[ADWD Spoiler] Jon's Vows Loophole

[silentstark]

Okay so I tried to post this and it got taken down after a few people commented, and I think it was because of a lack of spoiler alerts :blushing: sorry it's my first thread. So:

DO NOT READ UNLESS YOU HAVE FINISHED A DANCE WITH DRAGONS

Topic:

Jon has died. Does this void his Night's Watch Vows if he comes back to life? I saw this as a way to free Jon to go do other stuff. My reasoning and I will quote the vow at the end.

The idea is to discuss the effect of Jon's death on his Night's Watch Vows.

Rules:

No debating if Jon has died or if he will come back to life, there are other threads about this. ASSUME: Jon is dead and somehow comes back to life so we can discuss possibilities, only include how he will be resurrected if it changes your interpretation of the following possibilities:

1. Jon's Watch has ended. Now he can go after fake-Arya, be AA, be King, join the Wildlings, marry Dany, still fight Others or whatever else people hope for Jon.

2. Jon has a choice, and wants to stay with the Night's Watch

3. Jon has no choice, he is stuck with the Night's Watch until he's dead permanently, "for this and all night's to come".

- Or he pretends to be fully dead and sneaks away (but I see blowing up in his face, and he'd be a deserter)

Quote is from the wiki, emphasis is mine:

When the recruits are considered ready to take the black, they say their vows either in a sept or before a heart tree. The vows are as follows:

"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come."

It's customary to finish a black brother's eulogy with the words, "And now his watch is ended."

The vow puts the beginning and end of the time for the vow before it puts all the things he can't do or have. Does that make it conditional? If Jon has died on the wall like he has, is his vow fulfilled and now void? I have no personal feelings about what I want it to be, this idea just got in my head as a way Jon could be free to move around.

Or he could just be injured I know there are lot's of theories/possibilities, let's just focus on how his vow is effected.

So please any thoughts I'd love to hear them

[Zorpack]

Well this is interesting and well thought out. So congrats. However......

I often think that GRRM may just be writing Jon as a rebel. From the start he has acted on will and though it was subsided for sometime he always thinks willfully despite acting on it. Whether he dies and is reborn or is injured... I think he may still "choose" or assume position with the Night's Watch and do whatever he is going to do regardless. Especially now that his black brothers have betrayed him. Whatever is happening directly after Jon calls for Ghost... I am pretty positive that Tormund and the rest of the Wildings go in to some sort of killing rage, cutting their way through anyone who might hurt Jon and trying to protect his injured or dying body. So who's to say he doesn't awake and claim himself as still the Lord Commander and take who's ever left of the loyal black brothers and the wildings and claim his "new" nights watch....and his "new" unbinding to the traditional vows, way of doing things. A few Lord Commander's make me think it's possible the Jon Snow will betray his vows further is in part by the story of the 13 th Lord Commander, Night's King who fell in love with the wight, and Lord Commander's Robin Hill, Tristan Mudd and Mad Marq Rankenfell....ALL of whom betray their vows for one reason or another and none for the good. This proves it not so rare that a Lord Commander of the Night's Watch to betray their vows. However, for Jon, it may not be so dooming as he has a good heart and good intention.

I dunno, what do you think?

[silentstark]

I think it's a very good twist. I never thought of the possibility that Jon would try to restructure the Watch from within. I think there's definitely evidence for that by allowing women to have one of the NW castles. He could definitely change the meaning and rules in the vow of the NW if he comes back with that attitude. I like it!

[howardh51]

Like the thought.

Also, Jon has actually fulfilled his vow(s) once he dies.

It shall not end until my death - Check

I shall live and die at my post - Check

I am the fire that burns against the cold - Check (killed a walker using fire)

I pledge my life (gave his life up) and honor to the Night's Watch - Check

[Lady Nastja]

Like the thought.

Also, Jon has actually fulfilled his vow(s) once he dies.

It shall not end until my death - Check

I shall live and die at my post - Check

I am the fire that burns against the cold - Check (killed a walker using fire)

I pledge my life (gave his life up) and honor to the Night's Watch - Check

Oooh, I never considered that. Thank you :)

[Abel]

i´m taking up the thought of howard51....

these ones are maybe yet to come - and most likely get a check too:

I am the fire that burns against the cold, - i´m not a fan of the fire resurecting theory, but well might come...what better against the Others than burning form inside....

the light that brings the dawn, - wailing a light sword....

the horn that wakes the sleepers, - now it gets crackpot but the horn could wake some dragons instead of giants in the common sense

the shield that guards the realms of men

and if dawn came and the watch no longer is needed he´s free to go anyway....

[lostinwesteros]

In the discussion between Catelyn and Robb concerning his will, while they were en route to The Twins, Catelyn objects to Robb's naming Jon Snow as an heir on several counts, one of which is that he is a sworn brother of the Night's Watch and as such is sworn to take no wife and hold no lands, that those who take the black serve for life. Robb responds, "So do the knights of the Kingsguard. That didn't stop the Lannisters from stripping the white cloaks from Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Boras Blount when they had no more use for them. If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon's place, I'll wager they find some way to release him from his vows." Remember, too, that Jon broke his vows with Ygritte while with the Wildlings. Ergo, he doesn't have to die to be released from his vows, IMHO.

Just assuming , for the sake of argument, that Jon did die as a result of his stab wounds, any 'resurrection' necessarily involves his starting out in a 'dead' state and ending up in an 'alive' state again. Don't think GRRM will keep using the 'undead' plot device - he's a much more skilled and creative writer than that.

[Where Boars Glow]

Jon could have left the watch legally with a Kings pardon. He could have been made heir of Winterfell by the rightfull King.

Jon doesn't need a semantic loophole. His honor is what keeps him at the wall. Not the lettering of Nights watch vows on wikapedia. :)

[lovethyjaime]

Okay so I tried to post this and it got taken down after a few people commented, and I think it was because of a lack of spoiler alerts :blushing: sorry it's my first thread. So:

DO NOT READ UNLESS YOU HAVE FINISHED A DANCE WITH DRAGONS

Topic:

Jon has died. Does this void his Night's Watch Vows if he comes back to life? I saw this as a way to free Jon to go do other stuff. My reasoning and I will quote the vow at the end.

The idea is to discuss the effect of Jon's death on his Night's Watch Vows.

Rules:

No debating if Jon has died or if he will come back to life, there are other threads about this. ASSUME: Jon is dead and somehow comes back to life so we can discuss possibilities, only include how he will be resurrected if it changes your interpretation of the following possibilities:

1. Jon's Watch has ended. Now he can go after fake-Arya, be AA, be King, join the Wildlings, marry Dany, still fight Others or whatever else people hope for Jon.

2. Jon has a choice, and wants to stay with the Night's Watch

3. Jon has no choice, he is stuck with the Night's Watch until he's dead permanently, "for this and all night's to come".

- Or he pretends to be fully dead and sneaks away (but I see blowing up in his face, and he'd be a deserter)

Quote is from the wiki, emphasis is mine:

The vow puts the beginning and end of the time for the vow before it puts all the things he can't do or have. Does that make it conditional? If Jon has died on the wall like he has, is his vow fulfilled and now void? I have no personal feelings about what I want it to be, this idea just got in my head as a way Jon could be free to move around.

Or he could just be injured I know there are lot's of theories/possibilities, let's just focus on how his vow is effected.

So please any thoughts I'd love to hear them

i read some briliant theory about the cold that Jon felt was the others coming. before you go off telling me no way because the magic at the wall and yada yada, keep in mind that the magic at the wall is only there if the watch stays true. so if Jon comes back, i don't think there will be a nights watch left anyway.

[silentstark]

I definitely agree that it's Jon's own honor that keeps him there. Maybe viewing his vow as fulfilled is as important for letting himself off the hook as well as the NW having an excuse to let him go. But I also agree that it's equally likely that there could be no NW by the end of the series.

BUT @lovethyJaime I disagree with your cold being attributed the others. There's another thread somewhere (does anyone know) that talks about this being the same imagery used in the beginning of the book when SIx-Skins dies and enters his wolf. And I think cold is also the general feeling attributed to massive blood loss? Also I don't think that the NW has to stay "true" in order to keep the magic of the wall. Do you remember where you're getting that from? Because I thought the NW has a history of internal skirmishes, so that magic would have been long deteriorated (I mean NIght's KIng is about as untrue as it gets). :dunno:

[JimZipCode]

Jon could have left the watch legally with a Kings pardon. He could have been made heir of Winterfell by the rightfull King.

Jon doesn't need a semantic loophole. His honor is what keeps him at the wall. Not the lettering of Nights watch vows on wikapedia. :)

This. Also Jon has an army of Wildlings to go with his King's pardon. If he wants to go to Winterfell, who's going to stop him? If we wants to return to the Wall to fight Others after he's taken care of business with Ramsey, who's going to reject him?

[theotherstaketheothers]

I agree that Jon will stay at the wall. He may have a few options open to him however he will do what is right, he let the wildlings in because he know this is the true role of the Nights Watch - to protect man from the others - and that includes wildlings. I can't see him making choices based on monetary or power gain or even for love for his family. His fight is with the Others, not Kings Landing. He is a true stark....wherever the Stark blood comes from ;)

[Raining Blood Magic]

I don't think he would need a loophole to get out of the NW after his men tried to kill him. If he lives somehow I am sure they would probably just let him leave. Forgive and forget you know?