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So did Pycelle actually give moon tea to Margaery or not?


Underzaker

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I'm going with no. Margery was married to Renley, enough said. She was married to Joffrey, marriage, as far as we know, never had the bedding ceremony. Cersei even mentioned that most high born girls lost their maidenhead to their horses. Evil rumor spread by Cersei. Margery wants to be queen, so she would not jeopardize her virtue. Pycell went with the moon tea because Cersei told him to. He is a Lannister Maester.


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Didn't read the whole thread so I don't know if its been mentioned, but I got the strong impression from the show that she wasn't a virgin. She has a scene with sansa talking about how to learn to please a man in bed and all that, and sansa replys "Did your mother teach you all that!?", and Marge hesitates and says "yes..my mother taught me" with a smile on her face implying she thinks its sweet how innocent sansa is.


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I think something that becomes more clear when reexamining AFFC is that Cersei isn't completely off base in seeing the Tyrells as a threat, or even in her suspicions about conspiracies around her. They killed her son, after all. She just takes the paranoia way too far, largely because of her obsession with the prophecy, and shoots herself in the foot.


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Things really don't seem to add up. Marge was schooled by Olenna, and clever according to her. I doubt she would trust anyone in KL except her own people, so unless she was scheming against Cersei and it backfired, she wouldn't do anything so blatantly improper as asking for moon tea, not even for another person. On the other hand, Pycelle got the idea from somewhere, and I wonder if this could be from Varys to drive a wedge between the Tyrells and Lannisters. Pycelle would have been an easy target for blackmailing, and killing him is basically killing two birds with one stone - he can't reveal Varys' involvemenent, and it makes Tyrells look guilty.

:agree:

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Pycelle definitely gave her moon tea, the way George wrote it makes it clear hat's true. I always figured it was for heavy periods or something completely non-sex related.

So there are a few unanswered questions left. If Marge was getting Moon Tea, then why? Is she still a virgin or did the horse do it?

Lolwut?

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Margeary's trial will fascinate us because it deals directly with the vagina.





Maybe Margaery likes the taste of moon tea. She chugs the stuff in secret so that no one will judge her.





I grew up around someone who sometimes drinks TheraFlu when he's not sick with the flu, just because of the lemony goodness and because most years there's one package of flu tea left after flu season is over and you don't want the expiration date to expire on it. Alright it's me, but 'tis a victimless crime. until someone drags you into court and puts you under oath and starts fishing for anything that makes you sound untrustworthy.




I assumed Pycelle was truthful and gave up Margeary to save his own man-gina, same as usual with him. Didn't really consider Margie may have been covering for one of her ladies, like a boss.



About the Ygrain quote two posts above: maybe Margie was being "smart" in a different way--perhaps she was too embarrassed (scared) to go to anyone in Tyrell circles for the tea because the Thorny Queen mum made it clear she expects Margeary to lock down her urges for the time being. "For the family's sake, you will not indulge your lusts. I want you to BE the freakin' saint you're pretending to be. The best way to fool people into seeing you as a saint is to actually be a saint for real while everything is riding on this marraige sticking. There'll be time for affairs later in calmer years after the boy has learned to love and trust you, when he'll be loathe to set you aside just because his mother says to. So keep it in your skirt till then." If that conversation took place, Margeary is being smart to go to Pycelle when she wants to be dumb with someone.


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Another possibility, at least with regards to a broken hymen, is that she had been cheating on Renly (possibly even with his knowledge - it's a plausible theory that a gay man who marries a woman as a cover for his own homosexuality might well accept her seeking "amusement" elsewhere as long as she makes sure not to actually get a baby or a disease.) This, of course, would not explain any *recent* need for moon tea, since it's been long enough after the Blackwater that any child conceived at the wrong time would be showing by now.

Yet another possibility is that she and Joffrey, shall we say, anticipated their wedding somewhat (with or without Margaery's consent), and the moon tea is because she doesn't want to risk having a child of Joffrey's, having seen the monster he is, but who would dare say that while Cersei is still alive and in court?

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Didn't read the whole thread so I don't know if its been mentioned, but I got the strong impression from the show that she wasn't a virgin. She has a scene with sansa talking about how to learn to please a man in bed and all that, and sansa replys "Did your mother teach you all that!?", and Marge hesitates and says "yes..my mother taught me" with a smile on her face implying she thinks its sweet how innocent sansa is.

Considering Margaery's virginity is one of the biggest mysteries at the end of book 5, I think show writers are simply playing with us in that matter. The only person who knows whether the girl is intact or not is GRRM himself, and they either know as much as we do and are speculating by letting the whole thing ambiguous so it could be revealed later or were told by him.

The show implies that Margaery knows more about sex and sexuality than Sansa not that she actually practices it with men. That alone is odd for westerosi standards, as many young ladies know nothing more than lay on bed and wait for their husband to do the task. Dany is a good example on how a girl could be instructed in the "arts of love" and get not only self gratification but having the husband do what they want. If they want power, Margaery is a good way to influence a future King and they are not only instructing her to play the game of thrones but also the game of sheets ;)

Yet, that isn't absolute evidence of Margaery being sexually active with a man. As it has been pointed out before, it's too much of a risk for a girl and a family that so desperately wants her to be a Queen. If the show is indicative of any kind of clue, then we must remember that Olenna told Tywin that Highgarden has no problems with boys fooling around with other boys. One has to wonder if Loras's sexuality has somehow influenced Margaery into realising other girls are good sex partners because they won't get pregnant nor their hymens can be broken so easily and the Tyrells really don't say anything because that would actually benefit them.

Anyway, it does look like the show wants us to think Margaery has been having sex which I would say is intentional. All we know is that she told Joffrey they never consummated the marriage but this could be also a lie. By the time the show gets to the part when she's on trial Unsullied will realise they were either fooled or that they were right all along. Win-win situation for the show writers because so far they haven't been quite clear.

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He wouldn't have been so reluctant to tell Cersei if he wasn't telling the truth.

He might have been VERY reluctant to make up a lie that would make the Tyrells his sworn enemy.

Which, I might add, puts Pycelle firmly in the Lannister camp, even though he might not have liked Cercei or Tyrion. Pycelle was always and will always be a Lannister patsy in my books.

Pycelle may indeed have been a 'Lannister man' - but a man truly on the side of the Lannisters would really WANT to keep the Tyrell-Lannister alliance intact, because Tommen can't keep the throne without the Tyrells' active support (as everyone but Cersei realizes). Pycelle would have been truly reluctant to help crazy Cersei break up that alliance - but once she threatened him with the black cells again, he miserably gave in and said what she wanted - which was, IMO, a lie about the moon tea.

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I was guessing moon tea might have a second usage. Just because dear fertile Cersei has had no problems with her cycles and doesn't know about any secondary usage doesn't mean moon tea is only good for abortions. Most of the ingredients (tansy and others) in moon tea are still known today as emmenagogues, meaning they cause the flow to start. Teenagers often have irregular periods. Since GRRM borrowed many other circumstances from real life, why not this one?

And for goodness sakes, just because your hymen is broken does not mean you aren't a virgin! Losing your maidenhead to horseriding is not the same as having le sexy time with a random Kettleblack.

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  • 1 month later...

I don't think Margery is sleeping with Tommen. However if it is true I think Tommen deserves a clap on the back ;)

[...]

Too many good people have died and if an 8 year old is capable of getting it on willingly with a girl double his age good for him I say. At least it shows he's serious about producing an heir for the throne.

Ew... ikky double standard...

I think we need to remember that all this stuff is in Cersei's POV and she a crazy person who's drunk most of the time. Since GRRM has admitted to using unreliable narrators, we need to at least consider that she hears what she wants to hear at least some of the time. IMO at least half of Margery's scheming nature is in Cersei's head. She twist everything she says and always assumes malice.

I don't know... it kind of depends what you think the chances of the Tyrells pulling off the triple Baratheon marriage would be if she had had sex with Renly. Considering the positon everyone was in after the Battle of the Blackwater, I lean towards their being able to overlook it.

"Real" medieval kings tended to favour marrying virgins over widows very strongly, but there were exceptions.

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I think Pycelle was telling the truth, but what he doesn't know likely is who it was meant for. What we're not really thinking about so far is what about Margaery's side of the game-playing? Aside from whether she's a maid or not, that can be explained, she could very well have slept with Renly and no one can disprove that. However, it can also be said that the Tyrell's are aware of the fact that Cersei (at the least) is trying to subvert any moves for power the Tyrells make or happen into. It could very well be that Margaery asked Pycelle for the Moon Tea just to see how that information was used by the Lannisters. Next thing you know she's being accused, but she can just as easily say hey it was for my cousin, etc.



Of course, it might not be that way at all and could just be that she's been getting her freak on since the boy can't 'come into her castle' as it were. I tend to think that it was written there for a reason but the delivery also is there for a reason, which is to say, it's not implicitly stated that Margaery was drinking it.


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Ew... ikky double standard...

I think we need to remember that all this stuff is in Cersei's POV and she a crazy person who's drunk most of the time. Since GRRM has admitted to using unreliable narrators, we need to at least consider that she hears what she wants to hear at least some of the time. IMO at least half of Margery's scheming nature is in Cersei's head. She twist everything she says and always assumes malice.

I don't know... it kind of depends what you think the chances of the Tyrells pulling off the triple Baratheon marriage would be if she had had sex with Renly. Considering the positon everyone was in after the Battle of the Blackwater, I lean towards their being able to overlook it.

"Real" medieval kings tended to favour marrying virgins over widows very strongly, but there were exceptions.

Totally... I wouldn't a wanted to sleep with Margaery until I was at least nine...
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I'm not really sure whether Pycelle being a Lannister creature is really common knowledge to anyone other than Jaime, Cersei, and Tyrion, so the idea that Marg asked so that he would tell Cersei is a bit shaky really. I personally think that Marg would never be foolish enough to ask him while supposedly a maiden, even if it's for someone else. So the most likely scenarios are Pycelle lied to gain favor with Cersei after sort of being half shunned, which is totally in character for him, or Margaery totally erred which is very much not in character for her.

I don't know...even Eddard Stark was able to figure this out about him. I think the Tyrells would be savvy enough to figure out his true loyalties easily enough

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