There are No Lemon Trees in Braavos (questioning Dany's childhood)

[Mdoggy]

Red door.... hmmm....

Maybe she was at a temple dedicated to R'holler.

It would go with the whole prince who was promised thing. but if she was there i dont know why they would have been kicked out

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Yeah, totally idiotic, why would rich people put trees in their gardens... i mean, boy... that's almost as idiotic as building a palace...

Obviously, everything can be done. It's a world of magic.

But, the text has spent a great deal of time telling us that it can't be done.

Dany has memories of a lemon tree and running through fields....in Braavos.

Quaithe tells Dany to remember who she is.

We find Braavos is cold, crammed city filled with canals and has no lemon trees.

Something is up.

Now, let's suppose the most likely: that Viserys and Dany actually grew up in Dorne, where lemons trees are famous, under the close watch of Oberyn. And let's say that during Jon Arryn visit to talk to Oberyn, Jon Arryn saw them and that's why no one ever talks about Jon Arryn's trip to Dorne. And let's say Jon Arryn didn't want them killed (because he's not a monster), but demanded they be abandoned, which explains Viserys and Dany's sudden begger lifestyle. And let's suppose Viserys and Dany needed to believe they lived in Braavos because of the Braavos Pact.

Except, it doesn't explain what Viserys gets out of it. Why would he lie about growing up in Braavos? Viserys is the piece that doesn't fit in the puzzle.

[Consigliere]

It's just that its hammered home so much, over and over. Braavos = cold weather, no trees.

In fact, in the TWoW Mercy chapter, there is whole conversation about there being no citrus trees.

I can think of plenty of reasons why someone would want to trick Dany into thinking she had a different childhood (for example, the Braavos pact), but I just don't understand why Viserys would lie about it.

If Viserys knew about the Braavos Pact, he would have gone to Dorne.

If he didn't, then he is telling Dany they grew up in Braavos for a different reason.

The thing is there are trees in Braavos on the slopes. The "no trees in Braavos" argument is not accurate. Also, The Wall lies much further north than Braavos yet we have The Haunted Forest beyond The Wall.

In the sample chapter, I would hardly consider two Lannister guardsmen as experts.

Furthermore we are told that trees decorate the gardens and courts of the wealthy/mighty. If frost is an issue these trees could be potted and then brought inside when it gets colder. If a wealthy person wants a citrus tree, he/she will find a way to get one.

According to Dany they were chased out of the house after Darry's death. The pact was signed when Dany was a little girl and Darry was still alive. So if they were in Dorne and Viserys was betrothed to Arianne, why would they be chased away and left to their own devices roaming the Free Cities? That does not make sense if they were already in Dorne.

[Sylva Santagar]

According to Dany they were chased out of the house after Darry's death. The pact was signed when Dany was a little girl and Darry was still alive. So if they were in Dorne and Viserys was betrothed to Arianne, why would they be chased away and left to their own devices roaming the Free Cities? That does not make sense if they were already in Dorne.

Exactly.

Trees that actually can STOMACH the climate, yes. There are plenty nice things growing north of King's Landing.

Please, use your brain.

Thanks for the great advice :D

[Scorched_Air]

Running through fields???

Ok, Braavos has no fields. Fields of water, maybe... it's like Venice, basically.

[Scorched_Air]

This Braavos-pact as a cover-up to make Viserys and Danys believe they lived in Braavos in their childhood...

That's Doran's style. Does Dorne have red doors? It's a colour that fits with Dorne (Braavos is grey and green if I remember Arya's chapters half so well).

But then we don't have to speculate about this idiotic marriage pact. It is so poorly worded that it reeks of whitewashing.

[Sylva Santagar]

Dany has memories of a lemon tree and running through fields....in Braavos.

Running through fields???

Ok, Braavos has no fields. Fields of water, maybe... it's like Venice, basically.

We talk about Dany's fever dream, right?!?

[Consigliere]

Where is this running through fields quote? The only one I could find is this one during Dany's fever dream.

“The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there.”

[Sylva Santagar]

Where is this running through fields quote? The only one I could find is this one during Dany's fever dream.

“The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there.”

Yeah, me too... that's why I asked....

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

In the sample chapter, I would hardly consider two Lannister guardsmen as experts.

Furthermore we are told that trees decorate the gardens and courts of the wealthy/mighty. If frost is an issue these trees could be potted and then brought inside when it gets colder. If a wealthy person wants a citrus tree, he/she will find a way to get one.

According to Dany they were chased out of the house after Darry's death. The pact was signed when Dany was a little girl and Darry was still alive. So if they were in Dorne and Viserys was betrothed to Arianne, why would they be chased away and left to their own devices roaming the Free Cities? That does not make sense if they were already in Dorne.

So, this conversation is dismissed because it was made by guardsmen? Why can't they be trusted about cold weather?

“Seven hells, this place is damp,” she heard her guard complain. “I’m chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?”

“Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis,” the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. “I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of King’s Landing, fool. Can’t you read a bloody map?”

GRRM has given us a specific conversation, not just about trees, but about citrus trees. And it's for no reason?

And, let's say that they were living in the home of someone powerful, why would Willem Dary's death change that? They were run out. It doesn't add up.

On the Dorne theory, they would be chased out because Jon Arryn found out about them. Remember Jon Arryn travels to Dorne because Oberyn tried to rally around Viserys.

I just can't explain why Viserys would lie.

[Sylva Santagar]

Sweetrobin, please explain first where exactly Dany has a memory of running through fields in Braavos....

Don't jump to the next wild speculations before answering the question...

[Scorched_Air]

Huh! Obviously some people here can't read a map, either! "Dumber than a Lannister guard"... must be a saying somewhere in Westeros.

[Consigliere]

So, this conversation is dismissed because it was made by guardsmen? Why can't they be trusted about cold weather?

“Seven hells, this place is damp,” she heard her guard complain. “I’m chilled to the bones. Where are the bloody orange trees? I always heard there were orange trees in the Free Cities. Lemons and limes. Pomegranates. Hot peppers, warm nights, girls with bare bellies. Where are the bare-bellied girls, I ask you?”

“Down in Lys, and Myr, and Old Volantis,” the other guard replied. He was an older man, big-bellied and grizzled. “I went to Lys with Lord Tywin once, when he was Hand to Aerys. Braavos is north of King’s Landing, fool. Can’t you read a bloody map?”

GRRM has given us a specific conversation, not just about trees, but about citrus trees. And it's for no reason?

And, let's say that they were living in the home of someone powerful, why would Willem Dary's death change that? They were run out. It doesn't add up.

On the Dorne theory, they would be chased out because Jon Arryn found out about them. Remember Jon Arryn travels to Dorne because Oberyn tried to rally around Viserys.

I just can't explain why Viserys would lie.

These two guardsmen have never been to Braavos before so what qualifies them to say there are no citrus trees in Braavos?

[FYI, please use spoiler tags if you're quoting from the sample chapter]

We are specifically told that trees decorate the courts and gardens of the wealthy.

There isn't anything to suggest they were living in someone else's home in Braavos. We do know they had treasures with them and servants, so there were not exactly living from hand to mouth at the time.

Saying they were chased out of Dorne because Jon Arryn found them is pure conjecture. Even if this is true it still does not make sense. If Viserys was betrothed to Arianne and they had to leave Dorne then why does Doran not arrange for them to have some protection at some stage? Instead they were left to their own devices roaming the Free Cities and forced to sell their last few treasures, including their mothers crown.