Young Nan Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 What I thought was wierd about the whole scene Is that Joffrey seemed smart. He noticed (correctly) that he was being excluded from the council meetings. He brought up some good points about Dany and the dragons, which Tywin immediately (and wrongfully) dismissed. Joffrey actually CARED about things going on in the realm, which was totally out of character. My husband (unsullied) commented that Joff is getting smarter and actually knows better than Tywin in this scene. When does Joff ever know more than Tywin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mother of Mini Dragons Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 I loved this scene! I've been waiting to see these two together all season long. It was lovely from the moment he came in and Joffrey was trying to establish his authority by sitting in the throne to Tywin slowly walking up the steps to tower over Joffrey and then when he was done, he walked away with a little smirk on his face. Love it!I think Tywin not taking the dragons seriously is in keeping with his character as he is a no nonsense kind of person who would not be easy to persuade into believing the fantastical. Same as Tyrion, until he learns otherwise.ETA: I don't think it's so much that Joffrey actually cares about the realm, but Joffrey wants to be in control and he has enough sense to realize he's being challenged on his power by his grandfather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbuehner Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Lets also keep in mind that just because Tywin tells Joffrey something doesn't make it so. He may well be taking the Dany situation more seriously than he cares to let on. If Joffrey is interested in dragons the last thing Tywin wants to do is tell him they're talking about dragons in meetings he doesn't want Joffrey attending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Nan Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Lets also keep in mind that just because Tywin tells Joffrey something doesn't make it so. He may well be taking the Dany situation more seriously than he cares to let on. If Joffrey is interested in dragons the last thing Tywin wants to do is tell him they're talking about dragons in meetings he doesn't want Joffrey attending.If the show were in any way subtle, I would agree. Unfortunately, the show is geared towards viewers with the intelligence of a turnip, and they blatantly beat us over the head with every "clue". See: every little finger scene this season. So I don't think the show would have Tywin saying one thing, and smartly doing another. Thats the kind of thing he does in the books, not the show. In the show, he lets literate, highborn girls who pose as servants sit in on his confidential war councils and just finds it amusing. Not that I didn't enjoy those scenes, just saying- show Tywin isn't book Tywin, the show isn't that smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dragon King Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Absolutely awesome scene. IMO Tywin was making a very subtle threat that could have been taken a different way, quite skillfull. Notice that when Joffrey demands a report on the small council Tywin just extends an offer for him to attend, he doesn't concede to Joffrey's demand. Tywin also climbs the stairs, uninvited, and when he reaches the top Joffrey actually moves himself back slightly. So, Tywin is then looking down on Joffrey and ends with saying "you will be consulted on important matters...whenever necessary", and of course it's Tywin who will determine what is necessary and what isn't, and then Tywin leaves of his own accord, he doesn't wait for Joffrey to dismiss him. Tywin was letting Joffrey know, in a subtle and diplomatic fashion, exactly who the boss is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qixoticneurotic Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Its a teaching moment. joffrey calls in the hand to dress him down. hes attempting to utilize the power he has as king but hes unfamiliar with it. hes not all that angry. he just knows he should be. tywin then shows him how to intimidate someone without getting angry. its a setup to show joff making a move later to undermine tywin instead of taking the lesson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShigellaSand Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 The scene was perfectly scripted and acted, and the camerawork amazing. Just the way Joffrey felt the need to sit on the freaking throne to remind Tywin that he's the king - and then he cowers when his grandfather looms over him... Definitely up there with scenes you remember. And as others have said, Joffrey actually had a good point, only to be dismissed by Tywin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janicia Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 What I thought was wierd about the whole scene Is that Joffrey seemed smart. Way back in season 1, Joffrey suggested to Cersei that the kingdom should have a standing national army rather than depend on regional lords to muster armies of dubious loyalty to the crown. Earlier in season 3, we saw his keen interest in Targaryan history. We've also seen him handle himself well as a king in a few public situations - most notably during his betrothal to Margery, but he also gave a decent speech and thwarted all of the adults in chopping off Ned's head. Joffrey is mercurial and sadistic, but he has been the crown prince his entire life and he does possess intelligence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Knight Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 was it just me or Joffrey shaked a bit in that scene? nice touch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 The scene was perfectly scripted and acted, and the camerawork amazing. Just the way Joffrey felt the need to sit on the freaking throne to remind Tywin that he's the king - and then he cowers when his grandfather looms over him... Definitely up there with scenes you remember. And as others have said, Joffrey actually had a good point, only to be dismissed by Tywin.And the sound editing as well. Holy cow, did Tywin's steps resonating in the throne chamber sound scary! No background music, just the steps and torches burning. Well done indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojzelote Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 It's just foreshadowing. (Lately I've been seeing foreshadowing in every shadow.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Nan Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 Way back in season 1, Joffrey suggested to Cersei that the kingdom should have a standing national army rather than depend on regional lords to muster armies of dubious loyalty to the crown. Earlier in season 3, we saw his keen interest in Targaryan history. We've also seen him handle himself well as a king in a few public situations - most notably during his betrothal to Margery, but he also gave a decent speech and thwarted all of the adults in chopping off Ned's head. Joffrey is mercurial and sadistic, but he has been the crown prince his entire life and he does possess intelligence.I guess this is a case of show Joff vs. book Joff. None of those scenes were in the book; due to the books I view him as an absolute moron. Littlefinger even talked about it, saying normally you had to lead a horse to the water, but in Joffrey's case you also had to splash the water around a bit for him to catch on. Just wierds me out to see Joff actually 1. caring about council meetings and 2. being right about something, where tywin was wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Luke. Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 I'm starting to really believe this theory. Tywin probably did know about Joff's poisoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkAndFullOfTurnips Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 What I thought was wierd about the whole scene Is that Joffrey seemed smart. He noticed (correctly) that he was being excluded from the council meetings. He brought up some good points about Dany and the dragons, which Tywin immediately (and wrongfully) dismissed. Joffrey actually CARED about things going on in the realm, which was totally out of character. My husband (unsullied) commented that Joff is getting smarter and actually knows better than Tywin in this scene. When does Joff ever know more than Tywin.Joffrey isn't quite so stupid on the show, which in my opinion is a good thing. But he doesn't necessarily care about the realm at all, he's just aware that dragons pose a threat to him as King. He'd do anything to maintain it, so worrying about a Targeryan with 3 dragons is in character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lojzelote Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 I guess this is a case of show Joff vs. book Joff. None of those scenes were in the book; due to the books I view him as an absolute moron. Littlefinger even talked about it, saying normally you had to lead a horse to the water, but in Joffrey's case you also had to splash the water around a bit for him to catch on. Just wierds me out to see Joff actually 1. caring about council meetings and 2. being right about something, where tywin was wrong.Margaery is probably rubbing off him. :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneToilet Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 I love any scene with Tywin in it. Charles Dance plays the role perfectly.Would have liked Joffrey to have been a little more ignorant of how much his grandfather is not to be fucked with, and maybe had that established more clearly in the scene. The bit with the stairs was a good touch though.I think he LOOKS the part, and i dont know whether it was his call or the director's, but did you notice he SMILED when he turned his back on Joffrey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneToilet Posted May 13, 2013 Share Posted May 13, 2013 I guess this is a case of show Joff vs. book Joff. None of those scenes were in the book; due to the books I view him as an absolute moron. Littlefinger even talked about it, saying normally you had to lead a horse to the water, but in Joffrey's case you also had to splash the water around a bit for him to catch on. Just wierds me out to see Joff actually 1. caring about council meetings and 2. being right about something, where tywin was wrong.I think the point was that he didnt actually care about the meetings, he was just making a show of it. When tywin reminded him he was welcome to attend, joffrey changed the subject. And why do we assume tywin was wrong? Dany is a world away and at last report her dragons were tiny. He has more pressing issues to deal with, and what can he really hope to do anyway? I think the scene is just trying to establish some acrimony between joffrey and tywin leading up to joff's little outburst about traitors and aerys, and had nothing to do with joffrey getting smarter or tywin being wrong. Non readers, of course, wouldnt be able to see that before that scene takes place, but as readers we know better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zman1863 Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 Joffrey is a few years older on the show than he is in the books. One would expect him to be a bit more intellectually formidable being older than his counterpart. The age difference also allows for the show version to be more assertive and they can make him do more things to remind us how much of a villain he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarl the climber Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 I do not know if Tywin played a part in the PW. My impression is that he suspected that there would be an attempt on Joffs life and he did nothing to stop it.In the long run Joff could remove or assasinate Tywin, he is after all the King. Anyone who can not get what they want from Tywin are going to try and get around him by going to Joffrey, like the informant he refused to name who told him about Danerys and her dragons. There really is not much that the Lannisters can do about her at this point beyond sending an assasin. Tywin is probaly correct to be more concerned with the immedeate problem hes facing with half of Westeros in rebellion. If Varys is the informant he might be trying to get Joff to send an assasin so that it will provoke Dany into heading West to take up her claim which is what he and Illryio wanted in the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradosi Posted May 14, 2013 Share Posted May 14, 2013 Tywin and Tyrion were the only ones who didn't put up with Joffrey's bullshit, even as King.Like father like son, even if Tywin hates to admit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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