[TV SPOILERS] Jon, Ygritte & Orel Love Triangle

[Gendels Children]

most of the nudity and sex scenes are pointless and such a cheap trick, pod n 3 whores in a brothel. I just keep thinking that could have been 3 minutes with cat n robb or Jon or ANYONE important to the story.

I don't mean loooads of time dedicated on direwolves, but more time. Definitely at least mentioning Nymeria, for example.

i don't have a problem with the scenes between actual characters ie jon, ygritte but all these random scenes like pod and the whores, bronn and the whores, theon and the whores, seriously, they are so unnecessary.

this I agree with very much, seriously for me it just cheapens the whole dynamic of the TV show. but I can look past that.

one thing I have difficulty looking past is the lack of Direwolves, yes, we have had a lot more dragons than wolves which is kind of insulting, as a reader you know the connection to {insert Stark child name here] and their direwolf is much stronger then Dany and her dragons (I know dany thinks of them as her children but not as a part of her), but they barely touch on the wolves at all in the TV adaption. I have non reading friends who have forgotten that ALL the Starks (aside from sansa at this point) have direwolves. IMHO the they should be a larger part of the story as everything ASOIAF and GOT is a credit to this one scene GRRM visualized of children finding Direwolves in the snow, EVERYTHING came from this point, to me this means there is a much larger story going on with these wolves than we may even know yet.

YES I understand it costs a lot of money, and viewers seem to swoon over the dragons, but this doesn't stop the writers from at least adding some dialog about the animals, no mention of Nymeria at all, Jon seems to have forgotten all about Ghost and vies versa, Robb is to busy being a King to even think about Greywind, Rickon simply isn't noted in any way aside from one line a season so I cant expect too much about him and Shaggydog.

But this season isn't over yet, im holding hope that we can have a little more attention to the Stark pets in the next couple of episodes.

and the love triangle (while not actually being a triangle) is interesting, I cant say im surprised they put this in at all, but likeothers has said I don't think its as black and white as it seem. its more in place as serving a purpose to have some things spelt out for the viewers. as with Sansa and Shae, and now Sansa and Margery we need someone they can talk to, to get the thoughts out of their heads and into the heads of viewers, in the books we do have a huge advantage of knowing exactly what they are thinking, which is clearly hard to portray in film with out some kind of cheesy monologue.

[Gendels Children]

:lmao:

But not since the end of the second season, apart from a little shot near Sammy.

I think we should see either Robb or Jon screaming "WHERE IS MY DIREWOLF?!!" some time soon. :P

ALSO OMFG HAHAHAHA gave me a good laugh!!!!!!!!!

[Rhaegarsjoy]

Well, if the show was closer to the book, we would be getting a Tormund has a big dick running joke...

Cant deny that they should have spent more time with Cat though.

I would prefer tormund's member getting a Lil screen time at least in his case it's true whereas Pod's might be a Lil pea that hasn't fully developed yet.

[six]

I'd just like to point out it's a rivalry between Jon and Orell, not a Love Triangle. Love Triangles are when all three people love each other, i.e. Arthur, Lancelot, and Guinevere.

Orell (probably) and Jon (definitely) love Ygritte, and both hate each other. Ygritte loves Jon, and doesn't want Orell to even touch her... (because he's an icky warg?)

I know it's semantics, but words are important, their meanings are important, and pretending words mean something they don't, is bad.

I disagree. There are different types of love triangles, and two men wanting a girl and hating each other is a triangle even when said girl has no interest in one of the men or she's oblivious to it. It's the presence of a second suitor that plays with the dynamic of the main couple that makes it a triangle, it doesn't matter whether Orell is an hopeless suitor.

I can't say I'm loving it though, but I suppose we'll see where it goes. book spoiler

If things go as planned it shouldn't last for too long, anyway. Or here's hoping.

[Gendels Children]

If things go as planned it shouldn't last for too long, anyway. Or here's hoping.

:frown5:

[JaTyAdo]

<snip>

:love:

'Friggin like button that disappeared!! I really don't understand how they couldn't show them bonding with their direwolves!!

I would prefer tormund's member getting a Lil screen time at least in his case it's true whereas Pod's might be a Lil pea that hasn't fully developed yet.

:rofl: If they would actually put unnecessary things in the show, I'd rather watch something out of the book.. Damn them!

I disagree. There are different types of love triangles, and two men wanting a girl and hating each other is a triangle even when said girl has no interest in one of the men or she's oblivious to it. It's the presence of a second suitor that plays with the dynamic of the main couple that makes it a triangle, it doesn't matter whether Orell is an hopeless suitor.

I can't say I'm loving it though, but I suppose we'll see where it goes. book spoiler

If things go as planned it shouldn't last for too long, anyway. Or here's hoping.

Finally, someone gets it right!

[Silverx2]

Maybe Orel sinces the dragon in him. Everyone hates those targs, even the wildlings.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

I am more interested in what Orell meant with "you do not know what he really is". Did he mean he is still loyal to the NW (which Ygritte knows better than Orell anyway)? Not likely. Did he mean Jon is a warg? How could Orell have known that if he never even saw Ghost?

book spoilers

"One skinchanger can always sense another" -dwd prologue( even though Sixskins saw Jon with Ghost beside him, that line implies he could've sensed Jon's gift without Ghost there so if they stay canon to the books Orell should be able to as well)

"You won't love him once you find out what he really is." is what Orell says to Ygritte.

It could mean a ton of things, first Orell explaining that he isn't greatly loved because he's a warg, second that he knows

Jon is a warg as well

or it could mean that Ygritte couldn't possibly love Jon Snow if she knew he was truly a crow.

Orell is correct the Ygritte cannot possibly love Jon Snow if he's a crow, something she can't even admit to herself. "I'm your woman, you're going to be loyal to your woman"

[Moët]

I disagree. There are different types of love triangles, and two men wanting a girl and hating each other is a triangle even when said girl has no interest in one of the men or she's oblivious to it. It's the presence of a second suitor that plays with the dynamic of the main couple that makes it a triangle, it doesn't matter whether Orell is an hopeless suitor.

No.

You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. Words don't mean whatever you want them to mean. Words have definitions.

RIVAL

LOVE TRIANGLE

By definition, it's not a Love Triangle because Orell and Jon are RIVALS.

Even by your own admission, Ygritte being "oblivious" to it, makes her not part of any triangle. All three have to be involved in LOVE in the Triangle with each person in the triangle. Three things ≠ triangle.

[six]

No.

You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. Words don't mean whatever you want them to mean. Words have definitions.

RIVAL

LOVE TRIANGLE

By definition, it's not a Love Triangle because Orell and Jon are RIVALS.

Even by your own admission, Ygritte being "oblivious" to it, makes her not part of any triangle. All three have to be involved in LOVE in the Triangle with each person in the triangle. Three things ≠ triangle.

You're wrong. From the wikipedia link you provide:

"While it can refer to two people independently romantically linked with a third, it usually implies that each of the three people has some kind of relationship to the other two. The relationships can be friendships, romantic, or familial (often other siblings)."

First of all, the definition says it can refer to two people independently romantically linked to a third. Secondly, Orell/Jon/Ygritte do have some kind of relationship with each other. Jon and Orell are also rivals, but the two aspects can coexist and do not negate each other.

According to tv tropes Triang Relations this is number 4.

[Moët]

You're wrong. From the wikipedia link you provide:

"While it can refer to two people independently romantically linked with a third, it usually implies that each of the three people has some kind of relationship to the other two. The relationships can be friendships, romantic, or familial (often other siblings)."

First of all, the definition says it can refer to two people independently romantically linked to a third. Secondly, Orell/Jon/Ygritte do have some kind of relationship with each other. Jon and Orell are also rivals, but the two aspects can coexist and do not negate each other.

According to tv tropes Triang Relations this is number 4.

"While it can refer to two people independently romantically linked with a third, it usually implies that each of the three people has some kind of relationship to the other two. The relationships can be friendships, romantic, or familial (often other siblings)."

Hate doesn't count, even with #4. That is the tragedy of a love triangle, it ends up hurting everyone involved because they all care about/like/love each other some way. Ygritte doesn't care/like/love Orell and in fact, harbors some animosity towards him which has been clear on more than one occasion in the show, and Jon HATES him. Hate isn't a relationship.

[six]

"While it can refer to two people independently romantically linked with a third, it usually implies that each of the three people has some kind of relationship to the other two. The relationships can be friendships, romantic, or familial (often other siblings)."

Hate doesn't count, even with #4. That is the tragedy of a love triangle, it ends up hurting everyone involved because they all care about/like/love each other some way. Ygritte doesn't care/like/love Orell and in fact, harbors some animosity towards him which has been clear on more than one occasion in the show, and Jon HATES him.

Where does it say that "hate doesn't count" or is it just your interpretation? Because that's not how I'm reading it. One of the cited examples in #4 is Indecent Proposal where the two male leads don't care for each other in the slightest. Another is the Cosette/Eponine/Marius from Le Miserables, where Eponine is close to Marius but doesn't even know Cosette. Demetrius/Hermia/Lysander from A Midsummer Night's Dream are listed too, and Lysander and Demetrius are rivals at the beginning of the play.

Also, I never got the impression Ygritte or Jon hated Orell. Orell is the one doing the hating because he's jealous being an hopeless suitor to Ygritte.

[Moët]

Where does it say that "hate doesn't count" or is it just your interpretation? Because that's not how I'm reading it. One of the cited examples in #4 is Indecent Proposal where the two male leads don't care for each other in the slightest. Another is the Cosette/Eponine/Marius from Le Miserables, where Eponine is close to Marius but doesn't even know Cosette. Demetrius/Hermia/Lysander from A Midsummer Night's Dream are listed too, and Lysander and Demetrius are rivals at the beginning of the play.

Also, I never got the impression Ygritte or Jon hated Orell. Orell is the one doing the hating because he's jealous being an hopeless suitor to Ygritte.

Where does it say hate DOES count?

Are you really arguing that HATE is a "relationship" that has anything to do with friendships, romantic, or familial ?

Two people who love each other, and both actively dislike a person who loves ONE of the other two ≠ Love Triangle.

Jon hates Orell. He ends up killing him FFS. Ygritte recoils from him, and hisses, "Don't touch me!" She never said, "Hey babe, I really care about you, and I'm so sorry, but I just don't feel the same way, no hard feelings, okay? We can still be friends."

Eponine knows OF Cosette, but doesn't hate her, and loves Marius so unconditionally she sacrifices herself so he can be happy. Cosette doesn't even know of Eponine's existence, so it's not a Love Triangle, Indecent Proposal really isn't either, even if RR wants something from the other two, I don't care what that page says.

The Lovers from Midsummer aren't a Love Triangle until Puck screws everything up by putting the love juice from the purple flower on Lysander's eyes instead of Demetrius's, and then finds Demetrius and does him too after being yelled at by Oberon. Then it's your #4. Helena and Demetrius love each other (even though she thinks they're both mocking her at that point), and cares for Lysander in a friend way, since he's her BFF's soon to be hubby, and they both LOVE Helena. LOVE LOVE LOVE, while the boys are Rivals for Helena. If Helena disliked Lysander, it wouldn't be a Love Triangle. It would be a couple who are in love, with some shmoe that neither of them like, that won't leave them in peace.

Before that, it's not because Hermia dislikes Demetrius because he wants to marry her and she loves someone else and won't leave her the fuck alone, where Demetrius wants to KILL Lysander. That is NOT a Love Triangle.

But when two people both actively dislike the same person in the "triangle" (Jon + Ygritte feel about Orell), (and two people actively hate each other and are for sure, "I'm going to kill you given the first opportunity." (Jon + Orell feel about each other), ≠ LOVE. It might qualify for a Chaos Triangle, but not a LOVE TRIANGLE. There's not really enough LOVE, or even caring to qualify.

[Mulled Wino]

Have to agree with Door. Its pretty clear

[Moët]

Have to agree with Door. Its pretty clear

....that actual definitions mean nothing?

Love Triangle according to the OED:

“a state of affairs in which one person is romantically or sexually involved with two others (one or both of whom may not be aware of or complicit in the situation).”

Arthur loves Guinevere and Lancelot.

Lancelot loves Arthur and Guinevere.

Guinevere loves Arthur and Lancelot.

Guinevere has taken both men as lovers. Both men love each other as friends, and love Guinevere as lovers. = Love Triangle.

Orell wants/(loves?) Ygritte, and hates Jon Snow.

Jon Snow loves Ygritte, and hates Orell.

Ygritte loves Jon Snow, and dislikes/will never be with, wants him to NOT TOUCH HER, Orell.

Jon and Ygritte are a couple. For the triangle to even have a third corner, and close, either Jon or Ygritte would have to reciprocate some way, i.e. Ygritte loves Orell, or Jon loves Orell as a friend, but neither are true. Right now it's a closed math equation with Jon + Tygritte = LOVE. Orell is outside with no +1. One of the two has to love him back, otherwise his corner doesn't really fit into the triangle. It doesn't matter if he throws his rope out, if it hooks nothing, he is still alone. It's a couple with someone outside that loves one part of the couple. If Orell is in the water, and Jon and Yritte are together in a boat, and neither one pulls Orell into the boat - he's not part of their boat/triangle.

Just because they both involve three people, does not make them the same.

Would you say that if Angelina Jolie had a stalker, that Angelina + Brad + Stalker = Love Triangle?

Just because you believe something is so, doesn't make it correct.

A lot of people think "Your welcome" is correct, but it isn't. It's not only misspelled, it's not a sentence nor does it mean anything in English. It's just two random words together. It doesn't mean what they think it means. Your is possessive. Welcome cannot be possessed. The correct spelling and meaning is, "You're welcome." (You are welcome.)

Many people also write, "they should of gone to the ocean", when they should HAVE (or should've) gone to the ocean" is correct. "Should of" doesn't mean anything, it's just a misspelling of the contraction should've.

[Master Forel's Fro]

Who cares you get how it's meant in this context. People use words in one way that have a different meaning in the dictionary.

[Moët]

Who cares you get how it's meant in this context. People use words in one way that have a different meaning in the dictionary.

It doesn't mean they're right. I can call a dog a pony, but it doesn't make the dog a pony.

It doesn't make it a love triangle.

I don't consider it a love triangle. Orell is jealous of Jon Snow and tried to undermine his standing with Ygritte. She shut him down, end of story.

Have to agree, there is no triangle, he likes Ygritte but it is not mutual. She is Jon's, period. It just allows for some tension and possibly for Orell to reveal something about Jon that they don't know yet.

:agree:

[Master Forel's Fro]

So you spend the last week arguing about the correct meaning of love triangle who cares

[Master Forel's Fro]

Maybe Orel sinces the dragon in him. Everyone hates those targs, even the wildlings.

Do the wildlings know about Targs?

[six]

Where does it say hate DOES count?

Are you really arguing that HATE is a "relationship" that has anything to do with friendships, romantic, or familial ?

Two people who love each other, and both actively dislike a person who loves ONE of the other two ≠ Love Triangle.

Jon hates Orell. He ends up killing him FFS. Ygritte recoils from him, and hisses, "Don't touch me!" She never said, "Hey babe, I really care about you, and I'm so sorry, but I just don't feel the same way, no hard feelings, okay? We can still be friends."

Eponine knows OF Cosette, but doesn't hate her, and loves Marius so unconditionally she sacrifices herself so he can be happy. Cosette doesn't even know of Eponine's existence, so it's not a Love Triangle, Indecent Proposal really isn't either, even if RR wants something from the other two, I don't care what that page says.

The Lovers from Midsummer aren't a Love Triangle until Puck screws everything up by putting the love juice from the purple flower on Lysander's eyes instead of Demetrius's, and then finds Demetrius and does him too after being yelled at by Oberon. Then it's your #4. Helena and Demetrius love each other (even though she thinks they're both mocking her at that point), and cares for Lysander in a friend way, since he's her BFF's soon to be hubby, and they both LOVE Helena. LOVE LOVE LOVE, while the boys are Rivals for Helena. If Helena disliked Lysander, it wouldn't be a Love Triangle. It would be a couple who are in love, with some shmoe that neither of them like, that won't leave them in peace.

Before that, it's not because Hermia dislikes Demetrius because he wants to marry her and she loves someone else and won't leave her the fuck alone, where Demetrius wants to KILL Lysander. That is NOT a Love Triangle.

But when two people both actively dislike the same person in the "triangle" (Jon + Ygritte feel about Orell), (and two people actively hate each other and are for sure, "I'm going to kill you given the first opportunity." (Jon + Orell feel about each other), ≠ LOVE. It might qualify for a Chaos Triangle, but not a LOVE TRIANGLE. There's not really enough LOVE, or even caring to qualify.

Again, you're wrong. You can write essays proving your point, but you also need to back it up with facts that are not only your interpretation.

- The examples in the tv tropes link cites a list of 13 different types of triang-relations. Maybe you should tell them they're all wrong and have them all deleted. It's evident to me, that while there's a definition of what a love triangle might have initially meant (the wiki one), it has shifted through the years, as fiction has provided a selection of different types of love triangles that might not strictly adhere to the original definition, but still qualify as triangles.

- Did you watch Indecent Proposal? The two male leads have no relation with each other, they actively dislike each other, and play a power game with each other through a woman. Still, it's a triangle, cited as a triangle, known to the whole world as a film with a love triangle.

- Jon hates Orell: in the books. In the show Jon is being antagonised by Orell, who seems to be jealous. Until Orell approached Jon last week and pretty much told him he hates his guts, Jon never showed any feelings of any sort towards him. Orell is the one hating and creating a rivarly.

- Ygritte hates Orell: and where did you get that from? I don't know which gender are you, but as woman myself I can assure you that when a bloke is hitting on me and possessively grabbing me, I'd tell tell him not to touch me. Not because I harbour hatred towards him, but because if I'm not interested in said guy I want him to keep his hands to himself. As others have pointed out, Ygritte was actually quite mild in letting him down, and only got annoyed when he started putting her hands on her. It doesn't mean she hates him at all, she just doesn't want him romantically.

- The definition you bring up from wikipedia says clearly it can refer to two people independently linked to a third, which means there are exceptions to the rule. A rejected suitor is still a suitor.

- Ygritte and Orell do have a relationship as people, as they're part of the same group or tribe if you like, and seem to know each other on a personal level.

- Quoting people who agree with you doesn't back up your argument. Like at all. There's a major logical fallacy in pointing out opinions as facts.

Anyway, this is getting boring to everyone, so you're of course free to believe whatever you prefer, if it pleases you.