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There are No Lemon Trees in Braavos (questioning Dany's childhood)


yolkboy

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I wouldn't think it, if Arya and Sam's chapters in Braavos were written a year or two after GRRM first wrote about that lemon tree. But they where written, what? Ten years later?

Yes, there is room for another Jeyne's Hips mistake here.

Jeyne's hips were a physical feature of a backgroundish character.

This is subverting one of the few features we knew of Braavos before being shown it in full view and a fairly important memory from one of the most important characters in the novels. I don't think this would be a continuity error on the same scale as Jeyne's hips.

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Another poster, The Others take you I believe, already had a thread on this issue. His/her theory (which I subscribe to) is that Dany's recollection is really from her past life as Rhaegar, and the memory of the tall stone house with the red door and the lemon tree was actually her/his memory of the Tower of Joy in the marches of Dorne.

When Anguy asked the inkeep for some lemons with his dinner:

"Lemons. And where would we get lemons? Does this look like Dorne to you, you freckled fool?
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Additional support:

The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door. "...the dragon..." And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.
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Another poster, The Others take you I believe, already had a thread on this issue. His/her theory (which I subscribe to) is that Dany's recollection is really from her past life as Rhaegar, and the memory of the tall stone house with the red door and the lemon tree was actually her/his memory of the Tower of Joy in the marches of Dorne.

Additional support:

This isn't a dream she started having until Jorah told her Rhaegar was the last dragon. She has been told Rhaegar is great, and she wants to be like him. She wants to be identified as Rhaegar's sister, not Viserys' sister or Aerys' daughter.

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This isn't a dream she started having until Jorah told her Rhaegar was the last dragon. She has been told Rhaegar is great, and she wants to be like him. She wants to be identified as Rhaegar's sister, not Viserys' sister or Aerys' daughter.

This was actually the dream she had during MMD's blood ritual that resulted in the death of her unborn. Amazingly enough, the next day Dany is able to perform the fire ritual that leads to the hatching of her dragons.

Aegon V (death at Summerhall in dragon hatching ritual) leads to Rhaegar leads to Daenerys (gives the dragon hatching ritual a second try).

Full theory is here:

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This was actually the dream she had during MMD's blood ritual that resulted in the death of her unborn. Amazingly enough, the next day Dany is able to perform the fire ritual that leads to the hatching of her dragons.

Aegon V (death at Summerhall in dragon hatching ritual) leads to Rhaegar leads to Daenerys (gives the dragon hatching ritual a second try).

Full theory is here:

http://asoiaf.wester...and-targaryens/

Yes, I know when the dream was. Jorah told her well before this dream that Rhaegar was the last dragon. The words were shocking to her.

His blunt words startled her. It seemed as though all the things she had always believed were suddenly called into question.

She thinks about Jorah's comment again when she put the eggs on the brazier. Then she has the fever dream where she again thinks of Jorah telling her Rhaegar was the last dragon. She took what Jorah said literally. She thinks that some Targaryens are literally dragons and that Rhaegar was a dragon and she will be a dragon too.

ETA: Thanks for the link but I've already seen the thread plus several others of yours. Frankly, that sort of crackpotting just isn't my thing.

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Well I live in a semi cold climate near the coast, but I've grown a lemon tree in a planter in a sheltered area of my garden. I am pretty sure a rich Bravoosi could just as easily grow one in a sheltered courtyard.

And there is good reason for the rich to grow them--to flavor their water and other food and drink. For example, besides Sansa and her cakes, doesn't Cersei gulp down lemon flavored water in Feast (when she is not gulping down wine that is).

LIke spices, lemons would have been valuable for their intense flavor in the Middle Ages. The rich would have grown them for their private use.

The house with the red door was no doubt arranged for by the knight who fled w/ Dany and Viserys ( Ser Willem Darry?) and it would have been an elite house, and it just seems to me perfectly reasonable that there would have been a lemon tree growing in a pot by the door. Such things are still very common in Europe which is probably where Martin got the idea.

ETA: from Wikipedia:

Citrus trees grown in tubs and wintered under cover were a feature of Renaissance gardens, once glass-making technology enabled sufficient expanses of clear glass to be produced. An orangery was a feature of royal and aristocratic residences through the 17th and 18th centuries. The Orangerie at the Palace of the Louvre, 1617, inspired imitations that were not eclipsed until the development of the modern greenhouse in the 1840s. In the United States the earliest surviving orangery is at the Tayloe House, Mount Airy, Virginia. George Washington had an orangery at Mount Vernon.

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^^^^^

Maybe a horticulture expert can enlighten me.

Thanks Miriel!

Are you sure this could have been done in medieval times?

It's strange we didnt see any citrus court yards of Kings Landing. Maybe King Bob preferred wine to oranges and lemons. I had believed the lemons seen in KL, Winterfell and the Wall all came from Dorne.

..............................................

ETA... Miriel, just realized it was probably winter when this tree was outside. It would have been pretty darn cold in Braavos at that point. The tree was outside. Does this effect your argument?

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In response to the O/P. Do you think there are any clues to what memory she might be repressing? Sexual abuse by Viserys or a servant? An assassination attempt?

WRT lemon trees, you might well have a lemon tree in Braavos that doesn't produce fruit. I've got an olive tree in the back garden, but we're too far North for it to produce olives. Likewise, there are neighbours with banana plants.

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^^^^^

Thanks Miriel!

Are you sure this could have been done in medieval times?

It's strange we didnt see any citrus court yards of Kings Landing. Maybe King Bob preferred wine to oranges and lemons. I had believed the lemons seen in KL, Winterfell and the Wall all came from Dorne.

I think since there is glass in the story and evidence of glass gardens (basically, greenhouses), that it's absolutely possible. Still, the citrus trees outside of their native environment would be more ornamental than anything. Fruit production could maybe offer a single family a burst of taste every once in a while but it definitely wouldn't be available for mass consumption. If there's a lemon tree at the Red Keep, it's unlikely it offered enough to make all of those lemon cakes Sansa ate. For that type of consumption and with the type of technology they lack, one would need to rely on imports from Dorne. The lemon tree in Braavos would very likely be simply an ornamental tree. I was browsing over a couple of passages and I noticed that Dany recalled the smell of the lemon tree, but never the taste. She doesn't crave lemon cakes and thinks like that.

Makes one wonder if those at the Eyrie would have had success with a weirwood if they'd tried to grow it in a pot.

Penguin King noted above that the lemon tree in Braavos represents the privileged life Dany and Viserys led. If I recall correctly, citrus was something Septon Meribald carted around oranges. These were precious things that not even Podrick had ever tasted. I think some of this, along with the alleged lemon tree in Braavos, illustrates just how privileged their life really was. When they struck out on their own, they stayed with some pretty wealthy people, even six months with the one of the wealthiest in the world. Did Viserys sell the crown because they were literally starving or because he just didn't like (or didn't know how) to live in a regular house living a regular life?

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I wonder why they ever left Braavos, given that they were under the protection of the Sealord. Maybe he died, and a different government wanted rid of them?

I think that's the likely answer, the Sealord during their time in Braavos died. At least one died before the current Sealord, Ferrego Antaryon, came into power. The First Sword of Braavos does not run, unless the Sealord is already dead since it's not an office sworn for life. It could also be that the Sealord did not want to reveal that he'd witnessed the contract signed for the marriage of Arianne and Viserys. Though, magisters, archons and merchant princes all over the Free Cities had also hosted the Targs at some point and also kicked them out so maybe they were just very poor guests.

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....

Though, magisters, archons and merchant princes all over the Free Cities had also hosted the Targs at some point and also kicked them out so maybe they were just very poor guests.

That. If you're looking at Visy/Dany backstory, they went from port to port, trying to find friends, curry favor, and find allies/armies to back them (Visy). Remember the "beggar king."

I'm not sure there's a reason to get caught up too much in Braavos and/or the Sealord in particular. Braavos was one of many cities they would have visited. And to the point Dr. Pepper makes, yes, the people they're visiting with are magisters, etc. Think about Xaro Xoan Daxos later on who tries to curry favor with Dany later on. Powerful people will be curious for a time, or may even have known their father/family for a time and been generous hosts. But the hosts will eventually tire, and Visy, etc will eventually want to move on and try to find friends elsewhere.

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It's strange we didnt see any citrus court yards of Kings Landing. Maybe King Bob preferred wine to oranges and lemons. I had believed the lemons seen in KL, Winterfell and the Wall all came from Dorne.

I'm pretty sure that the lemons and other citrus grown at Winterfell comes from the glass houses. Orangerys were staples of wealthy houses post Rennaisance, green houses or orangerys weren't invented till around the 16th century, so GRRM is kinda messing a bit with historical timelines there.

I do think the ideas in the OP are really interesting and worth pondering. Thanks for putting it together, yolkboy.

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snip

There was another theory about this floating around a month back but I have forgotten the topic, it goes something like this, Daenerys childhood memories are mixed up with her dreams since she was young at that time, it was suggested that Daenerys as she is a Targaryen (their ability to see things in the dream) saw the ToJ in her dreams, (because of the climate of dorne, lemon trees are suited to grow there) some also suggested that she is Rhaegar reborn because of her dream/vision;

"That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened."

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Most likely is just that GRRM hadn't fleshed out Braavos and it was an oversight.... not every inconsistency is a grand conspiracy.

:agree:

That said Yolkboy, I find your theory incredibly interesting and entirely plausible.

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