There are No Lemon Trees in Braavos (questioning Dany's childhood)

[yolkboy]

I think since there is glass in the story and evidence of glass gardens (basically, greenhouses), that it's absolutely possible.

Yes i had not remembered greenhouses. One thing i do remember, is that Sansa can find no lemons at the Eerie, so maybe the suggestion is that there's lemon trees there.

I'm pretty sure that the lemons and other citrus grown at Winterfell comes from the glass houses.

Its entirely possible. There's lemon slices at the wall so someone is supplying all these lemons, the thing about Dorne is there's such a high volume. Anguy's quote that i used seemed to me to underline some kind of exclusivity of lemons being at dorne, but i guess thats not necessarily the case.

In response to the O/P. Do you think there are any clues to what memory she might be repressing? Sexual abuse by Viserys or a servant? An assassination attempt?

So, lemon tree or not, it's still possible that Dany is repressing something. My crackpot is that Dany might have been prepared/instructed for traumatic future events, such as building the pyre/walking into it, and things we havent seen yet. I think there's a pre-destiny about some characters - we saw this with Bran being watched by BR since he was young. It might have been Moqorro at Dany's wedding, the red priest fatter than Illyrio, and maybe the reds have a longer history with Dany than we think. During the build up to the pyre, the fever dram and other times - it seemed like Dany was having her memory jogged to me, from a certain angle. Not that i totally believe this, but it's a thought. What we did learn from this time is that the red door surely means something IMO.

I looked for sexual abuse clues and found nothing at all. (apart from Dany's erratic personality arc, but that can be explained a million different ways.)

The only thing i found strange, is Dany always remembers being alone in the red house. There's no people in this favourite memory of hers. Yet, in the HoTU, we see Willem in the house, and she loves him dearly. I had wondered why he is not in her usual daydreams.

There was another theory about this floating around a month back but I have forgotten the topic, it goes something like this, Daenerys childhood memories are mixed up with her dreams since she was young at that time, it was suggested that Daenerys as she is a Targaryen (their ability to see things in the dream) saw the ToJ in her dreams, (because of the climate of dorne, lemon trees are suited to grow there) some also suggested that she is Rhaegar reborn because of her dream/vision;

I didn't like this at first. Now i've slept on it, i quite like the notion of it being dreams. I always appreciate a fresh angle, so bravo to whoever birthed the idea.

[yolkboy]

"Most likely is just that GRRM hadn't fleshed out Braavos and it was an oversight.... not every inconsistency is a grand conspiracy."

That said Yolkboy, I find your theory incredibly interesting and entirely plausible.

Well, this would be a heck of an inconsistency IMO. I mean i know he gets the sex of horses wrong but... this is repeated many times.

And thanks, even wrong theories can stir up important thing sometimes.

[SeanF]

My wife's a keen horticulturalist, and she's certain a lemon tree wouldn't survive out of doors, in Winter, in a climate like Braavos. So, either it was growing in tub, and was only put out in the Summer, or this is a false memory from Daenerys.

[PatrickStormborn]

I like your analysis of the lemon tree, and I think it's spot-on. Dany recalls the House with the Red Door - symbolic of safety - but she's trapped inside; the memory is literally suffocating her. The lemon tree - symbolising her innocence, freedom, childhood - is outside, beyond her reach. Dany can't be free until she is free of the House with the Red Door.

I don't think there's any kind of repressed memory there, though. She spends most of her time in ADwD dreaming about living inside the House with the Red Door with Daario and a family. I don't think she'd do that if it was holding any repressed memories.

[Frey family reunion]

Yes, I know when the dream was. Jorah told her well before this dream that Rhaegar was the last dragon. The words were shocking to her.

His blunt words startled her. It seemed as though all the things she had always believed were suddenly called into question.

She thinks about Jorah's comment again when she put the eggs on the brazier. Then she has the fever dream where she again thinks of Jorah telling her Rhaegar was the last dragon. She took what Jorah said literally. She thinks that some Targaryens are literally dragons and that Rhaegar was a dragon and she will be a dragon too.

ETA: Thanks for the link but I've already seen the thread plus several others of yours. Frankly, that sort of crackpotting just isn't my thing.

You're right, I don't know what I was thinking about, bringing up the possibility of reincarnation in this series, what a foolish idea. Edit: I'll keep discourse within the realm of Westeros. Next thing you know I'll start talking about fire breathing dragons, and boys that can see into the past through a network of trees.

[yolkboy]

My wife's a keen horticulturalist, and she's certain a lemon tree wouldn't survive out of doors, in Winter, in a climate like Braavos. So, either it was growing in tub, and was only put out in the Summer, or this is a false memory from Daenerys.

YES! I just realised that, if Dany was around 4 years old at this time, it would have been winter.

I should have highlighted that it was probably winter (or soon after, still cold) when this lemon tree was supposedly outside. Duh! Braavos would have been pretty cold, if not very cold.

I wonder if those arguing against had taken that into consideration?

[joluoto]

Ehh, in Europe during the Baroque kings and rich people planted exotic trees in their gardens, even though the climate was all wrong. Sure there wouldn't be a good lemon harvest, but a rich person could have had a lemon tree.

[Mine Is Not The Fury]

Really impressiv analyse but I think this is just a case of reading to much into things.

[SeanF]

Ehh, in Europe during the Baroque kings and rich people planted exotic trees in their gardens, even though the climate was all wrong. Sure there wouldn't be a good lemon harvest, but a rich person could have had a lemon tree.

Lemon trees would have to be grown in hothouses. They could be taken out in hot weather, but in cold weather, the frost would kill them. Braavos has a cold climate.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Looks like I've come late to the party... but it's an interesting one. At first I was a bit on the fence whether this could perhaps still lie inside the scope of fantasy gardening.... but no, in winter, even the Sealord of Braavos shouldn't have lemons outside the window. And it's quite explicitely stated to me outside... something does not compute.

[butterbumps!]

Ok, this is an interesting theory. However, there's sufficient reason to believe that the lemon tree did, in fact, exist in Braavos when it was said to.

Yes, frost can destroy outdoor citrus; we know that Braavos is reasonably mild, yet is subject to icing in the canals.

BUT: by the time Dany was 3/4, winter had ended. Jon tells us that this summer had lasted a full ten years, six months into aGoT, when Dany is approximately 14. So, winter has already passed by the time Dany is old enough to really create this memory anyway.

I agree, though, that lemons represent innocence in this story. Though, the memory doesn't need to be fabricated in order for this to apply.

[A Song of Tyrion's member]

Lemons are typically symbolic of a warning; a sort of disclaimer that things aren't always as they seem. I like the idea that (if indeed the lemon tree memory wasn't just an oversight) the memory of the lemon tree could be a warning that her time in Braavos wasn't all that it seemed to be. To be more specific, the lemon tree could be indicative of Illyrio's true plans for (f)Aegon versus Illyrio's sort of 'get her out of the way' plans for Dany and Viserys. Dany could figure this out, somehow, and boom, the next dance with dragons. Grasping at straws here.

[SeanF]

I could be wrong, but my impression is that within the extended Summers and Winters, there are periods of hotter and colder weather, so there would be times where you'd have frost in Summer (sometimes you get Summer frost in the modern UK ), certainly as far North as Braavos.

[Lady of Shalott]

Lemon trees would have to be grown in hothouses. They could be taken out in hot weather, but in cold weather, the frost would kill them. Braavos has a cold climate.

I always assumed that the lemon tree was in a pot, taken out when weather allowed, and kept inside the rest of the time. Much like people still do with orange trees etc. in many places. Given Braavos' location, it's possible that the temps don't actually go under 0°C that often (think, say, Brittany).

[Magic 8 Ball]

I could be wrong, but my impression is that within the extended Summers and Winters, there are periods of hotter and colder weather, so there would be times where you'd have frost in Summer (sometimes you get Summer frost in the modern UK ), certainly as far North as Braavos.

Temps typically never go that much below freezing on the coastal regions, outside of sub-arctic regions. The references we have to "summer snows" come from Winterfell, which is hundreds of miles inland.

[joluoto]

Braavos isn't that cold. Sure lemon trees wouldn't grow naturally there, but it's not in the same temperature class as the North. And there was a long summer recently. Even if lemon trees don't survive winters, I can imagine the rich people of Essos amusing themselves with planting exotic trees during summer.

[Lady Winter Rose]

My grandfather had lemon "tree" in yard. We have lemons ever winter because we live on Mediterranean so winter was never as cold as in Canada or continental USA.

That "tree" was actually bush. If there's some lemon "tree" that aren't bushes, please prove it.

[Ser Lepus]

Maybe it was another kind of tree, and Dany thought it was a lemon tree? If, like some people mentioned, it was winter when she lived there, she could think that the tree wasn't giving lemons because of the season (she was a little girl, then).

She could also be getting mixed two different places, the house in Braavos and some other place in Tyrosh or Lys she lived in during her travels.

[Dr. Pepper]

My grandfather had lemon "tree" in yard. We have lemons ever winter because we live on Mediterranean so winter was never as cold as in Canada or continental USA.

That "tree" was actually bush. If there's some lemon "tree" that aren't bushes, please prove it.

I think a google search would prove that. You're arguing semantics, anyway. Banana trees aren't technically trees but we still call them that. We all know what we mean when we say "lemon tree". Lemon trees outside of natural environment and/or cultivated more for ornamentation than mass production, will likely be more in the bush category. Lemon orchards would have trees that check off all of the criteria needed to be defined as a tree.

[Magic 8 Ball]

Maybe Lemons just happen to be more frost resistant in Earthos anyway, like the alligators.