theon with the gratuitous nudity and torture? I could have done with less of that and more of Jaime and Brienne. The two of them and Dany were the best part of an otherwise lackluster episode. Hard to believe GRRM wrote it.

I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said here. You've just summed up my thoughts on both the Jame Brienne scene and the Theon shit.

Yeah - most of my reaction has already been posted. Disappointed in it -- too short -- and they left out one of my favorite lines in the book...When Locke said "The bitch stays here" was the perfect time for Jaime to say, "Brienne. Her name is Brienne." I love that line. :crying:

We needed much, much less Theon (in fact I'd say we need no more of Theon) -- and we need much, much more of Jaime and Brienne. Hated that they left out the dream bit. Don't know why but I didn't remember the "I only rescue maidens" line, but it sounds great. I swear, I just flew through those books too fast....

I love that line too and I don't get why they did not play up the whole Kingslayer-Wench exchanges more so that when they start to call each other by their names you can really see how their thoughts and feelings have come around. We did get Brienne coming round from Kingslayer to Ser Jaime, but I don't understand why the Wench to Brienne part was left out. I suppose it could still happen but since Jaime hasn't called Brienne "wench" once this whole season I doubt it.

[six]

I don't believe a triangle would be necessary either (especially since the three of them are hardly in the same place/same time for more than a day or so.) Jaime's pulling away from Cersei, and her pushing him away, has more to do with the change in him. She begins to piss him off long before he finds out about all the others she's been fucking, and there's still the chance for her to call him a "great golden fool" and state how often she's lied to him in the past. Though Tyrion can still throw Lancel at him, too, which will wipe the last of the stars out of Jaime's eyes.

What will be more difficult, while Jaime and Brienne are apart, is illustrating to the audience just how much and often they think of one another, and the significance of the change in their relationship is to both of them.

BiB: that's why they should keep them together for longer imo, and I hope they do. The bond they have and the way they think of each other is impossible to convey on a tv show, so I think it would just be easier for Brienne to stick to KL for season 4. Which would fit the timeline in the book IIRC, as she's in KL for the second half of of SoS, only we don't see her as much. Characters thinking of each other when they're away doesn't come across well in the show; Arya and Jon think about each other all the time and miss each other like crazy in the books, in the show it's never even mentioned. Same for the way Sansa keeps thinking about Sandor.

As for the triangle, it's not that I don't think it's necessary- personally I probably wouldn't mind, but realistically speaking I don't see them going down that path in the traditional sense i.e. not like Twilight. If there was any triangle, it would be about where do Jaime's loyalties lie rather than who he's love with. They've already established that Jaime's mindset atm is that if Brienne falls, he falls and he's ready to risk his life for her, sod everything else. They're also both committed to give Arya and Sansa back, which is against what his family want. And this changes every dynamic quite a bit, with Cersei and also all the Lannisters.

[Danelle]

I was so looking forward to this scene but I thought it was slightly underwhelming. I still enjoyed it but it felt so rushed and I'm disappointed some of the best lines from the book were omitted ("I dreamed of you", "I only rescue maidens")

Did they really need to focus so much on Theon with the gratuitous nudity and torture? I could have done with less of that and more of Jaime and Brienne. The two of them and Dany were the best part of an otherwise lackluster episode. Hard to believe GRRM wrote it.

Since the title was the Bear and the Maiden Fair and the bear pit scene one of my favourite moments in the books, I too had great expectations. In the books it is written so wonderfully. Jaime and Brienne go through a lot, they form a weird bond, they are separated, Jaime dreams of her and returns to rescue her. In the TV series it seemed so rushed. As if they were in a hurry. Jaime Lannister is responsible for the most noble and the most disgusting acts in the series and yet they decided to emphasize Theon's torture.

I can understand why certain changes had to happen. Dreams and visions in the tv series would be too obvious, like Dany watching Aerys ordering Rossart to burn the city or the blue rose in the wall. Theon appeared in GOT, became a POV in COK, he is mentioned in the following books and all of a sudden he appears as Reek in DWD. By the time Reek is introduced, Ramsay has ruined him and thankfully the tortures are implied or mentioned in flashbacks. If Theon suddenly dissapeared only to repemerge in the sixth or seventh season as Reek, then the audience wouldn't remember who this guy is. So, the audience had to find out about Ramsay's depravity but this is too much. It is a shame really, because this scene had so much potential...

[Chickren]

In ASOS Brienne doesn't leave KL until right before Jaime releases Tyrion. So no reason to think she won't be in KL up to that point in Season 4. She describes being able to hear the Oberyn/Mountain duel from her cell.

So D&D wrote the Bear Pit scene. Who wrote the goodbye scene?

[Luckwren]

I liked what we got in the bear pit, espeically when the bear actually started to attack Brienne. I was just thinking "if that's a stunt person they have more balls than I will ever have". then I realized it was probably a dummy or something. Still great though.

That stunt person would be Doug Seus. Check on youtube for any of his videos with Bart the Bear, Little Bart or Honey Bump. Balls of steel.

[MsLibby]

I liked the bear scene but I did miss a few of the lines.

In one aspect I felt it was an improvement. I found Brienne's "rescue" in the books a bit passive. It was great that Jaime jumped in (I was cheering him on), but he didn't "rescue her" as much as put himself between her and the bear, forcing his tail to kill the animal and rescue him. Selfless and noble to be sure! This time around he used his wits and his physicality to save Brienne. Very different and I liked it.

I also liked seeing him use his stumpy arm for something other than a necklace too. He had to hold on with the stump in order to reach for Brienne's hand. Nice work.

And Goldenhand is born!!! I laughed when Locke told him to get a gold hand.

[NickyM]

Ok. Now I'm going to go with the positives for what happened in the show.

In the first scene where Brienne and Jaime are talking about the promise. I loved what you truly felt Jaime didn't have the heart to say.

When she asked, "With Locke?" you could see that he didn't want to confirm that, instead he changed the subject almost like he wanted her to come up with a plan of her own or have him agree to pay the ransom, as he already ran through a thousand ideas and came up empty.

Then when she said goodbye to him, it seemed like he choked on the thought of saying goodbye to her.

---

Next when Jaime is talking to Qyburn, I liked that he's more "open" (I hope is the right word) about his saving King's Landing. He's not bragging but answering a question. He remembers the number of the people he saved not the ones he's killed because the people he saved are more important to him. Yet the killing of people is where he usually got most of his honor on the battle field, but saving all those people by killing the one man, made him more of a Pirarah then all the good he ever did. Yet he's owning it more and I like it.

Then while speaking of all the people he saved, he goes directly into questining about Brienne's safety.

The look on Jaime's face when he reasilzes that the lie he told to save Brienne has come around to condemming her.

Hoat.. Don't like him much but much like the boy torturing theon. Money can only buy so much happiness, but cutting off a arogant papa's boy with poor little rich boy complex, throwing a woman in a pit that lets face it could have kicked his butt without a sword. Priceless.

I liked the bear staying alive. That bear was so mad at them pounding on the wall-cuddly. Jaime trying to get up the wall before he had a matching stump where his foot should be. That was intense cool

Brienne going up first and then immedately reaching back down for jaime. Oh and that look she gave him as they were walking out. You know she was itching to ask him what the hell. -something to look forward too.

Now for those that think they should have shoved him into the pit. How honorable is that REALLY when they have decided to go their separate ways. Is that beneth Brienne, and Jaime is trying to be better. Now if weapons were drawn, then sure shove away but in that situation, they were the bigger people and that is why many people prefer grey characters after. The old Jaime wouldn't have though twice, this new jaime. well, you can't eat your cake and have it too.

[GoldenFleece]

Did anyone while watching that scene think "Anchorman" ? Or is it just me?

[Katydid]

So D&D wrote the Bear Pit scene. Who wrote the goodbye scene?

I hope we get confirmation on this, but until we do or don't, I'm going to assume that was GRRM. Because it was a gorgeous scene, and very much in character with Book!Brienne and Jaime. All she wants is her oath to Catelyn upheld; it lies in Jaime's power at that point, and that is her only request. And his face when she calls him Ser Jaime - - NCW continues to knock it out of the park.

[PhoenixFlame]

From a writing standpoint, I could see them using the "rescue maidens" line next episode. The way the scene is conceived in the show, Jaime's freaking out over Brienne and suddenly he's in a staredown with Locke. It would have seemed a bit too throwaway if he were to crawl out of the pit and go "did anyone rape you?" In the book it's really cute and funny because it's his slightly jerkass way of showing he cares. I think it could pop up next episode.

[Chickren]

I hope we get confirmation on this, but until we do or don't, I'm going to assume that was GRRM. Because it was a gorgeous scene, and very much in character with Book!Brienne and Jaime. All she wants is her oath to Catelyn upheld; it lies in Jaime's power at that point, and that is her only request. And his face when she calls him Ser Jaime - - NCW continues to knock it out of the park.

I want to assume the same. And absolutely agree, that scene was book!Brienne from beginning to end. And I loved it. These two continually knock it out of the park while their chemistry burns said park to the ground.

I missed the line, but on review think the maiden thing wouldn't have worked with the life-or-death tension that continues up until they walk away. Line I do think would've improved the Pit scene? "You want her? Go get her."

[Currawong]

I want to assume the same. And absolutely agree, that scene was book!Brienne from beginning to end. And I loved it. These two continually knock it out of the park while their chemistry burns said park to the ground.

I missed the line, but on review think the maiden thing wouldn't have worked with the life-or-death tension that continues up until they walk away. Line I do think would've improved the Pit scene? "You want her? Go get her."

Agreed. I like the way the two of them walk out in silence, except for Jaime's 'sorry about the sapphires' remark to Locke. And that look on Brienne's face as she follows Jaime ... I do hope we get one tiny scene of them next episode.

I am wondering whether we will meet up with Locke much later in Season 4 or even 5. I've always thought that the writers will condense some of Brienne's quest in AFFC, but what if they adjust her storyline so she meets up with Locke on the road instead of Shagwell. Book Brienne thinks of Jaime and even says something like 'and that's for Jaime' when she kills Shagwell, so it would be wonderfully satisfying to have her encounter Locke, fight him and say the same thing as she kills him. Much better than just having Jaime shove Locke into the bearpit :D.

[Lady Octarina]

As nearly everyone else, I was disappointed Jaime didn't dream of her and said that perfect line, but the show is doing such a good job of making everybody ship them that I can't find any reason to complain. :wub:

Also, it seems to me that it's more heroic and adorable that the idea of what they were going to do with her bothered Jaime so much he had to go back and rescue her, instead of being urged to do that out of the guilt his ghosts had caused.

[Rabid Grunt]

Locke is SO much better than Hoat, IMO. Some of his lines were pure gold. (Although, being said, I cant wait to see his head on a pike).

[Katydid]

Also, it seems to me that it's more heroic and adorable that the idea of what they were going to do with her bothered Jaime so much he had to go back and rescue her, instead of being urged to do that out of the guilt his ghosts had caused.

　

That did work better than I hoped for, though I still wish the dream had been included. It's such a pivotal moment for Jaime, as we understand that he is subconsciously attracted to Brienne as a woman (as well as in other ways), and when the people he believes he loves the most abandon him (Cersei, Tywin), Brienne's light continues to burn for him.

　

That said, the gold/sapphires didn't work in B&W's version quite as well, since Locke is shown repeatedly to be unimpressed by bribes of gold/sapphires.　 It felt a little clumsy to have Qybern tell Jaime that Locke demanded sapphires and got pissy when only 300 gold dragons were offered (which is apparently a significant amount of $$), then to have Locke tell Jaime "cutting off your hand was more fun for me than gold, watching her get eaten by a bear is more fun for me than all her sapphires, so fuck off" (or something of the sort.)

　

If that was all that mattered, why would he have even bothered to ransom Brienne in the first place?　 Eh...that's probably something for the "nitpick" thread. B)