So did Pycelle actually give moon tea to Margaery or not?

[jentario]

I actually hope that he didn't.

In TV-show there is the feeling, that Margaery is not a virgin, but in books, I could vow that she's a virgin.

It just seemed to me, that Pycelle said that moon tea thing just to please Cersei. Not because it was the truth.

But, we will find out it likely in the next book, so GRRM hurry the f*ck up!

But didn't the High Sparrow have his women test her fit it and identify that she had already lost her virginity? He would not be lying and his motivations are very different from Cersei's. I doubt Marge is a virgin, whether or not Pycelle was lying and whether or not Marge was using the Moon Tea herself. Unless they find out they made a mistake while examining her vagina, I doubt she's a virgin.

And I agree GRRM should hurry the f*ck up. I need my fix bad, really bad. Like a junkie needs crack :(

[Colonel Green]

But didn't the High Sparrow have his women test her fit it and identify that she had already lost her virginity? He would not be lying and his motivations are very different from Cersei's. I doubt Marge is a virgin, whether or not Pycelle was lying and whether or not Marge was using the Moon Tea herself. Unless they find out they made a mistake while examining her vagina, I doubt she's a virgin.

Cersei herself noted that highborn girls would quite often break their hymens while horseback riding.

[manting]

What we know 1) Margery is not a virgin - we know this because a septa and pycelle both inspect her and both say she is not intact. 2) Pycelle says he gave Margery moontea - we don't know whether she actually drank it or not. What we don't know 1) how Margery lost her virginity 2) why she would ask Pycelle for moon tea. We do know her family and herself swore that she was a virgin. We also know that she visited the septry during the virgin special day or whatever its called. For a non virgin to do this is a crime. She is facing an upcoming trial where I believe we will learn the truth (not at the actual trial but the pov's that surround it)

[jons nissa]

the answer is yes, pycelle gave her moon tea and that we don't know why since there is the implication that it is not for the usual non-pregnancy reason, or he wouldn't begin to explain for what. there is also the possibility that she got it for someone else although this seems unlikely since a rumor about her (lack of) maidenhead could spread quickly and she doesn't seem so naive.

[jons nissa]

What we know 1) Margery is not a virgin - we know this because a septa and pycelle both inspect her and both say she is not intact.

we know this? could you provide the text?

[manting]

Its in AFFC -its chapter 44 or Cersei chapter X- I dont have the book handy but that's the chapter - it wasn't one septa that examined her but 3 - pycelle doesn't exmine her - he says he doesn't need to since he has provided her with moon tea on numerous occasions.

[Starfell]

Its in AFFC -its chapter 44 or Cersei chapter X- I dont have the book handy but that's the chapter - it wasn't one septa that examined her but 3 - pycelle doesn't exmine her - he says he doesn't need to since he has provided her with moon tea on numerous occasions.

Yeah, but we've already established that a broken hymen doesn't prove someone isn't a virgin

My tuppence is that the scene really doesn't (to me) read like Pycelle is making it up because it's what he wants Cersei to hear; he's a Lannister man and if Cersei wanted him to lie about why Marge had seen him she could just command him to anyway. If he is lying then there's still the question of what he might have been giving Margaery that was so much more​ scandalous than Moon Tea that he felt Moon Tea was an acceptable cover story. But either way, I think he's telling the truth or covering, as opposed to going along with Cersei's plot.

So there are a few unanswered questions left. If Marge was getting Moon Tea, then why? Is she still a virgin or did the horse do it? If not Moon Tea then what? And why the bloody hell did she go to Pycelle of all people is she was asking for something incriminating, is this actually part of Olenna's maneuvering?

I used to believe that Margaery was a pretty astute player but since the scene where she's imprisoned and reveals that she didn't even realise that Cersei was gunning for her I'm starting to think she's as naive as she appears but even then she shouldn't be dumb enough to go to Pycelle. Plus, if she is using Moon Tea for its contraceptive properties then why does Cersei have to frame people? The number of men who have the sort of access to the Queen that they could be her lover is pretty small, one would think that it would be easier to catch a real lover, if they existed, than manufacture one through false confessions

[manting]

if she is "broken" then she is not a virgin. It doesn't matter if it was from sex or horseback riding. She, her father, and several other family members swore to her virginity (being "intact"). Her cousins were also found to be broken. When combined with the accusations and the trial she is in trouble no matter what.

[Crannogman Pride]

My opinion is the same as one posted in the compendium of theories pinned up top: that Margaery is a virgin and her maidenhead is intact.

The septa who announces that she is broken is the HS tool. The goal is to lure Cercei to the Great Sept. Once they found Marg to be a virgin, doubt fell on her accuser, Osney. He was then brutally tortured to find out why he lied. He spills everything about Cercei.

About the moon tea, that could have been a trap, set to lure Cercei into thinking Marg was no virgin. But I bet she just used moon tea to balance her hormones or something.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Hymen's are frequently and easy broken when horseback riding. Margarey was an avid rider.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

My opinion is the same as one posted in the compendium of theories pinned up top: that Margaery is a virgin and her maidenhead is intact.

The septa who announces that she is broken is the HS tool. The goal is to lure Cercei to the Great Sept. Once they found Marg to be a virgin, doubt fell on her accuser, Osney. He was then brutally tortured to find out why he lied. He spills everything about Cercei.

About the moon tea, that could have been a trap, set to lure Cercei into thinking Marg was no virgin. But I bet she just used moon tea to balance her hormones or something.

:agree:

[Dead Wolf]

I think the moon tea was for one of Marge's cousins and Cersei cut him off before he could say it

[Lost Melnibonean]

I just read the key passage again and it sure felt like Pycelle was confessing rather than giving Cersei what he thinks she wants. And I know we're led to believe that Margaery's hymen was ... um ... popped while riding but I just noticed that Margaery's septa Nysterica was confined to a penitemt's cell for her part in the queen's shame. Should we assume the Faith confined her as part of the conspiracy or should we suspect she might have incriminated Margaery? Or I guess it's possible the Faith are sufficiently convinced of Margaery's adultery that the they're punishing for not preventing it? Oh, and one more thing to consider is that Nysterica appears to be Jon Arrynvs neice. Any thoughts?

[Lady Ly]

The way I see it, there are two schools of thought here: Pycelle is either being honest or dishonest - Marg either asked him for the moon tea or she didn't. To help me keep the theories straight, I compiled the list below:

PYCELLE IS TELLING THE TRUTH THEORIES:

1. Margaery is sleeping around and needed moon tea as birth control

SUPPORT:

1. Pycelle seemed reluctant to foreswear his confidentiality vows
2. Margaery’s maidenhood is no longer in tact
3. Pycelle sticks to his claims even when Cersei is imprisoned

OPPOSITION:

1. Why wouldn’t she ask her own maester?
2. She seems too smart and goal-oriented to commit careless treason

1. Margaery was asking for moon tea for one of her ladies

SUPPORT:

1. Margaery is brave and compassionate, her ladies mean a lot to her and she’s trying to protect them
2. Pycelle didn’t finish his sentence “moon tea, for…” so he could have gone on to elaborate a different use

​OPPOSITION:

1. Why wouldn’t she ask her own maester?
2. It’s a way higher risk for the queen to seek birth control than for one of her ladies

1. Margaery was using moon tea as plan-B for possible Renly baby, or for other miscellaneous health reasons

SUPPORT:

1. Explains why she’d need it, but without having committed treason
2. Explains hasty weddings to Lannister boys
3. Margaery’s maidenhood is no longer in tact

OPPPOSITION:

1. Renly is homoesexual, they probably never slept together
2. Renly happened long enough ago that this seems like a stretch
3. The books never allude to use of moon tea for any reasons other than birth control
4. Why wouldn’t she ask her own maester?

1. Asking for moon tea was a Tyrell plot to expose Cersei

SUPPORT:

1. Tyrells are cunning, trying to gain power and muscle Cersei out
2. Explains why Margaery didn’t ask her own maester

OPPOSITION:

1. Too high-risk for the Tyrells, especially for Margaery who really wants to be queen (no matter the result of the trial, this will color the Tyrell’s reputation for a long time)
2. This scheme puts Margaery’s life at stake with a lot of room for possible error

PYCELLE IS NOT TELLING THE TRUTH THEORIES:

1. Cersei pushed and bullied Pycelle into lying about the moon tea

SUPPORT:

1. Would explain his stammering and reluctance (was trying to figure out what Cersei wanted from him)
2. We have seen Cersei do this before, to other men
3. Maybe Pycelle was frightened because he actually had been spending a lot of time with the Tyrells, maybe even considering changing his alliance, and jumped at the chance for redemption when called out

OPPOSITION:

1. Pycelle sticks to his claims even when Cersei is imprisoned
2. Pycelle has been shown to be secretly quite self-assured and competent – would he really be manipulated so easily?
3. Is it too much of a coincidence that Pycelle arrived at moon tea, just as Cersei wanted?
4. This could have potentially been a great risk for Pycelle to lie, if it wasn’t exactly what Cersei wanted to hear.
   

2. ​Pycelle is being bribed or threatened by Varys to lie about the moon tea

SUPPORT:

1. Varys tells dying Kevan Lannister he wants a rift between the Lannisters and Tyrells, in which case this conspiracy totally succeeded
2. Maybe Varys kills Pycelle at the end of ADWD to silence him
3. Putting both queens on trial weakens the grip on the iron throne, making way for Aegon (as Varys clearly wants)

OPPOSITION:

1. Now that Pycelle is dead and Varys on-the-run, there are limited ways for this conspiracy to surface in the story or even for the readers
2. Who did Varys expect to take over once Cersei was imprisoned? Probably wasn’t Kevan, since he then murdered him. Or did he not expect her to act the way she did, thus exposing herself? Did he only mean to cause a silent rift, plant a seed of doubt? Either way, if this was a conspiracy it seems to have gone askew, which is unconventional for Varys. His plots are usually brilliantly executed with all variables accounted for.

I think it's HIGHLY unlikely that the Tyrells would risk their most precious commodities - Margaery's well being and their good reputation throughout Westeros - just for the chance to get Cersei out of the picture. I don't believe Pycelle is telling the truth because it would be a huge oversight for Marg to ask him. I think the strongest possibilities are that Pycelle was either pressured by Cersei to lie, or he's lying at the command of someone else (Varys) trying to drive a wedge between the Tryrells and Lannisters.

[Michael Herman]

Cersei thinks latter on that there is only one use for moon tea, saying that maidens have no need of it, but is that true though? I mean the contraceptive pill in real life has other uses right?

[Winnief]

1. Who did Varys expect to take over once Cersei was imprisoned? Probably wasn’t Kevan, since he then murdered him. Or did he not expect her to act the way she did, thus exposing herself? Did he only mean to cause a silent rift, plant a seed of doubt? Either way, if this was a conspiracy it seems to have gone askew, which is unconventional for Varys. His plots are usually brilliantly executed with all variables accounted for.

Note that he didn't murder Kevan until after Cersei's walk of shame. That walk of shame left it (as Kevan noted,) impossible for Cersei to rule in KL, and further tarnishes the Lannister name-from that perspective, if Varys was trying to hurt the Lannister/Tyrrell coalition he succeeded admirably...all he had to do was make sure the responsible adults, were no longer allowed to clean up Cersei's mess-which he did.

But it might not have been his plot, anyway, just a situation he was happy to exploit.

And yeah, I wouldn't trust Pycelle's word here; Margery may or may not be a virgin, but she sure as hell hasn't been sleeping with anyone recently, or word WOULD have gotten out, the way Cersei had her watched. Pycelle wouldn't hesitate to lie if it furthered the Lannister's ends,(though, Cersei must have left him second guessing that allegiance) and not changing his story after Cersei's imprisonment would have been to avoid being publicly known as a liar and perjurer-thus ending his career. He might have had trouble sticking to his claims at Margery's trial though,-or someone could have disproven them-and then the whole game would have been up so Pycelle had to go.

[Holy R'holler]

I believe Marge is a maiden and the whole horseriding thing is well established.

I think it is most likely that Margeary had the moon tea for some other mecidinal purpose but I can't remember another use being mentioned in the books.

My other theory is that Margaery was getting moon tea and various other things for the smallpeople of KL. Her charity work is mentioned often in the books and with winter coming many of the small folk may not want another mouth to feed or perhaps was supplying it to brothels. Maybe she was trying to set up a KL free clinic or something. I think this would explain why Pycelle was visiting often and why she went to the maester of KL instead of her own.

[finger]

GRRM loves to leave some unsolved mysteies, and I'm afraid it's be one of those.

Pycelle is dead and I doubt Cersei's in a position to question anyone.

OTOH, do you think there'll be Margaerys' trial?

At the end of ADWD, Cersei's trial by duel was to be in a few days time. I guess the Tyrrells will allow it to happen, since it's a win/win to them.

1. It forces Cersei to bring about a freak as Robert Strong. I don't thing it's good to her already damaged image.

2. Should RS prevail, the Tyrrells could blame the HS for falsehood, and having humilliated the king's mother through torture.

3. Should he lose, the HS would harm Cersei further, even kill her. This takes Cersei out of the game, anyway. And she's still the king's mother.

Anyhow, Tarly is going to have the excuse to avoid the promise of handing Margaery, that he never meant to honour: he'll be avenging the poor sweet child king.

I had thought that Jaime would burn the High Sept with the sparrows inside. I'm increasingly thinking that Tarly will arrive to it first.

After all, Tarly had promised to hand Margaery, I don't think he promised to kill the High Septon right on. I can imagine him escorting Margaery to the High Sept at the head of his host, and telling sort of: "Here's the queen, get out and take her. Alone." Two possibilities:

1. The HS does as bid. In the moment he puts his hands on her: "I never promised not to kill you."

2. He doesn't. "My promise is accomplished, it's you who refuse to take her. "

In both cases, to his host: "To our king's mother memory, burn the place down."

[teemo]

I am totally split on this. I see both sides. Pycelle didn't strike me as lying and I'm not particularly sure what he would have gotten out of lying, but at the same time I can't imagine Margaery going to Pycelle or furthermore anyone for moon tea (just send someone else in her place). So I'm really confused about this one still. TV show Marg is really obviously not a virgin, but that doesn't necessarily prove anything at all book-related. It is interesting though.

[chamberleezy]

If IIRC Moon Tea is like Westerosi birth control and can be used to relieve menstrual cramps not just abort babies