[Book spoilers]: GoT producer expects at least 7 seasons

[gmk]

I've said before in this thread that it makes sense to bring most of the Dornish contingent to King's Landing for the Purple Wedding, so AFFC Dorne scheming could be moved up to coincide with the Purple wedding and its immediate aftermath. If Cersei tried to have Myrcella crowned it would parallel nicely with Yara's claim (and failure at the Kingsmoot) which would also contrast and parallel nicely with Dany's efforts to be seen and accepted as a legitimate leader and the Catch-22 situation that a marriage will put her in.

Then if Quentyn and Arianne leave KL in Disgrace after their attempt to crown Myrcella (with cersei's accompaniment) is foiled every bit as easily as it is foiled in a single chapter in AFFC, you could actually have them be secretly directed to Aegon and Dany from the get go. This would make sense if Oberyn/Doran (might as well combine the character if we move everything to KL) tells his children that that back up plan is a full alliance with the two dragons. So when Oberyn is killed in the trial, they flee King's Landing for Pentos. Quentyn, Arianne and Tyrion then join with Connington and fAegon until Tyrion fucks up the plan by convincing fAegon to attack Westeros (which always seemed to me to be a self-serving plan designed to get Tyrion back to his homeland, which went pear-shaped when he was captured instead). Arianne stays with fAegon and Quentyn continues with the Dany plan after he meets Jorah Mormont.

Why make such a big change? Because Dorne/Arianne is going to wind up allying with fAegon anyway and this more economically gets them in-bed together in on screen action. Scenes discussing plans to conspire between two factions never before seen on the show are very passive, a more active role in the two participating together will be much more effective at introducing both factions and clearly showing why they are allied together.

All this is a huge departure, but I feel like how the Kingsmoot and Dornish Conspiracy will be handled will be huge departures anyway.

I agree that they should show some of the AFFC Dorne story in S4, but I don't think you need to change it that much to make it work.

What I would do is have Arianne come to KL with Oberyn. And cut Ellaria. This introduces us to Arianne and gives Oberyn someone to do Martell exposition with (vengeance for Elia, plans to crown Myrcella, complain about Doran's caution, have Arianne complain about the marriages Doran has tried to arrange for her, set up the mystery of where Quentyn is). Essentially, you move some of the exposition from Dorne AFFC chapters into conversations between Oberyn and Arianne, or between them and others -- for example, Cersei or Margaery could inquire about Arianne's marriage prospects and that's how we learn about Doran's half hearted attempts to find her a husband. It also gives you a reason to explain Dornish inheritance directly, since Arianne is the heir.

Then, let's assume Oberyn dies in E7. Arianne flees back to Dorne. That gives us a few episodes to finish off the AFFC Dorne plot in S4. Myrcella is crowned and then disfigured in E9, paralleling Tywin's death and Jamie's parting with Tyrion -- so this sort of becomes the "Lannister downfall" episode. Then in E10, we get the "Fire and blood" reveal with Doran, which would work great in a finale and could parallel Tyrion and Victarion all heading to see Dany at season's end.

Then I would introduce Quentyn in S5 but cut his travelogue before he gets to Meereen. Just introduce him when he meets Dany or shortly before. Then he can die towards the end of S5.

[JonDunn]

Ellaria isn't cut though, there are casting reports for her.

I was kind of surprised about that honestly, I thought that would have been an easy cut for them, but I guess she's a minor enough character to bring on.

[go joff go]

Thats been the weird thing about the show, by this point I actually expected a lot more characters to get cut then actually have been cut. Maybe next year is the year we see the ax but I'm not sure.

[Cas Stark]

It seems like, but then maybe this is my bias, that going forward there are more opportunities for cuts. They could cut the whole Quentyn storyline. A lot of the POV characters are unnecessary for the show from the Martell standpoing, they can just have Arianne instead of Arianne and Oakheart and Hotah.

It depends on what Victarion and Euron will do in the future outline whether they both get cast or condensed I guess.

I always thought the last two books would be a lot easier for the show to do because not that much really happens. But, that is bad for GRRM if he things they're getting 2 seasons out of each book.

[go joff go]

No doubt, Quentyn is toast. At least one of the Greyjoy brothers is gone and possibly two. One of the biggest problems with the show for most viewers is the number of storylines, locations, and characters. Frog is not going to be making his way through Essos in season 5 take that to the bank.

To me the issue is less the number of characters and more the number of storyline. What the show really needs is creative ways to always have a couple of character in the book who are separate be together. That means Arya going to the dreadfort with Victarion, Victarion leaving and say picking up both Tyrion and Arya on the way to Essos, Gendry being captured by LF while picking up leaving with SAnsa etc,

[DaveSumm]

I used to be doubtful but lately I've come to the realization that one season is the only real way to handle the majority of the Book4/Book5 plot. There are NOT two seasonal arcs for ANY character in those books. Some barely have one arc.

Yea, this is basically my exact train of thought over the last few weeks. What with Season 3 going a lot further through aSoS than I expected, and all the quotes from D&D about how they don't want the show to overstay its welcome. I used to advocate dragging it out much more, but if I'm honest that's mainly because I don't want them to catch up rather than because I think the series would be better for it. And now that I'm thinking along these lines, it makes me realise how great Season 4 & 5 would be if we get to the upcoming Winds battles by the end of Season 5.

None of us can be sure how important it will be that everything stays synchronised, so let's say for arguments sake that it doesn't matter at all. If a character hasn't got anything of aSoS left, then get cracking on aFfC/aDwD material.

Bran/Jojen/Meera/Hodor: I think it's very likely that Bran will be fully weirwooded by the end of Season 4. I would hazard a guess that Isaac Hempstead-Wright won't appear in Season 5, or maybe the rest of the series depending on what GRRM has planned for Bran.

Jon/Sam/Stannis/The Wall: Plenty of aSoS left here, so end Season 4 with him winning the battle against the Wildlings, getting offered Winterfell but then being voted Lord Commander. Then use the whole of aDwD for Season 5; the repatriation of the Wildlings, his stabbing, possibly his involvement in the upcoming battle of Winterfell if he has any. It's hard to say whether or not Oldtown is important enough to keep in the show, I suspect they may not want to add another plot thread and another location when the alternative is far cheaper and easier - keep him at Castle Black, maybe taking over from Aemon as maester.

Kings Landing: Again, plenty of aSoS left for this. The only plots I would maybe advance are Brienne's (I liked Werthead's idea of her taking Sansa to the Vale, then encountering Lady Stoneheart at the end of Season 4), but if we were really rushing things along you could even pull Jaime out of Kings Landing early, possibly replacing him with Varys for letting Tyrion free, and get him to Stoneheart for his trial at the end of Season 4. It is a bit extreme that though, probably better to set up his separation from Cersei at the beginning of Season 5, then have him deal with Edmure and the Blackfish (they did make a point of mentioning him in the Season 3 finale so I guess that'll be important), then Brienne can pull him out and end Season 5 with his trial (or whatever it is that happens to Jaime).

Roose/Ramsay/Reek/Yara: Everything's in place here already, I say get cracking to Winterfell and end Season 4 with the fake Arya marriage. I'm not really sure where they're headed with Yara, one possibility is that they replace the remaining Ironborn in Moat Cailin with Yara's men. So Theon would be asked to treat with her, then all her men would get slaughtered, then Yara just stays with Theon and we're back on track for the battle of Winterfell. However they do it, I think there's plenty of material in aDwD to fill both Season 4 & 5 for this particular plot. So Season 5 would start at Winterfell, with Theon becoming an unwilling confidant to Jeyne Poole, then Mance arrives, then the battle of Winterfell.

The only plot this ties into at the moment is Jon and The Wall, but I don't see why Ramsay can't goad him gradually throughout Season 5, with Jon wrestling with what to do. Then he snaps near the end but gets stabbed.

Arya: You could easily get through everything in Season 4 here, though I doubt they'll go quite that far. I would guess they'll end Season 4 with her being blinded, then Season 5 will be the aDwD chapters and 'Izembaro', whatever/whoever/wherever that is. Also they have a great chance here to catch a trick that GRRM missed; I always thought it was a shame that Arya and fake-Arya's story weren't in the same book. One girl desperately trying to shed the identity of Arya Stark, the other desperately trying to become Arya Stark. An obvious parallel scene to be had there.

Dany: There's no way they can end Season 4 with her taking Meereen, her plot would basically be exactly the same as Season 3. Ideally I would go as far as her riding off on Drogon, but there's an issue there because Tyrion will still be in Kings Landing. I guess you could go as far as the man depositing his child's bones in the court, but even then, what is there in Season 4 that we haven't seen already from Dany?

Season 5 she absolutely has to leave. Battle for Meereen done, Tyrion on board as special-dragon-advisor, head for Westeros. Perhaps with the caption "I know we've had a lot of these scenes where Dany's got an army and looks very prepared to invade Westeros, but we really mean it this time".

I'm personally nowhere near as confident that we'll get any Iron Islands or Dorne story lines as some people seem to be. D&D have said repeatedly that this is as expansive as they're going to get, and I really can't see any other way of interpreting this. Maybe Arianne could travel to Kings Landing with Oberyn, then go on to replace the function of the other Sand Snake (whose name escapes me) who got sent to Kings Landing at the end of aDwD to spy on proceedings. I love Doran, but I can't see them bothering to bring him to Kings Landing and I can't see them introducing a whole new location (Dorne).

So basically, I think some characters will get all the way through Books 4 & 5 in Season 4, and those that don't will do so in Season 5 along with the opening battles from Winds. Which leaves Season 6 as everything post-battles from Winds (I sincerely hope Winds has a decent climax, it desperately needs one) and then either one or two seasons for A Dream Of Spring. I doubt anyone has a clue whether it'll be 7 or 8 yet, I would guess 8.

[lokisnow]

regarding Yara, does anyone else suspect that she may take the role of fArya from the books?

Meaning Ramsey/Roose capture her after Theon persuades them to yield, and they force her to marry Ramsey to try for a claim on the Iron Islands?

[Cas Stark]

regarding Yara, does anyone else suspect that she may take the role of fArya from the books?

Meaning Ramsey/Roose capture her after Theon persuades them to yield, and they force her to marry Ramsey to try for a claim on the Iron Islands?

LOL, is there anyone that hasn't been put forward as fake Arya? I don't see how that would work, not only would Yara cut his balls off or die trying it wouldn't make sense for the whole Stannis/Winterfell future storyline.

I think fake Arya will be Jeyne Poole just like in the books because I can't see how they can cut the wedding storyline too much hinges around the Winterfell location.

[DaveSumm]

I wouldn't have thought so, it's Winterfell they're after and only a Stark gets them that. The Iron Islands aren't really worth the bother, plus the Ironborn wouldn't just follow someone because of a claim.

But I haven't really seen any explanation of Yara that explains her scene in Mhysa, so who knows.

[Werthead]

You can make the argument that the Greyjoys and Martells are important to the story, but their importance only rests in the books. When you consider that AFFC and ADwD will be done in one season, that's ten episodes, you have to realize that there is no way around it. They are going to change the story. Victarion is necessary in Dany's return to Westeros? Please, that can be changed. The Martells' importance? Quentyn freeing the dragons? Please, that can be changed. It is so easy to change the story to suit the needs of the tv format.

Everyone's importance only rests in the books. They could have deleted the Tyrells or Theon and cut those entire storylines out and streamlined the entire thing quite a lot, but didn't. The Greyjoys and Martells are part of the tapestry of the story and they and their stories will be in the TV show, probably changed or given less screentime as others already have. But removed altogether? No. Otherwise this will cease to be an adaptation of the books altogether. I've said they will certainly be looser and less rigid in adapting things post-ASoS, but not to the extent of removing entire families and factions (and especially ones they've already started foreshadowing).

[Faint]

GRRM has said that he needs each book to have a certain coherent structure to at least some of the storylines (so Cersei ruling and then being arrested in AFFC, Dany's rule of Meereen collapsing in ADWD and Theon's rediscovery of his identity) even when a lot of the subplots are transitory.

I don't see why this would factor into making three smallers books as opposed to two larger ones. Some storylines would have a certain coherent structure, as you put it, most would not. In the other words, the same situation that was found in the past two books.

So yes, he could produce shorter books if they had their own structure, but I think he's also aware of the fact that every time a new book comes out he loses six months from the next one on PR and tour work, and he'd rather get as much material into each of the two remaining books and lose one more six-month period to PR rather than write three shorter ones and lose another year. Writing three shorter books would take more time than writing two longer ones because of that very issue.

You speak of these commitments as if they were absolutes. I'm sure the author is quite capable of shortening each public relations blitz to three months, if so inclined, and if he is actually determined to keep ahead of the show.

Assuming the series does need 3,000 more manuscript pages for completion (I'm dubious, but we'll go with that figure for purposes of this discussion), if Martin went with three books instead of two, he would at least stand a good shot of publishing two-thirds of that material before the television show caught up with him. He might even have an outside chance of getting all three books done in time, provided the two books he delivers beforehand keep the show occupied enough that they are willing to maybe extend the series to eight or nine seasons.

[Lord Elrosir]

Capable of shortening the public relations bits? Sure. But will he? Probably not. They are constant ego boosts, people lining up to sing your praises and buy your books.

I mean, I wouldn't turn them down.

[Cas Stark]

Oh brother. Now his book tour is an excuse for why he can't get his books out in a timely manner? I don't care if they are 300 pages or 3000 pages as long as what is contain in them is good, and not fluff and filler that should have been edited out...like POVs that go nowhere, which are a waste of his time and the reader's time, paragraphs about food and site seeing, which are a waste of his time and the reader's time, side stories that would be better left to Ice and Fire anthologies and related works.

We are halfway through 2013, he has variously said, I think, he has 400 pages, 200 pages fully completed and is 25% finished with the book. This is not encouraging.

[Lord Elrosir]

and those same numbers seemed to be stated exactly one year ago. does not look good.

[lokisnow]

Some storylines would have a certain coherent structure, as you put it, most would not. In the other words, the same situation that was found in the past two books.

In terms of the future books, I think there won't be a problem with coherent structure. Think about story threads, the four surviving Stark children all have one POV with them, and are situated to have extremely few chapters as they've all been sequestered 'offscreen' perhaps they'll be brought back on screen, but Bran, Arya, Sansa and Rickon (as told by Davos) have all been positioned so that GRRM only has to write a handful of chapters for each.

That's four major story threads he doesn't really need to continue as he maneuvers the other story threads, maneuvering these four threads back into the action is probably going to wait until ADOS as he resolves the other major plots. Arya is perhaps the best candidate to rejoin the main action if she's sent to the North to replace fArya and take her face (my personal theory).

So that leaves Sam as the only other isolated POV, he's also been maneuvered so that his thread doesn't have much to do, though it is quite possible he is brought back into the action before ADOS, we shall see. But those five significant plot threads being sequestered means GRRM has already simplified the story for himself.

So that leaves the other plot threads: Here we have Jon, Melisandre, Asha and Theon all in the North. Jon and Melisandre have merged and Asha and Theon have merged, and merged sections generally have shorter chapter lengths and more rapid progression of the plot. Additionally, it's reasonable to suspect that Jaime and Brienne have merged and the BWB is making for Winterfell at top speed if they hear from Jaime news of "Arya" being at Winterfell. So all six of these POVs could conceivably be in one place, which makes for more efficient storytelling, and some of these POVs will probably die.

Down south we have Arianne merging with Connington and Connington will probably die. This will then move on Kingslanding and merge with the Cersei perspective to tell the story of fAegon's sack of Kings landing.

This only leaves four perspectives, and three are already basically merged, Barristan, Tyrian and Victarion will trade perspectives on the Meereen war until Dany returns, the return of Dany will probably greatly reduce Barristan and Victarion chapters, and Dany and Tyrion will trade off on telling the story of whatever happens next for her contingent.

So it's easy to perceive the next book as being much more efficient in terms of having it's plots not being all over the place. You have five sequestered threads (Sam and the Stark kids), and what ultimately becomes three other plots: The North, Kings Landing and Essos.

for a book the size of ADWD

12 Tyrion

8 Dany

2 Barristan

3 Victarion

10 Jon

2 Melisandre

5 Theon

2 Asha

5 Jaime

1 Brienne

10 Cersei

4 Arianne

1 Connington

2 Bran

2 Sam

2 Sansa

2 Davos

4 Arya (because she is Paris' favorite)

that's 79 chapters, which is right in line with ASOS and ADWD

Ah, but how long will the chapters be? AFFC is the anomoly of the series, with so many of the prologue chapters being long novella esque digressions, often because they were only ever meant to be 'one-offs' and our only chance to see that perspective. AFFC also suffers because all the narrative threads, other than when Jaime and Cersei are both in KL, are never interacting, non-interacting threads result in longer chapters. To see this in action, look at how the Winterfell and KL and Eyerie chapters of AGOT are all shorter, because you have the key events being portrayed from multiple eyes, and thus everything doesn't have to be crammed into a single chapter. Likewise Blackwater with its kinetic back and forth between Sansa and Tyrion. Or perhaps Jon and Sam's tennis chapters when Jon is elected LC. So I think GRRM is likely to get us shorter chapters.

average chapter length based on US hardcover first editions:

AGOT: 9.3 pages

ACOK: 10.4 pages

ASOS: 11.3 pages

AFFC: 14.9 pages

ADWD: 13.2 pages

So if GRRM writes somewhere between his ASOS and ADWD manner he can deliver a volume in the size of either of those, with the same amount of chapters (70-80) covering all the characters in the cast.

the above does leaves Aeron and Areo dangling, but they're basically discards anyway, leftover vestiges of the prologue initiative (perhaps they can be prologue and epilogue chapters?)

This will also make it easier to adapt TWOW for the show because you can visit the three main plots in Essos, The North and KL each episode and also one or two of the sequestered plots.

[JagLover]

Dany: There's no way they can end Season 4 with her taking Meereen, her plot would basically be exactly the same as Season 3. Ideally I would go as far as her riding on Drogon, but there's an issue there because Tyrion will still be in Kings Landing. I guess you could go as far as the man depositing his child's bones in the court, but even then, what is there in Season 4 that we haven't seen already from Dany?

Season 5 she absolutely has to leave. Battle for Meereen done, Tyrion on board as special-dragon-advisor, head for Westeros. Perhaps with the caption "I know we've had a lot of these scenes where Dany's got an army and looks very prepared to invade Westeros, but we really mean it this time".

I really do not like both the Dany and Tyrion storylines in ADWD and I think there is a real danger of TV audiences getting fed up if Dany is still not in Westeros by the end of S5 of a 7-8 season show.

The question to my mind is what is the Mereen plotline trying to achieve?

To my mind it is to demonstrate to Dany that she may be a good conqueror but she doesn't yet know how to rule and needs good advisors (perhaps where Tyrion comes in?). I would suggest the show could cover this in half a season not two and cut out the Tyrion Travelogue while they are at it.

[DaveSumm]

Just had an idea of how to deal with Dany's story and its synchronicity with Tyrion's:

Season 4: While Dany is ruling Yunkai/Meereen (they may merge them), the Sons of the Harpy start killing guards. Dragons kill a kid so she has to lock them up, but can't catch Drogon. Throughout the season she is under constant pressure to open the fighting pits but doesn't. She learns of Jorah's betrayal and sends him packing. Then at the end, she is forced to marry Hizdahr to prevent more murders BUT.....at her wedding, NOT at the fighting pits which are still closed, Drogon shows up, she jumps on his back and rides off.

Tyrion has all his aSoS stuff to get through.

Season 5: Hizdahr, who luckily got as far as 'I do' at the wedding and is therefore in charge of Yunkai/Meereen, has Barristan as his Kingsguard. Hizdahr reopens the fighting pits because Dany's gone. Tyrion arrives in Pentos and after a quick meeting with Illyrio, gets put on a boat headed for Yunkai/Meereen. The boat gets captured by slavers, and he meets Jorah who has also been captured. They both get sent to the fighting pits, Tyrion gets thrown in with a lion, he's about to meet his maker..........when Dany shows up on Drogon and torches the lion, then a whole bunch of slavers as well. Most epic dragon scene of the series to date, easily. Dany recruits Tyrion as special-dragon-advisor/Hand, battle of Meereen, head to Westeros.

So basically to create a Season 4 climax, you have Dany's escape at the wedding (GoT will sure of made a name of itself for a good wedding), then the fighting pits is just reversed; she's returning instead of escaping.

[victim]

fArya and Alys Karstark will be the same character in the show.

[Khal-a-bunga]

I think they're going to have Sam take over the role of fake Arya, simply because it doesn't make sense for Jon to send him to Oldtown where he'll be the only character the audience is familiar with. Either him, or Nymeria, to bring her back into the fold.

.....................

[The Human Abstract]

I think they're going to have Sam take over the role of fake Arya, simply because it doesn't make sense for Jon to send him to Oldtown where he'll be the only character the audience is familiar with. Either him, or Nymeria, to bring her back into the fold.

.....................

Thing is: we don't actually know how important Oldtown is or how easily it can be replaced. Sam's crew there inclues Jaquen and a sand snake in disguise. So... hmm... It's very likely quite important to the plot. But we can't develop an alternative to it ourselves without even knowing why it's important yet.