Reviewing Second Sons

[The Frision Wolf]

Why do we all care so much if there's nudity ? We dont complain when theres to much violence in it ? I dont mind seeing a beautifull naked woman on the show, it's not the reason WHY I watch the show but i enjoy it asswell

i just dont know where's all the fuzz about.( and i dont believe there are people who watch the show just because you see some T&A. I mean we have other movies for that)

Greetz

[Ran]

There has been plenty of complaints regarding the "torture porn" of the Theon scenes. Gratuitous violence gets noted. But the fact is, in general the violent scenes are part of a logicial progression of the story. Some of the scenes featuring nudity are, on the other hand, quite contrived.

Isn't the point of viewing entertainment doing so with an eye towards enjoying it?

You view entertainment with an eye towards enjoying it if it meets the criteria by which you define whether something is enjoyable or not. You're not "simply" taking whatever they offer you and being entertained unquestioningly.

So in the end, it comes down to people having different bars as to what is enjoyable or not.

Although I get your implication that people who don't dislike the changes in the adaptation are lazy and stupid, so thanks.

You're welcome? Though it seems to me that you're at best projecting your own insecurity, since I was specifically responding to those who took issue with Patrick and others taking a critical perspective of the show as a default position. If your default position is to be critical, then what's the issue?

If the plot in Game of Thrones was lazy and didn't make sense, like it is so often accused of by members here, I would not like it.

The plot is broadly part of the novels, so it would be hard for it to be lazy.

But there are particular instances in which the writers are, indeed, being lazy. As with the Melisandre sex scene with Gendry, which is very obviously created for titillation and directly contradicts the logic she herself offered for the efficacy of blood as a sacrifice so long as it's "unspoiled" by things like fear. Or the multiple repetitive scenes for Arya and Jon in the previous season, which replaced story lines which would have offered a natural forward progression in character development rather than stasis.

They've frittered away a good deal of time in the 2nd and 3rd season, and they have far less room to work in than GRRM does, which is what makes it all rather surprising. They don't have the luxury of deciding to have an extra episode here or an extra ten minutes there, but still, we get "Podrick, Sex God" and "Lets terrify Gendry with leeches just so we can see Melisandre naked again".

[Honourable Ser]

Two things I think:

- Nobody is ever going to adapt someone else's work (especially book to film) without taking some creative liberties. It's just not worth the money, time, and effort. David and Dan are wonderful storytellers in their own rights, so if they are going to bust their ass to adapt one of my favorite stories, I'm going to let them play in the sandbox a bit. They've worked for it.

- Though I find GoT amazing in almost all aspects, I use non-reader opinions as a true barometer for the strength of the show. I've heard overwhelming praise in those regards, not only from reviewers, but from friends and family who will probably never pick up the novels.

Cheers for this!

[kissdbyfire]

I so have to agree with your insight about Cersei and Marge's conversation. I understand the show was probably just trying to show how hateful Cersei can be but going as far as she making those empty threats to a Tyrell seems a bit too much. I mean I was like Margaery should just reply something like

"Oh yeah, you do that and a 100,000 Tyrell soldiers destroy the Westerlands, sack King's Landing and extinguish your line without any further thoughts or maybe we'll just withdraw our support to King Joffrey and leave you here to starve. Threaten me again and the Tyrells might be the ones singing "Rains of Castamere" to you."

I thought that conversation between Cersei and Margaery served as an explanation of sorts; after all, the next episode is called 'The Rains of Castamere' and those who haven't read the books wouldn't necessarily connect the dots...

[PatrickStormborn]

I thought that conversation between Cersei and Margaery served as an explanation of sorts; after all, the next episode is called 'The Rains of Castamere' and those who haven't read the books wouldn't necessarily connect the dots...

I agree that the story was needed, but I think Cersei's comment afterwards was too explicit. Considering the power of the Tyrells, Cersei's threat should have been more subtle (even AFfC-Cersei would not dare be so explicitly threatening).

[Cas Stark]

I thought that conversation between Cersei and Margaery served as an explanation of sorts; after all, the next episode is called 'The Rains of Castamere' and those who haven't read the books wouldn't necessarily connect the dots...

I'm sure it did. But having Cersei threaten to have her future daughter in law strangled was an off-note, she's stupid and hateful, but she would not overtly threaten to kill the future queen at a time when she has no plans or way to get rid of her because her father is still alive, so, its bad writing to me, too much melodrama thats not consistent with the story.

The same way as was pointed out above, that having Mel say the blood is ruined by fear and in the next scene show the victim screaming in fear is lazy storytelling, its assuming your audience isn't paying attention and doens't care about those details because they've been mesmerized by Mel being naked and going OMG leeches on the penis.

I would say GOT deserves better, it deserves a better attention to detail and logic and consistency, ESPECIALLY when the writers choose to ad lib in the story with characters and events that didn't occur in the books, those parts of the show deserve more scrutiny in terms of believability, logic, etc.

I'll also echo what was said above, though I've said it a thousand times by now, they've made some very strange decisions the last 2 seasons in how they've allocated time for characters and stories, spending an inordinate amount of time on repetitive side plots like Tyrion/Shae LF/Varys as well as Ros while spending very little time on some of the future major players like Roose Bolton.

[PatrickStormborn]

- Nobody is ever going to adapt someone else's work (especially book to film) without taking some creative liberties. It's just not worth the money, time, and effort. David and Dan are wonderful storytellers in their own rights, so if they are going to bust their ass to adapt one of my favorite stories, I'm going to let them play in the sandbox a bit. They've worked for it.

I disagree that they're "wonderful storytellers" based on what they've given us so far, but I guess that's just a matter of interpretation.

The problem I have is with the idea that they ~deserve~ to take "creative liberties" to feed their own egos. Bringing this world to life is a huge achievement on its own, and I'm sure most people don't have problems with additional scenes that feel like they could have taken place off-stage in the book, provided they are not at the expense of material from the book.

[kissdbyfire]

I disagree that they're "wonderful storytellers" based on what they've given us so far, but I guess that's just a matter of interpretation.

The problem I have is with the idea that they ~deserve~ to take "creative liberties" to feed their own egos. Bringing this world to life is a huge achievement on its own, and I'm sure most people don't have problems with additional scenes that feel like they could have taken place off-stage in the book, provided they are not at the expense of material from the book.

Well said.

Regarding the Cersei/Margaery exchange, I agree as well. I probably didn't make myself too clear, though. I think some characters' traits are being deliberately exacerbated, and I don't necessarily think this is a good thing. At worst, it's a waste of precious time - remember the scene with Joffrey, Roz (or is it Ros?) and the other girl on season 2? What did that scene do? How did it further the story? It only emphasised the 'Joffrey is a cruel sadistic little prick' thing, but that had already been established since season 1. And that scene lasted close to 3 minutes, if I'm not mistaken - I actually timed it.

And that's just one instance, the first that came to mind. My point is, there is a dumbing-down on the TV show, and I don't agree with it nor think it's necessary. is it an issue of, 'the more dumbed-down it is, the biggest the audience'? I don't know, but with my overall pessimistic opinion of humankind I'd say 'yup'. :D

ETA: yet I'm enjoying season 3 WAY more than season 2. Dany's scene freeing the slaves got me all teary-eyed. :)

[AegonSnow]

I actually don't mind the portrayal of Tyrion.

I remember reading the book and the Tyrion/Sansa wedding I think was pretty well handled.

Maybe Peter Dinklage just didn't want to get nude?

I also think your analysis of the "Rains of Castamere" was a bit nit picky.

Whether or not they rebelled under Tytos Lannister doesn't really matter in the long run. IMO

[Mr Fixit]

You know what? If someone has the balls, enthusiasm, and sheer mental strength to tackle a project of this magnitude, they can have all the "ego" they want.

Where does all this envy come from? Are there really that many underachievers roaming around the internet?

[Honourable Ser]

I actually don't mind the portrayal of Tyrion.

I remember reading the book and the Tyrion/Sansa wedding I think was pretty well handled.

Maybe Peter Dinklage just didn't want to get nude?

I also think your analysis of the "Rains of Castamere" was a bit nit picky.

Whether or not they rebelled under Tytos Lannister doesn't really matter in the long run. IMO

I agree, the point I've been trying to make is that you can't expect it to meet a book purist's expectations because there are many other groups to consider. I don't get why you'd want to watch it if it's the perceived faults that stand out for you :P

[Khal Porno]

Yeah, that's the thing that just blows my mind. People here have such intense disdain for the show and really seem not to enjoy it, yet they keep watching every week even though they KNOW it's going to be the same show.

I am a HUGE fan of The Walking Dead comic book series, it's possibly the best comic series I've ever read. When the show came out, I enjoyed the first season and was fine that so much was changed, even though some things were slightly disappointing, because the show was the show and the books were the books - two totally different, but related experiences (and the changes made in adaptation have been DRASTIC). However the quality of the show has dropped so significantly (if you want to talk about problems with logic, consistency, and character development jeeze) in my opinion that I stopped watching it, despite the fact that there are still elements that I DO like about it and its based on something I love. And I definitely don't go around criticizing other people for enjoying it and calling them dumb or unsophisticated.

[Cas Stark]

I don't see what is so difficult to understand about watching and overall enjoying the show, and still being critical of various elements and decisions made by the producers.

It isn't an either/or proposition where you should have to shut up and stop complaining or stop watching it, even though thats the reaction that comes from a lot of people who appear to have a hard time grasping the concept of criticism and enjoyment going hand in hand.

[Khal Porno]

I don't see what is so difficult to understand about watching and overall enjoying the show, and still being critical of various elements and decisions made by the producers.

It isn't an either/or proposition where you should have to shut up and stop complaining or stop watching it, even though thats the reaction that comes from a lot of people who appear to have a hard time grasping the concept of criticism and enjoyment going hand in hand.

No dude, that's not what I'm talking about. Being critical and still enjoying something is one thing, I'm not saying you have to shut up and like it period or stop watching, it's that people here have so much vitriol and disdain toward Game of Thrones that they clearly don't enjoy it. In that case it doesn't make to subject yourself to something that causes you so much mental anguish.

[Cas Stark]

No dude, that's not what I'm talking about. Being critical and still enjoying something is one thing, I'm not saying you have to shut up and like it period or stop watching, it's that people here have so much vitriol and disdain toward Game of Thrones that they clearly don't enjoy it. In that case it doesn't make to subject yourself to something that causes you so much mental anguish.

I don't think that's true, really. I'll use myself as an example. I admit, I do NOT enjoy the Talisa character, I find everything about her cringeworthy, acting, dialogue, story arc, and feel this character has seriously damaged the Robb Stark Storm of Swords storyline.

However, I love Richard Madden and Michel Fairley and most of the other storylines. So, while I have complained a lot about Talisa, and its a terrible shame what they did, and inexplicable that they made such a miscalculation in my opinion, but in the overall scheme of things, she's only one character, who will be almost certainly dead by Sunday, and is the only character, other than Ros who I would say was a complete miss. So, that leaves the show still having a high batting average overall.

It's the same with the books, I had a lot of criticism of his last two books, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to read the rest of the series, or that the problems with the last two books erases everything else that has been great about it.

[Miodrag]

Your typical show-apologist is a person who’s a lot like Theon in “A Clash of Kings”: one family (books) is rewarding, honorable, noble, but somewhat distant, somewhat hard to understand and follow; the other family (TV show) is much simpler, much more basic in it’s demands, and certainly less demanding in terms of intellect and devotion... All the similarities are there. Except one: Theon is at least understandable – he was a Greyjoy before he “joined” Starks, after all. With show-apologists it’s not so easy. Some (many?) of them were introduced to ASOIAF through the novels, hence, the books were their “original family”, and yet, as soon as something flashy, something heavily advertised, appeared on their screens, they turned their back to the novels and became the servants of the TV show.

And the most funny thing is, nobody’s forcing them to take a side against anyone or anything. They can enjoy their show without raising up in arms whenever someone expresses his/her disappointment in the TV series, disappointments that often spring from the natural and inevitable comparison to the source material. They can do the very thing book readers did when AFFC and ADWD faced heavy criticism from some fans: live and let live. In all the debates about those two books, I can’t recall a single AFFC/ADWD lover who suggested that those who didn’t like them should stop reading the series. There were, and still are, some heated discussions over AFFC+ADWD, but it’s really hard to find a single fan of those books who was offended or disturbed by the negative opinions of some other readers, and thus reacted with petty insults like “you don’t understand the medium GRRM is working in” or “you don’t know the realities of the industry of writing”. Actually, nobody was trying to defend the author from the critics, though he is definitely much, much more worthy of a defense than showrunners are – people were/are discussing the books to no end, and yet it’s probably impossible to find someone who’s attacking those who are “attacking” GRRM. On the other hand, D&D are constantly safeguarded by show-apologists, to the point that fans of the TV show even invent their own (i.e. non-existent) backstories aimed at justifying some of the stupidest decisions HBO made.

[Khal Porno]

"Live and let live??" Dude you just said people who enjoy the show are idiots and traitors to the books! This is the kind of thing I am talking about.

Jeeze, it's like a religion or something.

[Miodrag]

"Live and let live??" Dude you just said people who enjoy the show are idiots and traitors to the books! This is the kind of thing I am talking about.

Jeeze, it's like a religion or something.

No, dude just said that show-apologists can’t take opposite opinions, and that they are trigger-happy in their responds. Not show fans, i.e. people that love and enjoy the show but don’t feel the need to do D&D’s work in order to defend the show, but show-apologists, i.e. those who actually prevent reasonable discussions about GoT by attacking all of us who believe ASOIAF deserves a much better adaptation and by suggesting that we should quit watching the show if we don’t like it. I think there’s a difference between being a fan and being an apologist – you’ll maybe agree if you take under consideration the example I brought up in my post, about AFFC/ADWD-hate being responded to in a much different way than GoT-hate is often do. (Guess you’ll understand the world “hate” stands not for actual hate, but for heavy criticism.)

[Khal Porno]

No, dude just said that show-apologists can’t take opposite opinions, and that they are trigger-happy in their responds. Not show fans, i.e. people that love and enjoy the show but don’t feel the need to do D&D’s work in order to defend the show, but show-apologists, i.e. those who actually prevent reasonable discussions about GoT by attacking all of us who believe ASOIAF deserves a much better adaptation and by suggesting that we should quit watching the show if we don’t like it. I think there’s a difference between being a fan and being an apologist – you’ll maybe agree if you take under consideration the example I brought up in my post, about AFFC/ADWD-hate being responded to in a much different way than GoT-hate is often do. (Guess you’ll understand the world “hate” stands not for actual hate, but for heavy criticism.)

You're lumping in people who like the show and defend it because they like it as "apologists" who just don't get that it's not good.

I have nothing against "reasonable discussions" of the show, in fact that is the reason I come here. It's the hyperbolic vitriol, usually accompanied with condescension, that I have a problem with.

Also I think it's weird that you have a problem with people suggesting that if you don't like it (which you just admitted) that you shouldn't watch it. Like I said, if you just have criticisms that's one thing, but if you out-and-out dislike it and it really bothers you, like many people here claim, then I just don't understand why you would want to suffer from it.

I seriously disliked Alien 3, after being a huge fan of Alien and Aliens, so I never watch that movie and don't plan on seeing any more Alien movies. I grew up loving Transformers and Spider-Man, but I did not like the Transformers or Spider-Man movies, so I didn't watch the sequels and don't intend to. And again I'll point to my experience with The Walking Dead, which is even more relevant. I disliked those things, so I don't subject myself to them anymore. And I definitely don't feel as strongly about those as some people here do about Game of Thrones (except maybe for Alien 3 - that movie pisses me off just thinking about it).

However I don't believe I've ever told anyone to stop watching, I've just said I really don't understand why people do, since it clearly causes them so much mental anguish week after week.

And I really don't appreciate that people call me an "apologist" just because I enjoy the show and defend it and my opinions when I feel it's appropriate. I have my own criticisms, but I don't think they're bad enough to ruin the experience for me like it does for some people here. For instance I though episode 7 was weak and it lacked a satisfying narrative structure, but I didn't think it was out-and-out garbage and I'm not going to throw a fit about it. If I felt about most episodes the way I felt about episode 7 I would stop watching.

[Cas Stark]

I don't know, I find being told over and over that you don't understand the medium of TV, and that, you know, it's an A D A P T A T I O N, so it shouldn't be compared to the books, or that if you aren't a screenwriter you aren't in any position to criticize the show, or being called a book-purist for disagreeing with random illogical changes to be much more condescending than most of the criticism that comes from book readers.

I also don't know why anyone would feel the need to tell someone they should stop watching the show if they're critical of it, surely if one is capable of using a computer, a person would be able to figure that out for themselves and doesn't need to be told by anyone else, least of all an anonymous poster that they should consider not watching because it gives them too much angst.