So did Pycelle actually give moon tea to Margaery or not?

[the trees have eyes]

Pycelle seemed genuinely reluctant to say, so I assume he spoke the truth: He visited Marge about moon tea. He was also cut off before he could finish his sentence, what the moon tea was for. Or who it was for. I'm pretty sure it wasn't to keep Marge's belly flat. Might well have been for one of her girls.

I have always thought this. Margaery is pretty astute and she knows that infidelity as queen consort is treason. It is a high stakes activity for her to engage in and while it is high stakes for the other Tyrell girls - it would be much harder to make an appropriate marriage for them (see the Florent girl Robert" deflowered") - it is still considerably less so. And how would Pycelle know who it was really for?

[im317]

i cant find the text of it but when Loras is injured on Dragonstone Margaery sends(or suggest sending) her own maester to tend to him. why would she not have asked said maester instead of Pycelle?

its in aFfC Cersei VII, mentioned by Taena

[Don Roberto]

I have always thought this. Margaery is pretty astute and she knows that infidelity as queen consort is treason. It is a high stakes activity for her to engage in and while it is high stakes for the other Tyrell girls - it would be much harder to make an appropriate marriage for them (see the Florent girl Robert" deflowered") - it is still considerably less so. And how would Pycelle know who it was really for?

Agreed. It also does to remember that Cersei was convinced that Margaery was having a carnal relationship with Loras, of all people. She saw too much of herself in the little queen, but there may not have been anything there at all. Osney's tale that Margaery "clearly wants him" is also uncertain, could be he misread her signs, or was exaggerating his tale to please Cersei.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

My theory about this was that Margaery did consummate his marriage with Renly at some point and when he died, his family gave her the moon tea for a few months in case she got pregnant (or maybe she did) so she could conceive a child with Joffrey.

[A Crow Come Over]

i think it was part of margerys plan the whole time to screw with cersei because she knew pycelle would tell cersei which would cause her to make false accusations

[Pharnavaziani]

There are other uses for different kinds of contraceptives IRL....Pycelle was cut off before he said why exactly she wanted the moon tea, but I don't believe she'd be foolish enough to go messing around with a guy.

Didn't Cersei at least once wonder if Margaery was "like her brother"?

[jentario]

She's definitely not a maiden, but other than that who knows...

[RedBean]

I don't think Pycelle was lying. But I think Margaery is too clever to ask Pycelle for moon tea for herself. The risk was too great, especially since she wouldn't be sure where his true loyalties lie. I'm guessing that the moon tea was for one of her friends, possibly for the shy one (Alla?) who didn't want to admit to anyone that she was pregnant. I'm guessing that this might be part of her defence at the trial.

[Faint]

Whether Pycelle gave Margaery moon tea or not, the fact that he was murdered is not going to reflect well on her culpability.

[im317]

the biggest issue i have with this is why she asked Pycelle instead of her own Meister?

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

the biggest issue i have with this is why she asked Pycelle instead of her own Meister?

I'm not really sure whether Pycelle being a Lannister creature is really common knowledge to anyone other than Jaime, Cersei, and Tyrion, so the idea that Marg asked so that he would tell Cersei is a bit shaky really. I personally think that Marg would never be foolish enough to ask him while supposedly a maiden, even if it's for someone else. So the most likely scenarios are Pycelle lied to gain favor with Cersei after sort of being half shunned, which is totally in character for him, or Margaery totally erred which is very much not in character for her.

[HopeForSpring]

Cercei accuses Pycelle of conspiring with Marg. to kill Ser Gyles and then....

“Your Grace, I swear to you, Lord Gyles perished from his cough.” His mouth was quivering. “My loyalty has always been to the crown, to the realm . . . t-to House Lannister.”

In that order? Pycelle’s fear was palpable. He is ripe enough. Time to squeeze the fruit and taste the juice. “If you are as leal as you claim, why are you lying to me? Do not trouble to deny it. You began to dance attendance on Maid Margaery before Ser Loras went to Dragonstone, so spare me further fables about how you want only to console our good-daughter in her grief. What brings you to the Maidenvault so often? Not Margaery’s vapid conversation, surely? Are you courting that pox-faced septa of hers? Diddling little Lady Bulwer? Do you play the spy for her, informing on me to serve her plots?”

“I . . . I obey. A maester takes an oath of service . . .”

“A grand maester swears to serve the realm.”

“Your Grace, she . . . she is the queen . . .”

“I am the queen.”

“I meant . . . she is the king’s wife, and . . .”

“I know who she is. What I want to know is why she has need of you. Is my good-daughter unwell?”

“Unwell?” The old man plucked at the thing he called a beard, that patched growth of thin white hair sprouting from the loose pink wattles under his chin. “N-not unwell, Your Grace, not as such. My oaths forbid me to divulge . . .”

“Your oaths will be of small comfort in the black cells,” she warned him. “I’ll hear the truth, or you’ll wear chains.”

Pycelle collapsed to his knees. “I beg you . . . I was your lord father’s man, and a friend to you in the matter of Lord Arryn. I could not survive the dungeons, not again . . .”

“Why does Margaery send for you?”

“She desires . . . she . . . she . . .” “Say it!” He cringed. “Moon tea,” he whispered. “Moon tea, for . . .”

“I know what moon tea is for.” There it is. “Very well. Get off those saggy knees and try to remember what it was to be a man.” Pycelle struggled to rise, but took so long about it that she had to tell Osmund Kettleblack to give him another yank. “As to Lord Gyles, no doubt our Father Above will judge him justly. He left no children?”

... Lady M. goes on to wonder why she would risk it, Cercei says because Marg.'s clearly got needs ( in her thoughts - that Renly awakened in her ) and goes on to plot with OK to have him become Marg's Lov-vah

The big question is what was supposed to come after "for..." was it "for..." one of her lady's or was he going to explain it's use as Cercei jumped to.

It does seem weird that Marg didn't call her own Maester... maybe he was missing a herb needed, who knows... I agree it does seem odd.

[Ygrain]

Things really don't seem to add up. Marge was schooled by Olenna, and clever according to her. I doubt she would trust anyone in KL except her own people, so unless she was scheming against Cersei and it backfired, she wouldn't do anything so blatantly improper as asking for moon tea, not even for another person. On the other hand, Pycelle got the idea from somewhere, and I wonder if this could be from Varys to drive a wedge between the Tyrells and Lannisters. Pycelle would have been an easy target for blackmailing, and killing him is basically killing two birds with one stone - he can't reveal Varys' involvemenent, and it makes Tyrells look guilty.

[Arya Ready?]

Well, for what it's worth, I believe that Pycelle is telling the truth, that he did treat Margaery with moon tea for birth control. To me he believably seems to resist confessing the act to Cersei. In fact, I take the entire situation at face value. I think that Margaery is having surreptitious sex with some guy or guys whose identity we have yet to learn. Why doesn't she ask her own maester for the birth control? I don't know. A stupid mistake on Margaery's part (trusting in the confidentiality vows of maesters)? Or just a necessary plot device? In any event, Cersei refuses to wait around any longer to ferret out the identity of the secret partner(s) & just forces Osney Kettleblack to confess falsely to the deed & trumps up further false charges against Margaery's cousins.

To me, this seems the simplest and most straightforward description of events. Yet it does leave the rather huge & interesting question of whom Margaery is taking the moon tea in order to have sex with.

[mrunderhill]

I don't believe Margaery is a virgin and she may have had a couple of affairs, but I don't think the Moon Tea was to be used as a contraceptive. Pycelle did what was best for the realm. He is increasingly worried about Cersei's rule and I don't think he wants the Lannister/Tyrell partnership to fall.

[A Bastard King]

The "everyone" in "everyone knows" is us. Even if Marge knew that Pycelle once was a Lannister creature, he's been since thrown into the black cells by the Lannisters, robbed of honour and dignity, only been treated with contempt by Cersei. And most of all he's the maester, complete with their oaths of not divulging their patients secrets, and trusting maesters with physical matters is just what you do. I'd say he's the obvious choice to go to.

That moon tea is something Pycelle only came up with after Cersei dropped enough hints seems doubtful to me. For one, she doesn't seem to drop any hints that go in that direction (she only questions whether he's in Marge's employ, whether Marge ordered Pycelle to kill Gyles and such) and secondly at the very start of the conversation, before anything of the sort could have taken place, he mentioned that there are "sleeping draughts and.... other sorts of potions" he provides for Marge.

:agree: I'm currently on a re-read and literally just read the Cersei POV where she grills Pycelle I don't see any guidance towards the Moon tea more towards the killing of the Master of Coin.

In the books (I think it was Catelyn who said it) it's openly said that highborn ladies usually lose their virginity by riding horses. (Saddle I think? Dunno :dunno: )

It was Catelyn who said this. I don't think queen Marg is a maiden but it is too obvious imo for her to need the Moon tea for herself more likely imo it is for one of her ladies.

[Groat]

I'm of the opinion that Pycelle was lying for Cersei's benefit. This line specifically makes me think so:

He is ripe enough. Time to squeeze the fruit and taste the juice.

If it's a simple matter of Pycelle telling the truth, why does he need to "ripen".

Also, I'm pretty sure Pycelle being a Lannister creature is common knowledge. People know it was Pycelle who encouraged Aerys to open the gates when Tywin was at KL with his army, and of course Varys and LF will both know. Also, Tyrion was able to figure out who Pycelle was backing within a few weeks of coming to KL, coulpled with the fact that Oleanna is a competent player, the Tyrell's defintely know where Pycelle's loyalty lies.

The Tyrells are far from innocent, but in this case, I think Cersei is way off and Pycelle is lying and Marg lost her maidenhead from riding horses.

i think it was part of margerys plan the whole time to screw with cersei because she knew pycelle would tell cersei which would cause her to make false accusations

I could totally see this being true as well.

[Master Forel's Fro]

It was Catelyn who said this. I don't think queen Marg is a maiden but it is too obvious imo for her to need the Moon tea for herself more likely imo it is for one of her ladies.

Why risk the kingdom for a lady in waiting? and why use pycelle? It's more risk for a queen that's a virgin to ask for moon tea. If she needed it or for one of her ladies it would be less risky for one of them to ask for the tea. Even if there is a scandal for that girl they can arrange a good marriage for her with the tyrell power.

[danm_999]

Yeah the whole thing stinks.

Even if Margaery doesn't know how much of a Lannister creature Pycelle is, why ask him and not Maester Ballabar, the Maester brought from the Reach the Tyrells trust?

Hell, why would Margaery ever ask anyone herself? Surely she knows how it looks if the Queen with the husband too young to consumate asks for moon tea? Why wasn't a flunky sent to acquire it?

[A Bastard King]

Why risk the kingdom for a lady in waiting? and why use pycelle? It's more risk for a queen that's a virgin to ask for moon tea. If she needed it or for one of her ladies it would be less risky for one of them to ask for the tea. Even if there is a scandal for that girl they can arrange a good marriage for her with the tyrell power.

True.

Also

Marg could of also requested purposely to get to Cersei as she knew Cersei would accuse her of something, thus bringing Cersei's illic behaviour into common knowledge.... I've read this on other posts and it does seem a strong possibility to me.