Robert was never the rightful King?

[PrimeRhaegar]

well of course thats why he is the usurper hell even he himself said there are still people that call him so.

[Cersai's Son]

well of course thats why he is the usurper hell even he himself said there are still people that call him so.

Yes Robert is a usurper and not a rightful king. People who invade and take other's kingdom by right of conquest aren't called usurpers.

[OrcusOfUndeath]

Aegon came to conquer Westeros, and he did it. But, his line got weak, and its supporters few. Robert siezed the throne. I don't get this "right of conquest" thing and the rightful king? Then Robb had EVERY right to be King in the North, and Targaryens nor Baratheons have the right to it. Starks have been Kings in the North for 10000 years. First Men won the entire continent of Westeros through conquest.

Robert won his throne through war. And when you win your throne in war, it doesn't matter if it was conquest or civil war. It happened all the time in the real world. Whomever holds the support of the lords and the people is the king.

[Lord Bresteil of the North]

But isn't Jon most likely the rightful heir.

[Dr. Pepper]

I'm reminded of this broseph post.

SSM

I told George that when he changed Viserys I from a son to a brother he created an error in that Baelor's sisters did not inherit the throne after him, George replied that women came after all men in the Targaryen succession after TDWD. Something interesting and neatly explains Daena and the rest not becoming queen.

[devilrob6]

It doens't matter how you get the throne. I think as soon as the whole realm bends the knee to you and accepts you as their king, then you are rightfully the king. Kings have responsibilities and duties to their people, as soon as a king starts neglecting those, and commits cruelties for his own amusement, the people that serve him have the right to get rid him (happens to dictators all the time).

And that's what happened. Robert is the king because the Lords of the realm accepted him as their king. History is written by the winners, and Robert won. He was the rightful king and his heir is the rightful king after he died.

[Lonin]

Robert was an "usurper" who took the throne by force of arms. History is full usurpers who went on to found dynasties. Force of arms is not the same as 'right of conquest'.

Here is an interesting list of usurpers. http://en.wikipedia....ist_of_usurpers

[Maxpey]

deleted post.

Sorry

[mattah84]

I don't think rights of conquest applies here. It was a rebellion and not an invasion. If it was about right of conquest Robert wouldn't be needing to have Targ blood to become king. He got the thrones because of targ blood but there is still someone else with Targ blood ahead of him in pecking order to the throne.

Robert did win the throne by Right of Conquest. His Targaryen Blood definitely helped to give him a claim to the throne over Eddard Stark and Jon Arryn, but the rebellion, a.k.a. the conquest of Aerys Targaryen and his loyalists, had to take place for him to get there. I tend to think Aegon I was much more of a conqueror than Robert Baratheon was, but Robert still won the throne by right of conquest.

[WhatIsDeadMayNeverLive]

I don't think rights of conquest applies here. It was a rebellion and not an invasion. If it was about right of conquest Robert wouldn't be needing to have Targ blood to become king. He got the thrones because of targ blood but there is still someone else with Targ blood ahead of him in pecking order to the throne.

We can argue about whether the right of conquest applies or not for days, but in a feudal society there was no such thing as a "rightful king". The king was the one who got the lords to swear fealty to him. Traditionally that was the rightful heir (note the difference between king and heir), but if the lords thought he was not fit to rule his claim meant nothing. In a feudal world, the support of powerful lords is everything and claim in itself is nothing.

[Knight Of Winter]

A person who sits on the Iron Throne and whose subjects call him "King" is rightfully the King. Full stop.

[quote name=WhatIsDeadMayNeverLive' timestamp='1369251097' pos

t='4478603]

We can argue about whether the right of conquest applies or not for days, but in a feudal society there was no such thing as a "rightful king". The king was the one who got the lords to swear fealty to him.

[King Aerys the Just]

Amen to that. Some people here seem to believe as if interharence rules are not man-made (and thus prone to change by men), but almost divine - that no matter what Westerosi do or believe, there will always by "divine" law which makes Targs "rightful" kings. To put it simply:

• Who recognized Aerys as overlord? Everyone - hence he was the king.
  
• Who recognized Robert as overlord? Everyone - hence he was the king.
  
• Who recognized Viserys as overlord? Noone - hence what exactly is his right to call himself king? What makes him "rightful"?
  

Skip the "almost" and you sum up the common medieval view on kings, nobility and ruling pretty well...

That it sometimes didn't work like this in practice doesn't really matter, since this is a moral topic due to it being about what is "rightful".

[viking warrior]

He smashed Targ armies with his own,He caved in the chest of the crown prince,he won it by conquest,he couldn't keep it though,He did not leave an heir which makes him sort of a military dictator more than rightful monarch.

A king is exactly that, a military dictator.

[Cersai's Son]

Amen to that. Some people here seem to believe as if interharence rules are not man-made (and thus prone to change by men), but almost divine - that no matter what Westerosi do or believe, there will always by "divine" law which makes Targs "rightful" kings. To put it simply:

• Who recognized Aerys as overlord? Everyone - hence he was the king.
  
• Who recognized Robert as overlord? Everyone - hence he was the king.
  
• Who recognized Viserys as overlord? Noone - hence what exactly is his right to call himself king? What makes him "rightful"?
  

So does that make joffrey a rightful king? NO. He is king based on a lie that he is a Baratheon. Robert became king based on having Targ blood, but there were others with targ blood ahead of Robert in line. Robert is a usurper.

[Thor Odinson]

Absolutely spot on. This is why he is called the Usurper.

Because he was a usurper. And he usurped the throne. The throne that belongs to Dany.

It belongs to Daenerys why? Because she inherited it from her family, who themselves usurped the rightful rules of the kings who reigned in Westeros for THOUSANDS of years before? So why is Robert a usurper for taking the crown by force, when the Targaryens themselves took their crown by force, stealing it away from the Kings of the Vale, the North, the Reach, the Westerlands, the Stormlands, and the Iron Islands?

[King Aerys the Just]

It belongs to Daenerys why? Because she inherited it from her family, who themselves usurped the rightful rules of the kings who reigned in Westeros for THOUSANDS of years before? So why is Robert a usurper for taking the crown by force, when the Targaryens themselves took their crown by force, stealing it away from the Kings of the Vale, the North, the Reach, the Westerlands, the Stormlands, and the Iron Islands?

Aegon hadn't sworn any oaths of service or loyalty to the Kings of Westeros. Robert Baratheon betrayed and killed his liege lords.

[viking warrior]

Aegon hadn't sworn any oaths of service or loyalty to the Kings of Westeros. Robert Baratheon betrayed and killed his liege lords.

His liege lords son kidnapped his to-be wife, his leige lord burned his subject for no good reason, when you swear fealty, you will support them, and they will protect you. The mad king broke the oath, not Robert.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Aegon hadn't sworn any oaths of service or loyalty to the Kings of Westeros. Robert Baratheon betrayed and killed his liege lords.

Fealty is a sword that cuts in two directions (even though the Mad King tried to ignore that to his sorrow). I think it's safe to say that Robert's "liege" broke it first.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Aegon hadn't sworn any oaths of service or loyalty to the Kings of Westeros. Robert Baratheon betrayed and killed his liege lords.

The same was often true every time a new dynasty emerged in civilizations across history, and yet the power transfers were made and succession was deemed legitimate after the fact.

You're also wrong about medieval European succession being viewed as a uniform, unalterable divine grant. While power was seen as divinely accorded, succession rules in European kingdoms changed throughout the years and were not uniform between kingdoms.

It is always the case that the rules of succession are decided by he who wields the most power. That doesn't mean that kings in new dynasties can completely abandon the old order, but they can and did tweak it. In Robert's case, he gave a nod to the old order, but he was free to alter succession to put himself at the top because he WON A CIVIL WAR. He had the largest martial powerbase with his allies, popularity among the smallfolk, a desire to be King (we don't know if the same was true for Ned and Jon Arryn), and a tenuous connection to the old order. Through this power, he was able to make the rules. He therefore became the rightful king.

By your logic and OP's logic, you might as well have told revolutionaries in the French Revolution that they wrongfully deposed the French royal family, because, *golly gee* they defied the French royals’ rules of succession. When you lose a civil war, your rules go out the window.

[Cersai's Son]

By your logic and OP's logic, you might as well have told revolutionaries in the French Revolution that they wrongfully deposed the French royal family, because, *golly gee* they defied the French royals’ rules of succession. When you lose a civil war, your rules go out the window.

but the rebels didn't abandon the rules. they made robert king based on the fact that he had targ blood. if they just made stark, arryan or robert king just because they won then yeah it would be right of conquest, but they used the targ bloodline excuse.