Surprising Lannister ancestor?

[Maia]

So, the world book is apparently supposed to reveal a surprising ancestor of the current Lannister crop. Who could that be?

And no, IMHO, it could not be Aerys, because such a massive reveal would have been reserved for a proper ASOIAF installment.

Posted 34 minutes ago

Arataniello, on Today, 08:26 AM, said:

I am wondering if it will turn out to be a desecendant of one of three Princesses in the Maidenvault. One of them had several offspring after the death of Baelor the Blessed.

Hm... but wouldn't Lannisters having a Targaryen ancestor have been a common knowledge, then? I actually thought that it made sense for them to intermarry with Plumms, for instance, and it might have explained some things about Tyrion's Targaryen-like traits and Cersei's new-found love of wildfire without involving Aerys, but would it really be that surprising?

And wasn't Aerys's stated objection to Cersei match her lack of Targaryen blood?

IMHO, it has to be something more explosive and something they'd want to keep hidden. It would make sense for them to have a Targ ancestor, but one they'd prefer not to aknowledge, even vis-a-vis Aerys's predilections. A bastard and a non-Blackfyre one at that.

Like... maybe it was Jeyne Waters, a bastard child of Elaena with her cousin the admiral? Or a child of one of those Butterwell maidens "honored" by Aegon the Unworthy? Etc. And this ancestor would have had to come through Joanna's line for it to be successfully concealed, because Tywin's would be well known.

Ditto connection with any other Great House - if it was a conventional match, it would have been known and mentioned in the books.

A completely out of the left field possibility, given the unusual color of Tywin's eyes, would be a Naathi ancestor for him. OTOH, I don't see how it would provide anything of interest to the story.

[Gurkhal]

I think that a Targaryen ancestor is very likely but then again over 300 years most Great Houses have probably at one time or another intermarried with the royal family. I would be mightly suprised if there has not been a Lannister-Targaryen marriage at one point or another in history.

Now what I think might be for a more dramatic effect would be for the Starks and Lannisters to have intermarried at one point or another. But then again its probably kind of expected to have the two of them have some common ancestery due to being enemies now, so that might not be it either.

[Lord Varys]

I'd it find it much more funny if Tywin's or Tytos's mother was a Stark/Martell/Tyrell/Greyjoy, some of the houses the Lannisters are now fighting against. Thus far removed such a kinship would no longer matter all that much. That is, as long as Tywin's mother was not Baratheon. Then Cersei may actually be heir to her children and/or to Shireen.

A Targaryen in the recent past is quite unlikely, I think, since Tywin would most likely not press Aerys all that much for a royal match when he himself was son/grandson of a Targaryen.

More likely - and actually not so surprising - would be the revelation if Tywin was half/quarter Reyne or Tarbeck. They were among the most powerful houses of the West, and thus they could have delivered brides to the Casterly Rock. This could complicate the chain of events leading to Tywin's move against Castamere and Tarbeck Hall. We have to keep in mind that Tywin's mother apparently was already dead when Tywin moved against the Reynes/Tarbecks, and considering his personality he would have ignored the fact that he himself was closely related to the rebelling family if his mother/grandmother was already dead.

[Maia]

I don't think that there was a lot of intermarriage with Targaryens, at least not in the direction of Targaryen women marrying into the Great Houses. Wasn't the whole reason for Aerys sending Lord Steffon Baratheon on the search for a bride for Rhaegar and when that failed picking Elia, that he wanted a daughter-in-law with Targaryen blood?

IMHO, Princess Elaena was an exception, purposefully married to a relatively low-status noble, to make it impossible for her to make a bid for the crown, but have her breed descendants that could be married back into the main line, if the need arose.

Anyway, wasn't it hinted that it was a fairly recent ancestor? Surely, Lannisters being openly related to Targaryens or Starks would have been brought up at some point in the books? Particularly when killings and such were considered.

P.S. If Tywin had recent Reyne/Tarbeck blood, people would have been saying that Tyrion was his punishment for kinslaying rather than "pride".

IMHO, this ancestor would have been either somebody that Lannisters were ashamed of and concealed, or a Baratheon, which would be deeply ironic, because it would open a door for one of Cersei's kids to be legitimate and her being an even more gigantic dumbass re: her dealings with Ned and the rumors than she seemed so far. And that Ned wasn't far behind, heh. And Stannis... Some delicious mental acrobatics there, to be sure. But then, one of the things that made him completely certain was Arryn's murder...

Greyjoy? Why would it be surprising, exactly? Martell/Tyrell should have been mentioned before now, it would feel like a plot-hole.

I still feel that it would have been funny if Tywin was descended from a supremely peaceful, butterfly-worshipping Naathi, but a Targ bastard or a Baratheon ancestor for Joanna would have much richer implications.

[SeanF]

Given what a snob Tywin is, I'd love it if his mother was one of the smallfolk.

In fact, that might explain why Tywin is such a ferocious snob.

[Walder Waters]

Given what a snob Tywin is, I'd love it if his mother was one of the smallfolk.

In fact, that might explain why Tywin is such a ferocious snob.

Maybe even a whore?

[J. Stargaryen]

I'd it find it much more funny if Tywin's or Tytos's mother was a Stark/Martell/Tyrell/Greyjoy, some of the houses the Lannisters are now fighting against. Thus far removed such a kinship would no longer matter all that much. That is, as long as Tywin's mother was not Baratheon. Then Cersei may actually be heir to her children and/or to Shireen.

A Targaryen in the recent past is quite unlikely, I think, since Tywin would most likely not press Aerys all that much for a royal match when he himself was son/grandson of a Targaryen.

More likely - and actually not so surprising - would be the revelation if Tywin was half/quarter Reyne or Tarbeck. They were among the most powerful houses of the West, and thus they could have delivered brides to the Casterly Rock. This could complicate the chain of events leading to Tywin's move against Castamere and Tarbeck Hall. We have to keep in mind that Tywin's mother apparently was already dead when Tywin moved against the Reynes/Tarbecks, and considering his personality he would have ignored the fact that he himself was closely related to the rebelling family if his mother/grandmother was already dead.

I think this is a neat idea, and would make sense on some levels. I also agree with the people who say that a recent Lannister-Targaryen pairing probably should have already been mentioned.

[AegonSnow]

The ancient Lannister ancestor was.....

(drumroll)

A Stark.

I would Lol if Tyrion's ancestor was Dunk.

[Fat Mac]

More likely - and actually not so surprising - would be the revelation if Tywin was half/quarter Reyne or Tarbeck. They were among the most powerful houses of the West, and thus they could have delivered brides to the Casterly Rock. This could complicate the chain of events leading to Tywin's move against Castamere and Tarbeck Hall. We have to keep in mind that Tywin's mother apparently was already dead when Tywin moved against the Reynes/Tarbecks, and considering his personality he would have ignored the fact that he himself was closely related to the rebelling family if his mother/grandmother was already dead.

I like this idea... however, wouldn't Tywin be named kinslayer by many if the Reynes/Tarbecks were his mothers family?

[Danelle]

I like this idea... however, wouldn't Tywin be named kinslayer by many if the Reynes/Tarbecks were his mothers family?

I agree. I think that it would be one more reason to loathe and mistrust Tywin. Lord Karstark is a good example. A very distant relative to the Starks he called Robb a kinslayer. Tywin's mother or grandmother being a Reyne or a Tarbeck, would strengthen their claim to the Rock and give one more motive to rebel against Tytos. If this was true, then Ned would have likely mentioned the kinslaying in the first book, when he ponders about the Lannisters.

I also think that a Targaryen ancestor is not that surprising but that would still make Tywin a kinslayer for killing Elia's babies. Also, Aerys's excuse for not marrying Cersei to Rhaegar would not make sense.

A crackpot theory is that Lannisters are related to Bloodraven.

Perhaps, after giving birth to Bloodraven, Mylessa married a Lannister. Once Delena Florent gave birth to Edrik Storm, she married again and had children with her husband as well. The Blackwoods are an ancient House, descended from the First Men and, just like the Lannisters, they used to be KIngs. A connection between Lannisters and Bloodraven would also explain Jaime's weird dreams.

[lojzelote]

Personally, I think that Karstark was stretching it. A drawning man catches at a straw and all that.

E.g., Robert and Rhaegar were second cousins, but no one ever calls Robert a kinslayer.

[Top Notch Balanter]

Personally, I think that Karstark was stretching it. A drawning man catches at a straw and all that.

E.g., Robert and Rhaegar were second cousins, but no one ever calls Robert a kinslayer.

No but Rhaegar always called him cousin so there was some bond between them.

Back on topic i presume if it's to do with Tywin then his mother is possibly Lowborn or even a whore. IMO it would be pretty mad/neat if Tywins mother and Ned's mother turned out to be sisters

[Lord Varys]

Tywin would be totally in denial if he was a kinslayer. And technically he wouldn't be - the Reynes and Tarbecks he dealt with would most likely be only cousins, distant cousins even, if he was only grandson of a Reyne/Tarbeck. And since they betrayed their liege lord executing them would not be a crime, despite the fact that it was technically kinslaying.

But the fact that the rebels were his own kin could explain why Lord Tytos was reluctant to deal with them harshly.

[Maia]

Tywin would be totally in denial if he was a kinslayer.

True, but the populace wouldn't be. I mean, consider all the rumors about Tyrion when he was born and how Tyrion was supposed to be Tywin's punishment from the gods for his "pride". Surely, if there was even a wiff of kinslaying about Tywin's most notorious acts up to that point, it would have been seen as a more compelling reason for such punishment? Not to mention that Tarbecks/Reynes probably would have screamed about it in their last moments, if Rickard Karstark was any guide.

And since they betrayed their liege lord executing them would not be a crime, despite the fact that it was technically kinslaying.

But don't the Night's Watch and the Silent Sisters exist for situations like these? If either of the rebel Houses were close enough relatives (and mother/grandmother would qualify, IMHO), the House could have been irrevocably eradicated without Tywin becoming a kinslayer. It would have been a rather elegant warning for closer relatives against getting ideas, in fact.

It just seems to me that a large House like the Lannisters, with a lot of cousinly branches, etc. would need to be very strict on the kinslaying taboo in order to avoid internecine power struggles.

[The Sleeper]

During Dunk's time Starks and Lannisters joined forces to fight Dagon Greyjoy. It is very likely that a marriage came out of it.

[Maia]

E.g., Robert and Rhaegar were second cousins, but no one ever calls Robert a kinslayer.

IMHO, it is the artefact of Martin's post-AGOT change to how closely Baratheons and Targaryens were supposed to be related. But in the view of all the troubles that Baratheon dynasty has been experiencing lately, somebody should have mentioned it by now. Maybe it will be used in Aegon's propaganda?

Second cousin isn't distantly enough related to be completely overlooked, IMHO. Borderline, perhaps. Many Westerosi noble families keep landless cousinly branches, as we have seen, and would need some cultural protection against them. Karstark was too distantly related to signify, obviously.

But the fact that the rebels were his own kin could explain why Lord Tytos was reluctant to deal with them harshly.

But wasn't he a doormat, who was reluctant to deal with _anybody_ harshly, whether related or not?

During Dunk's time Starks and Lannisters joined forces to fight Dagon Greyjoy. It is very likely that a marriage came out of it.

Unlikely, IMHO, as something like this should have come up before. And unlike with Targs, there is really no compelling reason to change it. But maybe another Northern House? Like... Manderly? Which resulted in all those corpulent Lannisters? Tytos, Genna, etc. Also, Wyman Manderly seemed to be surprisingly equanimous about the Lannisters in ADwD.

From the other thread:

The text says: "Grand Maester Malleon recorded the last mating between stag and lion, some ninety years ago, when Tya Lannister wed Gowen Baratheon, third son of the reigning lord.

But wasn't the book itself about that old? I.e. this could have been the last such union that the book recorded, but not the last to actually happen, no? I am fairly certain that the book was described as quite old.

Eleana Targaryen was born at year 150, and lived for many years. Even if she had Jeyne late in her life, let's say at year 190, it's still to early to make her the mother of Tywin or Joanna (Tywin was born in 243).

That's a pity, I really liked this possibility, it would have explained so much. Maybe Jeyne was their grandmother? Supposing the genealogy goes that far...

[Lord Varys]

No one seems to care all that much about this kinslayer thing if you don't murder your immediate family (i.e. your parents, children, siblings). Cousins don't count if Rhaegar and Robert are any proof. And more importantly, the whole kinslayer topic is not brought up that regularly, nor does it matter all that much if the relative you slew was a traitor/on the losing side.

As to Tytos: Yes, he was not the best lord in the world, but I still doubt that a Lord of Casterly Rock can completely incompetent. Tytos would have to do something if he gets attacked or is completely ignored by his vassals. If some of the rebels were kin to him he would have acted even more reluctant than usually.

It would also add another layer to Tywin's issues with his father if he was descended from a vassal family of House Lannister.

By the way, the fact that Ran/Linda mentioned this whole thing in connection to the introduction of House Reyne in the show strongly indicates that the Lannisters and Reynes may have been related. And we know that Tytos' wife was already dead during the last years of his life, perhaps even longer since we can reasonably assume that Tytos did not choose a mistress while he was still mourning his wife. Cersei and Jaime were one year old when Tytos died, and Tywin crushed the Reynes and Tarbecks while his father was still alive. Considering that this would be ancient history in the story of the novels, and considering that Jon Connington and Barristan Selmy are the first really old POV characters with important knowledge about major events, it is not surprising that no one has brought up this topic yet. Summerhall and the War of the Ninepenny Kings is not that ancient history as well, just as the War of the Usurper is. But to discuss those things you have to be in the head of somebody who is connected to it.

[History of Westeros]

During Dunk's time Starks and Lannisters joined forces to fight Dagon Greyjoy. It is very likely that a marriage came out of it.

I made this same point but I don't see my post anywhere. Maybe a different thread. Anyway, I wouldn't call it "highly likely" but I definitely think it's possible.

On the subject of a Reyne ancestor. The normal pattern is for a Great Lord to marry his kids to his top vassals, and we all know House Reyne was #2 in the West for a long time.

So I'd like to make the case that the it's unlikely that there *aren't* Reyne-Lannister marriages in the past. In fact, it's likely that there were several such marriages.

Which leads me to ask: is a Reyne ancestor really a "surprise" considering that very standard pattern of #1 House making matches with #2 House?

I think Reyne ancestors are to be *expected*.

[JLE]

By "surprising" in terms of ancestry, I would guess that this means "an ancestor who isn't officially on the books" - i.e. someone whose true father is not the real father, the child being technically a bastard but believed (publicly at least) to be trueborn.

One obvious theory being, of course, that Jaime and Cersei are the children of King Aerys rather than Tywin Lannister, but even Tywin believes them his own because at least they have the good fortune to resemble House Lannister (the resemblance obviously being to their mother rather than their father.) Of course, resembling one's mother's family seems to be fairly common - most of Ned Stark's children look more like Tullys than Starks, only Arya and Jon looking like Starks. (And of course there are the alternative theories as to WHICH of Jon's parents was really the Stark one...)

That theory, of course, might seem "too obvious" to people on this group, but then, R+L=J is pretty much believed here, but we're very much in a minority, and you'd be surprised at how many people have NOT picked up on any clues towards it. "Aerys + Joanna = Jaime and Cersei" would be not obvious at all to most.

However... if it's not that...

I wonder if *Tywin* is really the son of Tytos. His father was quite openly playing away, with a mistress: I wonder if the mother was also messing around while father was away...

[lojzelote]

By "surprising" in terms of ancestry, I would guess that this means "an ancestor who isn't officially on the books" - i.e. someone whose true father is not the real father, the child being technically a bastard but believed (publicly at least) to be trueborn.

One obvious theory being, of course, that Jaime and Cersei are the children of King Aerys rather than Tywin Lannister, but even Tywin believes them his own because at least they have the good fortune to resemble House Lannister (the resemblance obviously being to their mother rather than their father.) Of course, resembling one's mother's family seems to be fairly common - most of Ned Stark's children look more like Tullys than Starks, only Arya and Jon looking like Starks. (And of course there are the alternative theories as to WHICH of Jon's parents was really the Stark one...)

That theory, of course, might seem "too obvious" to people on this group, but then, R+L=J is pretty much believed here, but we're very much in a minority, and you'd be surprised at how many people have NOT picked up on any clues towards it. "Aerys + Joanna = Jaime and Cersei" would be not obvious at all to most.

However... if it's not that...

I wonder if *Tywin* is really the son of Tytos. His father was quite openly playing away, with a mistress: I wonder if the mother was also messing around while father was away...

It's meant to be the *official* history of Westeros, as in, the scrolls of maesters, no?

No secret bastardy, imo.