The Realm will be best off with Stannis as King

[W.Kane]

Well yes, Stannis is a man of honor. Also he's experienced and brave. He has only a few weaknesses, but they can be fateful to him.

First, he's not sympathetic nor pleasant. Not at all.

Second, he's manipulated by Melisandre. That woman can make him do anything she likes.

Lastly, if he wins the Iron Throne, all folk must give up on their faith and start to worship R'hllor. That's just not cool.

your first point is valid , he is not a very pleasant person and he is a little bit harsh (not ruthless) .

you second point , not so much . he has refused Mel, countless times . Davos and Mel are his advisers , he sometimes agrees with them , sometimes , no.

your third point is totally wrong . first he is not a fanatical believer of Rhllor , second : half of his men don't believe in the Lord of light , and he has done nothing about it.

[W.Kane]

Stannis is not, nor has ever been a perfect man or ruler. But compared with the other choices for rulers, he looks like a damn saint.

:lol: ...... :agree: .

[TheCrannogDweller]

it is not about the civil war , it is about who has the right to have it . Stannis sees himself as the rightful heir , he sees it as a duty to take the throne and rule.

Right. So the more important thing is that he gets what is his, not to serve the realm in the best possible way. Got it.

he could have stayed at DragonStone or Storms End , he could have gone to the free cities or ....

In the first case he would've been as good as dead, and in the second he would become the a beggar king like Viserys. So no, he didn't have any other viable choices.

[Nictarion]

how about both Stannis and Renly put off their crowns and take the black so Joffery can rule in peace?!! and Robb joins them in the way north , here three great lords added to the nights watch! good idea , right?

it is not about the civil war , it is about who has the right to have it . Stannis sees himself as the rightful heir , he sees it as a duty to take the throne and rule. he is doing what he thinks is best for the realm.

he could have stayed at DragonStone or Storms End , he could have gone to the free cities or ....

And how would doing any of that help him win the throne? He went north because it was the only option that would help HIS cause.

[W.Kane]

Right. So the more important thing is that he gets what is his, not to serve the realm in the best possible way. Got it.

funny you ignored the second part of my post.

"it is not about the civil war , it is about who has the right to have it . Stannis sees himself as the rightful heir , he sees it as a duty to take the throne and rule. he is doing what he thinks is best for the realm."

In the first case he would've been as good as dead, and in the second he would become the a beggar king like Viserys. So no, he didn't have any other viable choices.

no he wouldn't , he was there for months and he was pretty much alive. they (Lannister and Tyrells ) attacked dragonstone only after he had sailed for north and left a very small garrison there.

a beggar king is better that a dead king . if just one thing had gone wrong , he would have been crushed by the vastly larger army of the widlings.

[W.Kane]

And how would doing any of that help him win the throne? He went north because it was the only option that would help HIS cause.

he could have stayed there and find another one with kings blood to wake the dragon or he could have gone to free cities , in hope someday he may be able to raise enough men.

I don't think going north with 1500 knights to fight a vastly larger army was the best option at that time.

[Nictarion]

he could have stayed there and find another one with kings blood to wake the dragon or he could have gone to free cities , in hope someday he may be able to raise enough men.

I don't think going north with 1500 knights to fight a vastly larger army was the best option at that time.

It was about the reward being worth the risk. Stannis has absolutely no chance without the North.

[Lady of Castamere]

Where does one get the idea that Stannis is a man of honour? A man of honour wouldn't have fled KL leaving Robert and Renly at the Lannister's mercy, nor would a man of honour consider burning a child alive.

Eta, replying to:

E

Well, The Great Walrus' answer is almost the same as I had in mind.

The answer to your question is in your message. He considered to burn and innocent child alive, but he didn't.

It's true that he abandoned his brother and is responsible for other's death. That is answer to my second argument, that he's manipulated by Melisandre.

[TheCrannogDweller]

he is doing what he thinks is best for the realm."

Prolonging a civil war that would kill thousands of people is what was best for the realm? Sure.

no he wouldn't , he was there for months and he was pretty much alive. they (Lannister and Tyrells ) attacked dragonstone only after he had sailed for north and left a very small garrison there.

Stannis' decision to go North had absolutely no influence on the Lannisters' decision to attack Dragonstone. They just needed time to assemble their attack force.

I don't think going north with 1500 knights to fight a vastly larger army was the best option at that time.

That's pretty much all the army he had. And yes, the best thing he could do with it was go North, because:

a/ no one expected him there;

b/ there was a power vacuum there, which came in quite handy to him;

c/ he was facing 20 000 undisciplined and poorly armed people, of which maybe only a half were warriors

[Jonathan Condon]

TheCrannogDweller your wasting your time you wont convince the stannis lovers that there wrong this is an endless circle, both sides have some points personally disagree he would not be a good king due to his personality and his actions no one would accept him, people generally dislike him he burns people alive for a foreign religion i dont think worshippers of the seven would take this lightly. Hes also pissed of the northerns by burning the godswood in Stormsend personally see no reason why the north would favor stannis over on or why the south would favor stannis over Faegon or Tommen must admit though hes iron view about justice might be what the south needs but whatever right...

[Lady of Castamere]

your first point is valid , he is not a very pleasant person and he is a little bit harsh (not ruthless) .

you second point , not so much . he has refused Mel, countless times . Davos and Mel are his advisers , he sometimes agrees with them , sometimes , no.

your third point is totally wrong . first he is not a fanatical believer of Rhllor , second : half of his men don't believe in the Lord of light , and he has done nothing about it.

Your first point: I agree, of course. :D

Your second point: I somehow agree too. He has been skeptic all the time. My grounds to this argument is Renly's murder. I think he wouldn't had done that without Melisandre's persuasion. This makes me of course think, that is my first argument valid after all.

Your third point: I quite agree. He hasn't point out specific love or even affection to R'hllor, but he's presence and approval to the burnings of The Seven's statues is enough to notice that he has adopted this religion to himself. I also remember that is some book, Melisandre, Selyse or even Stannis said, that when Stannis (or he himself) wins the Iron Throne, everyone must adopt this one true religion to themselves too.

I'm sorry, I don't read Anglophone books, so it's impossible to give you the pedantic quote, but I still believe, that someone has said this in some point. Correct me if I'm wrong please. :leaving:

Also: I made this message from the information I've had from AGOT to AFFC. I haven't read ADWD yet, because it haven't been translated to my language yet. :crying:

(And I'm also terribly sorry for my English. I really tried my best, but these sentences and words are hard!)

[mcb]

it is not about the civil war , it is about who has the right to have it . Stannis sees himself as the rightful heir , he sees it as a duty to take the throne and rule. he is doing what he thinks is best for the realm.

:bs:

By his own free admission, he did not. By his own free admission, he thought about what was owed to him, until Davos introduced the concepts of "realm" and "duty" to him late in ASOS; a long time after Storm's End, after the Blackwater, when his game of thrones was all but finished.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

He considered to burn and innocent child alive, but he didn't.

He didn't burn an innocent child because the child was taken away from him. That's not the same as being tempted and then saying, no, this is not right.

[W.Kane]

It was about the reward being worth the risk. Stannis has absolutely no chance without the North.

the reward? what reward ? he is still fighting while vastly outnumbered and starving and freezing! , most of the northmen have ignored him despite his help saving the NW and taking DWM. some of the northmen have betrayed him . he still to get his reward!

and I don't thinks he went north only for the reward , the reward was part of it but his priority was saving the realm.

[W.Kane]

Prolonging a civil war that would kill thousands of people is what was best for the realm? Sure.

he didn't start nor Prolonged that war , he actually dealt with Renly very quick and marched on KL to take it and finish the war , it was Tyrells betrayal that prevented him. He would have won if not for the storm , Tyrells and bad luck .go and blame them. LOL

Stannis' decision to go North had absolutely no influence on the Lannisters' decision to attack Dragonstone. They just needed time to assemble their attack force.

it definitely did have influence . he left only 200 men there , he could hold it against very larger army with his 2000 men. The iron throne wasn’t in the good shape to risk attacking him if he had all his men in DS.

That's pretty much all the army he had. And yes, the best thing he could do with it was go North, because:

a/ no one expected him there;

b/ there was a power vacuum there, which came in quite handy to him;

c/ he was facing 20 000 undisciplined and poorly armed people, of which maybe only a half were warriors

a: right

b: right

c: not so much. as I said before if only one single thing had gone wrong , he and his army would have been smashed completely.

It wasn’t an easy battle , actually it was kind of impossible to win , He won that war because of these :

Luck + plot armor! + excellent timing + excellent strategy + surprise attack

[W.Kane]

By his own free admission, he did not. By his own free admission, he thought about what was owed to him, until Davos introduced the concepts of "realm" and "duty" to him late in ASOS; a long time after Storm's End, after the Blackwater, when his game of thrones was all but finished.

“Why would you want it, then?” Davos asked him.

“It is not a question of wanting. The throne is mine, as Robert’s heir. That is law. After me, it must pass to my daughter, unless Selyse should finally give me a son.” He ran three fingers lightly down the table, over the layers of smooth hard varnish, dark with age. “I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother.

“Edric -” he started.

“ - is one boy! He may be the best boy who ever drew breath and it would not matter. My duty is to the realm.” His hand swept across the Painted Table. “How many boys dwell in Westeros? How many girls? How many men, how many women? The darkness will devour them all, she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies... a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone... she speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?” He ground his teeth. “We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must... we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty

these are all before that Davos reminded him of his duty in here:

“I have never pretended elsewise. I know the seas and rivers, the shapes of the coasts, where the rocks and shoals lie. I know hidden coves where a boat can land unseen. And I know that a king protects his people, or he is no king at all.”

[W.Kane]

Your first point: I agree, of course.

Your second point: I somehow agree too. He has been skeptic all the time. My grounds to this argument is Renly's murder. I think he wouldn't had done that without Melisandre's persuasion. This makes me of course think, that is my first argument valid after all.

Your third point: I quite agree. He hasn't point out specific love or even affection to R'hllor, but he's presence and approval to the burnings of The Seven's statues is enough to notice that he has adopted this religion to himself. I also remember that is some book, Melisandre, Selyse or even Stannis said, that when Stannis (or he himself) wins the Iron Throne, everyone must adopt this one true religion to themselves too.

I'm sorry, I don't read Anglophone books, so it's impossible to give you the pedantic quote, but I still believe, that someone has said this in some point. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

Also: I made this message from the information I've had from AGOT to AFFC. I haven't read ADWD yet, because it haven't been translated to my language yet.

(And I'm also terribly sorry for my English. I really tried my best, but these sentences and words are hard!)

first: no problem here!

second : actually I'm not convinced that he knew about Mel's plan to begin with! from the texts it appears that he didn't know.

third : I don't remember but maybe I'm mistaking.

and don't worry, my English will get the gold cup (or crap cup) for being the crappiest! in this forum. LOL

[Maegor the Cuddly]

Stannis is not, nor has ever been a perfect man or ruler. But compared with the other choices for rulers, he looks like a damn saint.

Not that the title is hard to achieve in this universe...

[TheCrannogDweller]

it definitely did have influence . he left only 200 men there , he could hold it against very larger army with his 2000 men. The iron throne wasn’t in the good shape to risk attacking him if he had all his men in DS.

Maybe I should've been clearer. I meant that 200 or 5000, his men would've been besieged at Dragonstone, with no exit strategy and no distant ally to come and lift the siege. Therefore, had he stayed at Dragonstone, he would've eventually either starved to death or been taken out by Loras' attack force.

And going to Essos would've been an abdication.

His only choice was the North and Davos had to point it out to him, because he was too busy brooding.

[Maegor the Cuddly]

Maybe I should've been clearer. I meant that 200 or 5000, his men would've been besieged at Dragonstone, with no exit strategy and no distant ally to come and lift the siege. Therefore, had he stayed at Dragonstone, he would've eventually either starved to death or been taken out by Loras' attack force.

And going to Essos would've been an abdication.

His only choice was the North and Davos had to point it out to him, because he was too busy brooding.

As far as I know, wasn't the message from the NW kept from him by the previous Hand? That's what I got...

Anyways, you realize that you'd have to land your army on the island first to siege it, Dragonstone has farms and fisheries there to support the army if blockaded. And the perfect opportunity to catch an enemy army off-guard is when they're still getting off the boats and getting organized. All Stannis would have to do is wait for a good 1/3 of their men to get off the ships, start trying to organize their gear and themselves, send in the light cavalry to scatter them.

And not necessarily, it's not exactly taboo for a ruler to go to the East to rally swords to his cause, (SPOILER Jason Massey suggests it to Stannis in the Theon preview chapter. Stannis refused because it would make him look cowardly and that he'd rather let his generals fight his War in the North for him.)