There are No Lemon Trees in Braavos (questioning Dany's childhood)

[yolkboy]

BUT: by the time Dany was 3/4, winter had ended. Jon tells us that this summer had lasted a full ten years, six months into aGoT, when Dany is approximately 14. So, winter has already passed by the time Dany is old enough to really create this memory anyway.

Lady Gwyn in small questions seemed to think it was winter when Dany was 4

"I think the answer is yes. We know Bran (7 years younger than Dany) has never known winter. IIRC, somewhere in AGoT it is mentioned that it was 9 years ago. "

I also looked at the wiki (ok not totally reliable) and when Dany was 4 it seems on the cusp of winter ending.

They have the winter ending/summer begin at 288 AL. I shouldn't imagine it jumping from winter to summer overnight either.

Overall i don't know what to make of this thread. :dunno: There's horticultural people for and against so i dunno.

[butterbumps!]

Lady Gwyn in small questions seemed to think it was winter when Dany was 4

"I think the answer is yes. We know Bran (7 years younger than Dany) has never known winter. IIRC, somewhere in AGoT it is mentioned that it was 9 years ago. "

I also looked at the wiki (ok not totally reliable) and when Dany was 4 it seems on the cusp of winter ending.

They have the winter ending/summer begin at 288 AL. I shouldn't imagine it jumping from winter to summer overnight either.

Overall i don't know what to make of this thread. :dunno: There's horticultural people for and against so i dunno.

I don't know what the problem is. Dany is 3/4 when summer is already in full swing, not even counting the spring that would have happened right before this with conceivably mild weather.

DP spoke to the fact that the entire issue of cold weather could be avoided entirely if the tree in question was kept in a planter.

It doesn't matter whether anyone believes a lemon tree could survive in cold weather or not, because A. it wasn't winter in Dany's memory, and B. the tree could have been brought indoors even if it was.

Dany's memory here might not be exact to reality, but there isn't an inconsistency wrt the ability for this lemon tree to exist in a courtyard in Braavos.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Lady Gwyn in small questions seemed to think it was winter when Dany was 4

"I think the answer is yes. We know Bran (7 years younger than Dany) has never known winter. IIRC, somewhere in AGoT it is mentioned that it was 9 years ago. "

I also looked at the wiki (ok not totally reliable) and when Dany was 4 it seems on the cusp of winter ending.

They have the winter ending/summer begin at 288 AL. I shouldn't imagine it jumping from winter to summer overnight either.

Overall i don't know what to make of this thread. :dunno: There's horticultural people for and against so i dunno.

In the Tower of the Hand summary of AGoT ch 1 (on which the wiki is based) it says it is the ninth year of summer. This is 298 and Dany was born in 284, so I surmise she was 5 when the last winter ended in 289. There is also a Tyrion quote somewhere about how old he was in the last winter, though I cannot recall exactly where at the moment.

Eta- I have to admit I agree with others that the lemon tree is probably not as important as the other points you raised in your armchair analysis. The house with the red door represents a highly idealized time in her life. If she is indeed repressing something negative that happened there, the lemon tree outside the house may indeed be her mental touchstone for lost innocence. My money is on the regime change in Braavos bringing about a huge upheaval in the lives of Dany and her brother, leading to a period of gypsy like wandering around the Free Cities, seeking a new patron. Has anyone ever considered that maybe Ser Willem didn't die the relatively peaceful death Dany recalls? If something particularly violent happened to the only father figure she had ever known, she could very well repress that memory with these idealized images. If might explain why he doesn't ever appear in her memories of that place.

[blood of the dragoon]

The narrow sea is far too narrow to have a guild stream effect that only works on one side.

If anything it may bring cold Arctic water down, explaining why the fingers are colder than Riverrun. Large bodies of water tend to moderate climate (it gets colder in Kazakhstan than Ireland, though Ireland is far North of Kazakhstan), yet this is not the case here.

So even if there is a 'gulf stream' here, it affects both shores.

[Ragnorak]

From Jon VII (GoT)

This summer had lasted ten years. Jon had been a babe in arms when it began.

In real life one of the biggest reasons for plants growing in certain climates is because of the seasons. If you throw in multi-year seasons the science behind what grows where gets more than a little fuzzy.

The OP makes a nice point and there's some interesting discussion in the thread about the implications, but at some point accepting dragons as "ok" but rendering potted ornamental lemon trees simply impossible despite 10 year summers gets a little hyper-technical.

People plant things that don't survive because of the climate all the time. They die and next season they replant them because they happen to like them. Other people even tell them "those things don't survive in this climate" and they go on planting and replanting anyway. There's plenty of stubborn gardeners out there with a self imposed Sisyphus curse.

[Dr. Pepper]

A house with a red door invokes an image of a quaint dwelling. It reminds of a cottage or summer house or something of that nature. This idea is supported when Dany thinks of the simple life she could live with Daario in a house with the red door.

--In her dream they had been man and wife, simple folk who lived a simple life in a tall stone house with a red door.

One thing I noticed while browsing that I completely missed before is that Dany constantly calls the house with the red door a big house.

--That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door.

--Even the big house with the red door had not been home for him.

In the House of the Undying, she further describes this house. It's pretty grand! We don't get mentions of great wooden beams in the Inns or brothels; only in the castles of Westeros or at the Wall.

--She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree! The sight of it made her heart ache with longing. It is the house with the red door, the house in Braavos.

She comments on what the red door house means to her. It's a childhood she had never known.

--All that Daenerys wanted back was the big house with the red door, the lemon tree outside her window, the childhood she had never known.

In the house with the red door, Ser Willem Darry called her 'little princess' and 'my lady'. She had servants and her own room. She lived in one of the mighty, grand places that could afford to have a tree in a courtyard - even more, a lemon tree. She was, basically, royalty. Royalty in exile, but by no means royalty in poverty. The quote above seems to be suggesting Dany wanting to return to living a royal, charmed life where everything was safe and taken care of. I'm not sure she recognizes that it was a charmed life, considered she uses the red door to describe a simple life with Daario.

My point is, the lemon tree is real but Dany's recollection about they station in which she lived in Braavos is faulty. Just the fact that there is a lemon tree and a red door in Braavos tells us that she was living in wealth and splendor. The house with the red door doesn't represent the simple life she desires with Daario. Eating charred horse in the Dothraki Sea would more fit that simple life desire she had.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

From Jon VII (GoT)

In real life one of the biggest reasons for plants growing in certain climates is because of the seasons. If you throw in multi-year seasons the science behind what grows where gets more than a little fuzzy.

The OP makes a nice point and there's some interesting discussion in the thread about the implications, but at some point accepting dragons as "ok" but rendering potted ornamental lemon trees simply impossible despite 10 year summers gets a little hyper-technical.

People plant things that don't survive because of the climate all the time. They die and next season they replant them because they happen to like them. Other people even tell them "those things don't survive in this climate" and they go on planting and replanting anyway. There's plenty of stubborn gardeners out there with a self imposed Sisyphus curse.

I agree with all of this. However, I came back here because I had been searching for the quote from AGoT ch 1 (Bran I) to back up the wiki, and I found it:

It was the ninth year of summer, and the seventh of Bran's life

What do you make of that? Has a year passed between chapter 1 and chapter 52?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

A house with a red door invokes an image of a quaint dwelling. It reminds of a cottage or summer house or something of that nature. This idea is supported when Dany thinks of the simple life she could live with Daario in a house with the red door.

--In her dream they had been man and wife, simple folk who lived a simple life in a tall stone house with a red door.

One thing I noticed while browsing that I completely missed before is that Dany constantly calls the house with the red door a big house.

--That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door.

--Even the big house with the red door had not been home for him.

In the House of the Undying, she further describes this house. It's pretty grand! We don't get mentions of great wooden beams in the Inns or brothels; only in the castles of Westeros or at the Wall.

--She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree! The sight of it made her heart ache with longing. It is the house with the red door, the house in Braavos.

She comments on what the red door house means to her. It's a childhood she had never known.

--All that Daenerys wanted back was the big house with the red door, the lemon tree outside her window, the childhood she had never known.

In the house with the red door, Ser Willem Darry called her 'little princess' and 'my lady'. She had servants and her own room. She lived in one of the mighty, grand places that could afford to have a tree in a courtyard - even more, a lemon tree. She was, basically, royalty. Royalty in exile, but by no means royalty in poverty. The quote above seems to be suggesting Dany wanting to return to living a royal, charmed life where everything was safe and taken care of. I'm not sure she recognizes that it was a charmed life, considered she uses the red door to describe a simple life with Daario.

My point is, the lemon tree is real but Dany's recollection about they station in which she lived in Braavos is faulty. Just the fact that there is a lemon tree and a red door in Braavos tells us that she was living in wealth and splendor. The house with the red door doesn't represent the simple life she desires with Daario. Eating charred horse in the Dothraki Sea would more fit that simple life desire she had.

:agree:

[Bright Blue Eyes]

What do you make of that? Has a year passed between chapter 1 and chapter 52?

Roughly. Game encompasses one and a half years. Even between chapter 1 and Robert arriving in Winterfell in chapter 4 are at least three months. At least.

[Ragnorak]

What do you make of that? Has a year passed between chapter 1 and chapter 52?

For the same Jon chapter:

“It has been close on half a year since Benjen left us, my lord,”

So Jon is thinking 10 years of summer about six months after he arrived at the Wall (since Benjen left fairly soon afterwards.) The 6 months alone could easily tick the odometer from 9 to 10 years of summer. There's travel time from KL to Winterfell, Winterfell to the Wall, plus the time Robert spent in Winterfell to add to the 6 months. So probably not a full year but getting close to it.

[yolkboy]

OP here to say, while this thread was definitely worth exploring, i don't feel it's stood up to scrutiny. The issue has been confusing me for a while, and i'm glad it's brought discussion.

What the thread has proved to me is that whoever owned this lemon tree was very very rich, "court of the mighty" as the text put it - I think people in the thread have shown its quite a feat to get a lemon tree in Braavos. The references to the lack of trees in the text, seems to be a device to show us that wherever Dany was living, is likely to be very posh.

If this is somewhere we know of, it seems like the Sealords Palace could fit. If that is the case, it brings about the intriguing possibility that Dany and Syrio have met.

Thanks to everyone who posted in the thread, i hope it brought some things to the surface in one way or another.

[SeanF]

It was well worth exploring. It would be very interesting to know more of Dany's and Viserys' back-story, prior to their arrival at Pentos. My impression is that they weren't actually destitute, at any stage. Viserys was able to organise a dinner for the leaders of the Golden Company (not that turned out well) - but it must have cost quite a lot. I've been critical of Doran for not actually doing anything for the pair of them, when they were in exile, but maybe he was discreetly making funds available to their various hosts.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Agreed, they must have stayed somewhere quite fancy if a lemon tree was a possibility (and Dr P's post corroborates that conclusion). The Sealord's Palace itself, or maybe a side palace to it owned by the Sealord does seem possible - after all, the Sealord did take an interest and stood witness to the marriage pact with Dorne.

Even though it's hard to see how it would influence events today, it's a nice thought that Syrio might have come across her a few times then.

[Roadside Rose]

I like this thread. I agree to lemon representing innocence, naivety. Dany seems to miss her childhood innocence.

I think lemons represent innocence just like peaches represent luxury. (The King John Lackland is said to have died from a surfeit of peaches.)

But the question to why there was a lemon tree outside Dany's home in Braavos...I'd say it has to do with Dorne watching over her during her childhood. All the wealth, luxury and comfort were likely provided from Dorne. And then something changed.

[Tiki]

GRRM isn't God. He may not have realized that.

[SeanF]

A house with a red door invokes an image of a quaint dwelling. It reminds of a cottage or summer house or something of that nature. This idea is supported when Dany thinks of the simple life she could live with Daario in a house with the red door.

--In her dream they had been man and wife, simple folk who lived a simple life in a tall stone house with a red door.

One thing I noticed while browsing that I completely missed before is that Dany constantly calls the house with the red door a big house.

--That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door.

--Even the big house with the red door had not been home for him.

In the House of the Undying, she further describes this house. It's pretty grand! We don't get mentions of great wooden beams in the Inns or brothels; only in the castles of Westeros or at the Wall.

--She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree! The sight of it made her heart ache with longing. It is the house with the red door, the house in Braavos.

She comments on what the red door house means to her. It's a childhood she had never known.

--All that Daenerys wanted back was the big house with the red door, the lemon tree outside her window, the childhood she had never known.

In the house with the red door, Ser Willem Darry called her 'little princess' and 'my lady'. She had servants and her own room. She lived in one of the mighty, grand places that could afford to have a tree in a

courtyard - even more, a lemon tree. She was, basically, royalty. Royalty in exile, but by no means royalty in poverty. The quote above seems to be suggesting Dany wanting to return to living a royal, charmed life where everything was safe and taken care of. I'm not sure she recognizes that it was a charmed life, considered she uses the red door to describe a simple life with Daario.

My point is, the lemon tree is real but Dany's recollection about they station in which she lived in Braavos is faulty. Just the fact that there is a lemon tree and a red door in Braavos tells us that she was living in wealth and splendor. The house with the red door doesn't represent the simple life she desires with Daario. Eating charred horse in the Dothraki Sea would more fit that simple life desire she had.

One would have to be wealthy to live in any house built of stone.

[Ladylance]

One would have to be wealthy to live in any house built of stone.

Not so in Braavos, where stone is the building material of choice.

I do agree this is interesting to look at. I don't know if it simply implies Dany's childhood memories are confused, or that she was living in greater luxury than she realised. Perhaps the Lemon Tree symbolises a Dornish connection- It was sent by the Dornish to her childhood home. I do think that Dany and Viserys were never litterally starving during her childhood, but they moved around a lot due to Viserys' paranoia, and he may well have sold their treasures to fund this.

It's also interesting that no-one ever questions that they are who they say they are. If some very powerful people had seen them in the Sealord's palace as children it lends a lot of legitimacy to them. If they had been hiding in secret for three or four years, it would leave them a lot more open to rumours that they weren't the real Targaryens.

Maybe it's not really a true memory though? Maybe it's just a picture Dany has built up in her head, like the other things Viserys has told her.

I certainly buy the theory that Dany's childhood memories aren't exactly what she thinks they are.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

It's magic :grouphug:

[MRHD]

Has anyone considered the possibility that the lemon tree was a faceless man wearing a lemon tree's face being warged by Bloodraven to keep an eye on the surviving Targs? Dany is so fond of the memory because subconsciously she realizes that Bloodraven As Lemon Tree was watching out for her. Just throwing that out there.

[WildBlood]

Has anyone considered the possibility that the lemon tree was a faceless man wearing a lemon tree's face being warged by Bloodraven to keep an eye on the surviving Targs? Dany is so fond of the memory because subconsciously she realizes that Bloodraven As Lemon Tree was watching out for her. Just throwing that out there.

Or maybe a secret targ?