Doctor Who: Regenerated discussion

[red snow]

Good episode. It would have made a really bittersweet ending for Clara if she'd died and would have made her one of the more memorable companions. Feels a bit of a cop-out to save her, Unless like someone suggested, the anniversary episode is all set within the Doctor's timeline and she doesn't make it out at the end.

For a second I thought the shadowed figure was going to be leonard Nimoy Spock :)

My feeling was that it was the time war doctor. Otherwise there wasn't a good reason for Matt Smith Doctor recognising him. I never spotted McGann in all of those flashes so it could be that the 8th does die or deliberately regenerates into John Hurt version and does the things necessary to end the war. But it all seems stupid as the credits refer to him as "the Doctor" - shouldn't it have been " "the doctor" "? Whether John hurt is the valeyard or not remains to be seen. Maybe the other timelords just use his real name? Still a little bit of Who inconsistency when it's always been established that the Doctor ended the time war/killed the timelords.

If he is the inbetween incarnation it leaves me wondering how old the ecclestone Doctor was when we met him? I still feel like that Doctor was pretty dark at times and that could be due to him still remembering what he did in his previous incarnations. It's also a real shame they can't get ecclestone to even do a short scene as you'd hope the John Hurt doctor will play out with him regenerating. It'd also be nice to see him "born" with a Mcgann appearance. Maybe they'll find a way to pull it off.

The biggest thing about all of this is that we now know that the Doctor is on his 12th incarnation. If they stick to the current lore that will make his next death a big deal and the Doctor himself is probably thinking that tomb is where the current him ends up. Of course they will retcon the incarnations (most likely with some nonsense of him taking on other timelord's regenerations or some lovey-duvvey "the universe needs the doctor and saves him".

There should be a Strax and co spin-off somewhere. I do like them as a recurring team as I like a larger cast. Oh. and Matt Smith was excellent in that scene where he broke down at Clara's house. It was like the Doctor we see is really a mask for the broken and lonely person underneath.

No idea what's going on with River these days. I can't even remember what her status quo was the last time we saw her. This version was just a hologram though so was a bit hollow for me. Did they establish in the last appearance with her that they'd never meet until the library?

[Lady Octarina]

I think its (chronologically) the last time we'll see River (maybe), but he's still got stuff to do with the pre-library River, i.e tell her his name. I think she'll be in the anniversary. She did poijt out that there's some kind of connection between her and Clara.

Curious why the Doctor's death made a scar. Every other dying time lord including the master left a body

I hope you're right, but I think we don't really have to see him telling her his name or giving her the sonic screwdriver onscreen.

As to the scar thing, in the episode they say it's because no other creature in the universe traveled as much through time as he did.

The biggest thing about all of this is that we now know that the Doctor is on his 12th incarnation. If they stick to the current lore that will make his next death a big deal and the Doctor himself is probably thinking that tomb is where the current him ends up. Of course they will retcon the incarnations (most likely with some nonsense of him taking on other timelord's regenerations or some lovey-duvvey "the universe needs the doctor and saves him".

As long as doesn't happen while Moffat is the showrunner, at least we won't have the tears of every person the Doctor ever saved giving him some more regeneration energy :bang:

[red snow]

I hope you're right, but I think we don't really have to see him telling her his name or giving her the sonic screwdriver onscreen.

As to the scar thing, in the episode they say it's because no other creature in the universe traveled as much through time as he did.

As long as doesn't happen while Moffat is the showrunner, at least we won't have the tears of every person the Doctor ever saved giving him some more regeneration energy :bang:

I strongly suspect that Matt Smith will leave before or when Moffat leaves. So chances are Moffat will handle the Doctor's final regeneration. Although it wouldn't be final as he's already had it. So you will be at the mercy of Moffat.

[williamjm]

As for who John hurt is playing, I think most feel he's the Time War era Doctor (prior to that I think a lot of people assumed 8th Doctor that was involved with that) but what if he isn't? It said in the episode that he didn't do those things in the name of the Doctor- so in whose name did he do it?

It's possible the 8th Doctor is involved at the start of the Time War, gets killed sometime during it and then regenerates into John Hurt.

If he is the inbetween incarnation it leaves me wondering how old the ecclestone Doctor was when we met him?

I think Ecclestone's first appearance in Rose was meant to be implying that he had newly regenerated, we see him apparently checking his appearance as if he wasn't quite sure what he looked like.

[Jon AS]

What's the full story of the Valeyard anyway? I've only seen his appearance in Trial of a Timelord.

Good episode. It would have made a really bittersweet ending for Clara if she'd died and would have made her one of the more memorable companions. Feels a bit of a cop-out to save her, Unless like someone suggested, the anniversary episode is all set within the Doctor's timeline and she doesn't make it out at the end.

Yeah, considering that all Clara had going for her so far was the mystery, I don't really see an advantage of keeping her around as a character. Maybe the 50th anniversary special will giver her a bit more substance.

If he is the inbetween incarnation it leaves me wondering how old the ecclestone Doctor was when we met him? I still feel like that Doctor was pretty dark at times and that could be due to him still remembering what he did in his previous incarnations. It's also a real shame they can't get ecclestone to even do a short scene as you'd hope the John Hurt doctor will play out with him regenerating. It'd also be nice to see him "born" with a Mcgann appearance. Maybe they'll find a way to pull it off.

IIRC one of the first things Ecclestone's Doctor did when getting to Rose's home was to check himself out in the mirror, commenting on his appearance (this might have been the first time he comments on never having been a ginger), the implication obviously being that he's only recently regenerated.

No idea what's going on with River these days. I can't even remember what her status quo was the last time we saw her. This version was just a hologram though so was a bit hollow for me. Did they establish in the last appearance with her that they'd never meet until the library?

No, I don't think anything of the kind is established. I believe they're just leaving it open in case they want to use River again, but there is no real need to fill in all the blanks (do we really want an episode dedicated to the Doctor getting dressed up for a last date with River just so we can actually see him giving her the screwdriver?).

As long as doesn't happen while Moffat is the showrunner, at least we won't have the tears of every person the Doctor ever saved giving him some more regeneration energy :bang:

Nah, they'll just say that it was cleared up when everyone sent positive thoughts to the Doctor so he could turn into some kind of deity to defeat the Master. ;)

More seriously, River used up all her remaining regenerations to save him, that could be a way out. Or they could just have him die, regenerate and then be very confused as to how and why he's still alive without ever explaining it.

[polishgenius]

As to the scar thing, in the episode they say it's because no other creature in the universe traveled as much through time as he did.

That makes his scar extra big, but it specifically states that no time-traveller should go to their own grave. Apart from Rory and Amy of course. That wasn't a problem. Well, not for that reason.

[Faraday]

More seriously, River used up all her remaining regenerations to save him, that could be a way out. Or they could just have him die, regenerate and then be very confused as to how and why he's still alive without ever explaining it.

They can use the river thing, yes. As a temporary solution, at least. Then when it gets to her regenerations used up it won't be Moffat's problem any more :P

Also Matt Smith's been excellent in the past two episodes. Curious as how Tennant/Him work together. I think they'll play off each other well, though.

[red snow]

well if ecclestone's appearance in the show was essentially right after John Hurt's "death" that would be a nice retcon to why that Doctor was quite threatening (I'm remembering the scene where he scares a fleet of Daleks). It means there wasn't that long between the time war actually been undone. Of course, that's assuming John Hurt Doctor died at the end of the time war. Maybe he lived for a while after doing questionable things in his grief/rage?

More seriously, River used up all her remaining regenerations to save him, that could be a way out. Or they could just have him die, regenerate and then be very confused as to how and why he's still alive without ever explaining it.

I think I'd like that scenario, It was a bit silly to limit things in the first place to be honest.

For some reason I've been misreading "scar" as "scaf" in the last few posts :)

[red snow]

They can use the river thing, yes. As a temporary solution, at least. Then when it gets to her regenerations used up it won't be Moffat's problem any more :P

Also Matt Smith's been excellent in the past two episodes. Curious as how Tennant/Him work together. I think they'll play off each other well, though.

The behind the scenes video of the two of them suggest those doctor's are quite pally, while the John Hurt one is a bit confused. On and off screen. I think it will be fun. I kind of expect Hurt to be a bit of a git. The big question is whether the episode is "real" or not. I'm hoping it's genuine versions of the doctor and not the timestream setting.

Although my head hurts already at the fact the Doctor doesn't remember Clara telling him which TARDIS to steal. I guess it was a long time ago but surely that was a day to remember?

[john]

It's possible to bring her back, of course, since it's Doctor Who and what is logic?, but I doubt that's going to happen, and as the best thing about the character is how she dies, it would be as disappointing as it was to see Clara rescued this episode. But I'd still like to see some of post-prison-pre-Library River.

It would be lame if she was brought back from her perspective, after they had the goodbye scene and all. Possibly they could still use a pre-library River but I agree with John AS: we don't really need to see him give her the screwdriver or any of that (and notice he only gives her an old fashioned 10th era screwdriver :P). They have to finish with Alex Kingston sometime and this seemed like a decent enough end.

A pretty good episode but damn, did they have to leave us hanging till november? I'm fairly sure that this isn't supposed to give any sort of closure for the Trenzalore and Silence arc though, but instead is just a teaser. It seems the true closure for that arc will be next year perhaps after the 50th, when we get the enormous battle were the Doctor dies (the fall of the 11th).

I was reading the Dorium Maldovar (big blue head in a box guy) prophecy:

DORIUM: "On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the Eleventh, when no living creature may speak falsely or fail to give answer, a question will be asked. A question that must never, ever be answered."

THE DOCTOR: "Silence will fall when the question is asked..."

DORIUM: ""Silence must fall" would be a better translation. The Silence are determined that the question must never be answered. The Doctor must never reach Trenzalore."

THE DOCTOR: "I don't understand? What's it got do do with me?"

DORIUM: "The first question. The oldest question in the universe, hidden in plain sight. Would you like to know what it is?"

And it's true that this need not refer to the events in Name of the Doctor. But the line about "no living creature may fail to give answer" seems to refer directly to River opening the TARDIS doors. The rest of it doesn't quite jive with what we know so far though. In what sense is the Doctor's name the first question, oldest in the universe?

A good episode and it certainly whet the appetite for November. I think I left the episode with more questions than answers, but that's part of the fun.

As for who John hurt is playing, I think most feel he's the Time War era Doctor (prior to that I think a lot of people assumed 8th Doctor that was involved with that) but what if he isn't? It said in the episode that he didn't do those things in the name of the Doctor- so in whose name did he do it?

The Valeyard (maybe, he was always said to be the Doctor's dark side)

The Other (less likely, but you never know)

Omega (again, less likely)

Whatever the case turns out to be, I'm sure we'll all have fun speculating until November rolls around!

The Doctor's protestations about him not having the name of Doctor are kind of undercut two seconds later when it has "introducing John Hurt as the Doctor" plastered all over the screen.

I get the impression that neither RTD nor Moffat are that taken by the Cartmel Masterplan, and I note that none of the writers from that era have been invited back, though AFAIK they're all still active (especially Ben Aaronovitch, who is writing urban fantasy novels).

I wouldn't say that. They seem to have embraced the central idea of making the Doctor a powerful, godlike figure rather than a run of the mill time traveller. They just did their own take on that.

The biggest thing about all of this is that we now know that the Doctor is on his 12th incarnation. If they stick to the current lore that will make his next death a big deal and the Doctor himself is probably thinking that tomb is where the current him ends up. Of course they will retcon the incarnations (most likely with some nonsense of him taking on other timelord's regenerations or some lovey-duvvey "the universe needs the doctor and saves him".

Regenerations are honestly not that big of a deal. River could regenerate and she's not even a timelord. She certainly wasn't granted a cycle of twelve regenerations by the Grand Council of Gallifrey.

[scotcat]

The Doctor's protestations about him not having the name of Doctor are kind of undercut two seconds later when it has "introducing John Hurt as the Doctor" plastered all over the screen.

True, though that could be a fake out. It wouldn't be the first time. If there is more to the John Hurt casting than merely being a previously unknown regeneration they're hardly likely to ruin their big 50th anniversary by announcing it 6 months before hand.

We'll find out in November.

[protar]

It would be lame if she was brought back from her perspective, after they had the goodbye scene and all. Possibly they could still use a pre-library River but I agree with John AS: we don't really need to see him give her the screwdriver or any of that (and notice he only gives her an old fashioned 10th era screwdriver :P). They have to finish with Alex Kingston sometime and this seemed like a decent enough end.

I was reading the Dorium Maldovar (big blue head in a box guy) prophecy:

DORIUM: "On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the Eleventh, when no living creature may speak falsely or fail to give answer, a question will be asked. A question that must never, ever be answered."

THE DOCTOR: "Silence will fall when the question is asked..."

DORIUM: ""Silence must fall" would be a better translation. The Silence are determined that the question must never be answered. The Doctor must never reach Trenzalore."

THE DOCTOR: "I don't understand? What's it got do do with me?"

DORIUM: "The first question. The oldest question in the universe, hidden in plain sight. Would you like to know what it is?"

And it's true that this need not refer to the events in Name of the Doctor. But the line about "no living creature may fail to give answer" seems to refer directly to River opening the TARDIS doors. The rest of it doesn't quite jive with what we know so far though. In what sense is the Doctor's name the first question, oldest in the universe?

But living creatures did fail to give answer in that situation. As instead a dead creature did. So yeah I really don't think that this was the Fall of the 11th. I mean I know Moffat can be rather careless about plot holes, but to not including the Silence at the Fall of the 11th is simply a huge oversight. And certainly a lot was left hanging here. We didn't find out why the Doctor dies here or what the huge battle was.

Imo the 50th anniversary will deal with restoring the Doctor's collapsing time-stream and then S8 will deal with the fall of the 11th.

Complete crackpot here but I had a brief and quickly dismissed thought that the Doctor's name was Trenzalore. But then I also thought for a second that his name was please so...

[john]

Yeah, i had the "what?" moment when he said please as well.

I think that the prophecy can be parsed as living creatures may refuse to give answer but a dead one mayn't. Otherwise they'll have to come back to the same place for another finale, which seems a bit redundant.

I'm pretty sure the special takes place in the real world. There appears to be a modern version of Susan's school in it. I think that the Doctor seeing Hurt means that he's been released somehow and gets involved with the real world.

Moffat wanted to use Ecclestone originally so it has to be a story that would have worked with him too. Ecclestone as a bad guy would have been great.

[red snow]

If Matt Smith wanted a year off to other projects/film, then I'd be cool with a season of John Hurt as the Doctor. Maybe he'd redeem himself or do some of the things that cause him to lose the title of Doctor. I was also thinking he may well have called himself Doctor and that it was just his following generations that decided to remove his title?

They'd need another companion to do that though or they'd be screwing continuity up even more than usual. They need to do something with him and for more than an anniversary episode IMO. Otherwise he may be even more of a waste than the 8th Doctor.

[Faraday]

I was also thinking he may well have called himself Doctor and that it was just his following generations that decided to remove his title?

Well, presumably so. It'd not make sense if not. So only 9/10/11 would be aware of what he'd done and thus "disown" him, I guess. It better show it/be extreme since we've seen the Doctor destroy races before and do rather cruel things, at times.

[protar]

Yeah given how this reveal is supposed to change the course of Who history forever or whatever, I sincerely hope he's not just there for the finale and then never mentioned again.

Also another thought, if John Hurt is the time war doctor does that mean the Doctor's Timestream offers a way through the timelock?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I am the only one that thinks that JHurt would be an excellent 12th Doctor?

[Lady Octarina]

Nah, they'll just say that it was cleared up when everyone sent positive thoughts to the Doctor so he could turn into some kind of deity to defeat the Master. ;)

More seriously, River used up all her remaining regenerations to save him, that could be a way out. Or they could just have him die, regenerate and then be very confused as to how and why he's still alive without ever explaining it.

The power of positive thoughts still makes more sense to me than the power of tears. :cool4:

But I agree River's regenerations would make a nice solution.

If Matt Smith wanted a year off to other projects/film, then I'd be cool with a season of John Hurt as the Doctor. Maybe he'd redeem himself or do some of the things that cause him to lose the title of Doctor. I was also thinking he may well have called himself Doctor and that it was just his following generations that decided to remove his title?

They'd need another companion to do that though or they'd be screwing continuity up even more than usual. They need to do something with him and for more than an anniversary episode IMO. Otherwise he may be even more of a waste than the 8th Doctor.

:agree:

It seems such a pity to use John Hurt only in the special. But, if he ends up being the Time War Doctor, I think he's probably the only one not to have a companion, and probably the "living" example of what truly happens to him when he travels alone (assuming he wasn't around just for the Time War, but maybe before that too).

[Black Wolf Smith]

I am the only one that thinks that JHurt would be an excellent 12th Doctor?

He wouldn't be the 12th. Smith said that he was the 11th "Doctor" but Hurt was him, but that had not lived up to "Doctor" meaning that Hurt was an older identity. IMO either he is before the first (which seems unlikely), or as others have said he is between 8th and 9th that fought in the Time War. It is possible that Hurt was part of the Time War and regen into Ecc who then ended it.

It was a wonderfull, crazy and quite mad ep. While there were a few things that I didn't like, I would say it mostly lived up to the hype. I don't think they answer as many question as they made it seem the would. I would have loved it had been the end of Clara. That would have been perfect. River was from after the 10 Doctor meeting her, but that doesn't mean that this is the last we will see of her. Either the current River or the download River could be back at any time.

Did anybody else not like the fact that Clara said she had seen all 11 Doctors. Shouldn't she have said seen all 11 plus a few more? Isn't the rule that their are 12 versions limit ( and yes I know that the Master found a way around it at least twice) We know that Smith isn't going to be around much longer, and that the show isn't going away any time soon. The ratings are close to the T Baker era, so it will go on passed the Smith era.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

He wouldn't be the 12th. Smith said that he was the 11th "Doctor" but Hurt was him, but that had not lived up to "Doctor" meaning that Hurt was an older identity. IMO either he is before the first (which seems unlikely), or as others have said he is between 8th and 9th that fought in the Time War. It is possible that Hurt was part of the Time War and regen into Ecc who then ended it.

I hadn't noticed it but him being in the LGTW is much more logic than a future reincarnation. It make sence if you think that he says that it's the name Doctor the one that matters and is the promise and that "he" broke that promise.