[Book Spoilers] Sansa and Tyrion

[amilas]

I'm a little nervous to actually start this thread myself, but here goes!

What does everyone think about the Tyrion/Sansa dynamic going on? Clearly this continues Tyrion's "whitewashing" but I, personally, find this a bit enjoyable. We got to see Tyrion's lush side for the first time in ages, and it reminds us that he is NOT perfect. It also reinforces that he is not willing to hurt or use Sansa and that he is afraid of his father.

There was so much going on during the wedding scene. I think it was brilliantly done, even if it didn't adhere completely to canon.

[Grandpa House]

First of all, I understand the Tyrion "whitewashing" because book-Tyrion is waaay too grey of a character for a TV audience to like/connect with him. They needed a (for the most part) "good guy" leading role after Ned died. His flaws are still there, but they are presented as a lot more forgivable.

And more importantly regarding the wedding scene, who else heard them playing "The Bear and the Maiden Fair"?! It was just an instrumental and in the background, but I was all like 'that sounds familiar' and quickly realized it was the same tune the Bolton bannermen had been singing in the other eps.

Also hearing the show-composer's version of the song played on actual instruments had me a lot more "sold" on it, until then I hadn't been a fan of his take just by how it sounded with dudes singing it.

[Tony Soprano]

I thought the whole wedding was great. Both Peter Dinklage and Sophie Turner did a great job, they really made the wedding as awkward as I imagined it was in the books.

I like what they're doing with Tyrion. They're showing viewers that even he has flaws, even he has a dark side, but they're not taking it too far. I liked how he was kind and respectufl to Sansa. Like the poster above me said, Tyrion is the leading " good guy " right now.

[David Selig]

First of all, I understand the Tyrion "whitewashing" because book-Tyrion is waaay too grey of a character for a TV audience to like/connect with him.

No, he's not. There's been plenty of main characters just as bad or worse as book Tyrion who are loved by TV audiences. Nucky Thompson or Tony Soprano for example.

[Minsc]

First of all, I understand the Tyrion "whitewashing" because book-Tyrion is waaay too grey of a character for a TV audience to like/connect with him. They needed a (for the most part) "good guy" leading role after Ned died. His flaws are still there, but they are presented as a lot more forgivable.

I agree in how that is why Mad Men, Breaking Bad, The Sopranos, Deadwood and Dexter all do so terribly in how TV watchers just won't watch a show with grey or dark characters.

Also, might I ask what flaws?

edit: Moreover, it seems like many TV fans have been able to enjoy Theon and Jaime both characters that commit violent crimes against children on the show.

Also, maybe they can focus on Robb, Catelyn, Jon, Dany, Davos, Brienne, Sansa, and Bran if they need lighter characters for fans to root for and connect with like in the books.

[Effie]

I liked the wedding with everything that was going on, including Joffrey being Joffrey and Cersei explaining the song, which of course will be very important next week.

So many people still dislike Sansa because she's not speaking up and acting 'stupid' and 'dull', but especially with her mentioning that she's only 14, this puts all that criticism in perspective. I think Sophie does a remarkable job at playing Sansa.

With Tyrion now being the overall good guy though, I feel most people forget that it's still a horrid thing for Sansa to be married to him, which was a lot clearer in the books.

[The Knight of Flours]

I liked that Sansa told the TV audience she was 14. Next week I look forward to Dany doing the same.

[Minsc]

I liked that Sansa told the TV audience she was 14. Next week I look forward to Dany doing the same.

I think Dany is eighteen because how RR was 18 years in the past, moreover she actually has sex scenes they had to show thus she has to be of age.

[Newstar]

You know, despite all the whitewashing, the various book-show changes, and the wedding night being toned down considerably and whatnot, I don't think the dynamic between the two by the end of 3x08 was very different from where it was in the books, as suggested by the end of the wedding night scene and the morning scene. Sansa is awkward and miserable; Tyrion is awkward and miserable (except for his small smile at Shae); and a grim, strained silence hangs over the proceedings. It seems like their vibe is about what it was pre-Red Wedding.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

I think Dany is eighteen because how RR was 18 years in the past, moreover she actually has sex scenes they had to show thus she has to be of age.

Indeed, she was aged up, but not that much. I think only about 2-3 years max.

[naik2902]

Joffery to sansa - " i suppose it doesnt really matter which lannister puts baby into you. "

i think joffery already started believing himself as a pure lannister and not baratheon.

[six]

You know, despite all the whitewashing, the various book-show changes, and the wedding night being toned down considerably and whatnot, I don't think the dynamic between the two by the end of 3x08 was very different from where it was in the books, as suggested by the end of the wedding night scene and the morning scene. Sansa is awkward and miserable; Tyrion is awkward and miserable (except for his small smile at Shae); and a grim, strained silence hangs over the proceedings. It seems like their vibe is about what it was pre-Red Wedding.

I agree, I think it's a dynamic fairly similar to the books.

However, I wouldn't mind for Sansa to be somewhat conflicted by the fact that while she hates the Lannisters and wants to get away from them, her Lannister's husband isn't actually that bad. Just to give her some emotion other than being clueless and manipulated by others at all times.

[Envie]

Joffery to sansa - " i suppose it doesnt really matter which lannister puts baby into you. "

i think joffery already started believing himself as a pure lannister and not baratheon.

Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that strange line ... he said that and I was thinking "hmm... he's not really supposed to outwardly be a Lannister ... slip of the tongue?" or maybe they did that on purpose to remind viewers of the incest facts just so they'll not forget why Joffrey's claim to the throne is a complete sham.

I felt the wedding scene was done to perfection. I especially liked the addition of Joffrey removing the stool to be a complete douchebag to Tyrion. I thought Tyrion played the drunk scene well though I'll admit I expected him to get back to their room and be completely stone sober to show it was an act to protect both himself as well as Sansa.

One line they left in which always struck me as so pointed in the book was when Sansa said "What if I never want to?" when Tyrion gave her his word he would not bed her until she wanted it. The actors did such a good job of that scene. Tyrion's obvious pain at being reminded of his ugly dwarfism (as well as being a hated Lannister even though he's hated by his own family) was palpable and well done.

And I really hope this thread does not break down into more "whitewashing of Tyrion" crying because that noise has gotten really stale in past weeks. Let it go already.

[Mulled Wino]

Twas probably my favorite tyrion scene so far this season. Loved oleana laughing at the chaos and tywin publicly dressing him and being a dick.

Good thing the producers were reading my complainy posts about the lannisters last 2 weeks and made the proper adjustments

[Greywolf2375]

Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that strange line ... he said that and I was thinking "hmm... he's not really supposed to outwardly be a Lannister ... slip of the tongue?" or maybe they did that on purpose to remind viewers of the incest facts just so they'll not forget why Joffrey's claim to the throne is a complete sham.

It's not really that strange - the Lannisters have always been shown to have an extreme amount of arrogance. Quartering the kings colors with their own in the heraldry is a perfect example of it. It's not that he doesn't think he is a Baratheon, he doesn't care because of the importance put on by being a Lannister.

I felt the wedding scene was done to perfection. I especially liked the addition of Joffrey removing the stool to be a complete douchebag to Tyrion.

I didn't like it. A lot of the awkwardness was there, but I did very much dislike her kneeling - that was one last public show of defiance to the people who killed her father. Having her walk out arm in arm with a small smile on her face and then this really did take away from abhorrence to her situation she has.

[Mulled Wino]

I agree, I think it's a dynamic fairly similar to the books.

However, I wouldn't mind for Sansa to be somewhat conflicted by the fact that while she hates the Lannisters and wants to get away from them, her Lannister's husband isn't actually that bad. Just to give her some emotion other than being clueless and manipulated by others at all times.

id prefer her to be unyielding and loathe everything about all of the lannisters militantly.

[KoishNoish]

I think the wedding was really well done. The music was great and the acting just as good. Honestly Jack Gleeson if I didn't know you were acting as Joffrey... I know some people will be upset Sansa knelt but to me I don't think they could have had her remain standing without her appearing to be a total dick. I mean Tyrion is the fan favorite for the TV show, which is fine, but they couldn't exactly have Sansa do what we could easily understand in the books and transfer it to screen without it looking like simply being a dick. I think the scenes were really well done, just as awkward as I thought it should be (Olenna with Marg and Cersei with Loras didn't exactly help much there) and I couldn't stop laughing after Tyrion just stumbled over and passed out. Excellently done.

Also just as an add-on, some people are upset and think Sansa's character is descending into a bottomless pit of despair and I get where your coming from but if you want 'your' Sansa go read the books again. The TV show is changing some events and characters and I personally have decided to regard the TV show and the books as their own separate works of art. I can still enjoy the TV Show without it having to keep word to word with the books. Whenever I want to go back to the book characters I go back to the books themselves. I just find it an easier mentality. :cool4:

[Mother of Mini Dragons]

I thought it was done really well. I was worried about the Tyrion whitewashing affecting Sansa's emotional arc, but it was still hit both with her mentioning her age and Tyrion get outright drunk and making her already humiliating wedding day even more humiliating.

I wanted to punch Joffrey in the face as soon as he walked up to Sansa in the sept to walk her down. That smug little look on his face! They are also doing a great job of setting up the animosity between Joffrey and Tyrion.

[six]

id prefer her to be unyielding and loathe everything about all of the lannisters militantly.

Yeah, but in the show it will never happen. So I'd rather they showed her conflicted than consistently lost at all times.

[Envie]

It's not really that strange - the Lannisters have always been shown to have an extreme amount of arrogance. Quartering the kings colors with their own in the heraldry is a perfect example of it. It's not that he doesn't think he is a Baratheon, he doesn't care because of the importance put on by being a Lannister.

I didn't like it. A lot of the awkwardness was there, but I did very much dislike her kneeling - that was one last public show of defiance to the people who killed her father. Having her walk out arm in arm with a small smile on her face and then this really did take away from abhorrence to her situation she has.

I agree, the Lannisters are definitely arrogant enough and Joffrey just insane enough to flaunt his parentage even if just in a private threat to Sansa. I guess my real question is, at what point did he change from believing Robert was his father to totally embracing the fact he's a product of incest?

And I guess I shouldn't have said the scene was 'perfection' since yes they did in fact go ahead and have her kneel anyways. I'm thinking this was done to make Tyrion look even more the hero since Joffrey took his stool. I'm sure many will continue gnashing their teeth over this 'whitewashing' theme but I don't really care anymore, I like Tyrion the way they've changed him in the show just fine... much moreso than the way they've changed many other characters like Stannis, Catelyn, etc.