Littlefingers In The Air Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Renly had the larger army and a seasoned commander like Randyll Tarly to lead his troops, if Renly so chooses. (Yes, I know he had Loras commanding) Stannis didn't seem to have a way to hold back his brother. Do you see any way that things don't end with Renly taking Kings Landing if he lived? Did GRRM just use him as filler? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair's Pantaloons Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 He HAD to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefingers In The Air Posted May 25, 2013 Author Share Posted May 25, 2013 He HAD to die. I look through the story and I'm like shit, there's no way he doesn't take the throne if he lives. I'm trying to figure out if anything could have been done to stop him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Stannis using a shadowbaby later on? Dany showing up and roasting him? Tywin organising some form of assassination? Euron blowing his Faceless Man egg on Renly rather than Balon?If he needed to die, GRRM would've found a way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair's Pantaloons Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 I look through the story and I'm like shit, there's no way he doesn't take the throne if he lives. I'm trying to figure out if anything could have been done to stop him. Perhaps the dragons and the Others but the dragons are out of control and their owner has no clue. I think Renly would have swept the South (would have been united with the North) and eventually been claimed by winter since the Night's Watch would have been beaten without Stannis' aid and Stannis is either dead or a prisoner if he doesn't have a Shadow Baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevumar Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Perhaps Aegon's arrival or Dorne's alliance with one Targaryen factor or the other. At some point, Renly's hubris and inexperience would catch up with him if he hadn't realized how important it would be to surround himself with experts. He could've only been an effective leader by realizing his limitations and trying to compensate for him. Renly doesn't show much evidence that he's particularly inclined toward reflection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Damian Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Probably nobody. He had the numbers and Tywin had no allies. tywin could not have hoped to stop them from taking Kings Landing. He, like Robb, had to to removed or our massive struggle for the the iron throne and kingdom of the North would have been concluded by the end of book 2 into book 3. Stannis and Mel stopped Renly (Rightly so, Renly was completely in the wrong). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Aerys the Just Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 He could always have fucked up or gotten unlucky and died in some battle on his way to King's Landing, regardless of if his huge army eventually won it or not. Things did look very good for him up until he got assassinated though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dornishman's Wife Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 I agree that had Renly lived, he would have won the Crown by a fair margin.Terribly bad news for Varys of course, because the realm would have been much too unified after that for Aegon to march in - in effect Varys would need another succession crisis to ripen the realm. This is why I don't think he'd have stayed alive to enjoy his victory too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefingers In The Air Posted May 25, 2013 Author Share Posted May 25, 2013 Exactly how close was Renlys camp to KL? What's a real world example of the distance between them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Mac Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Exactly how close was Renlys camp to KL? What's a real world example of the distance between them?I'd say about 300ish miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefingers In The Air Posted May 25, 2013 Author Share Posted May 25, 2013 I need to study a map of Westeros, I've no idea of its terrain except for the North and Dorne. I think more than likely an assassin of the Iron Throne would sneak into Renlys ranks before he hits KL and that'd be all for the founder of the Rainbow Guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterz Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 an assassin from the IT? Unlikely.First, he would've to be pretty good to go through a giant host and murder their guarded leader so we must assume he wouldn't be any cheap.Second, had the IT murdered Renly the Reach and the Stormlands would've allied with Stannis and then Joff is bye baby gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerStinger Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Renly might have captured the King's Landing, but he would still have many problems and I don't think people would stop opposing him. He still had to overcome Stannis and Rob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefingers In The Air Posted May 25, 2013 Author Share Posted May 25, 2013 an assassin from the IT? Unlikely.First, he would've to be pretty good to go through a giant host and murder their guarded leader so we must assume he wouldn't be any cheap.Second, had the IT murdered Renly the Reach and the Stormlands would've allied with Stannis and then Joff is bye baby gone. they could probably have hired a faceless man to do it. Hell, they had one in the prisons so they could have used him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefingers In The Air Posted May 25, 2013 Author Share Posted May 25, 2013 Renly might have captured the King's Landing, but he would still have many problems and I don't think people would stop opposing him. He still had to overcome Stannis and Rob. I think Robb really just wanted independence from the IT so if he could have worked that out with Renly, and it's feasible, he would have worked with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerStinger Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 I think Robb really just wanted independence from the IT so if he could have worked that out with Renly, and it's feasible, he would have worked with him.But would Renly grant Robb independence? And if he didn't, would Robb ever consent to kneeling before a usurper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drunkard Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 they could probably have hired a faceless man to do it. Hell, they had one in the prisons so they could have used him.They're incredibly costly.I think Robb really just wanted independence from the IT so if he could have worked that out with Renly, and it's feasible, he would have worked with him.Renly made his feelings on Robb's independance very clear when Catelyn met with him. He could keep his title, but it would be an empty one. The North would be no more free than before. Robb wouldn't agree to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coil Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Renly would have stopped himself, most likely.Despite being charming, he made three enormous mistakes in about two chapters... he was probably a good politician in the modern acception, but a terrible commander... and most likely not a good ruler.He did split his immense army while cutting out the supplies, basically forcing himself to fight (by the way, also in a bad position) and lose... his nobleborn allies, since he had almost only horsemen.He gave the command to a great jouster and friend, but also a totally inexperienced leader.He went against his brother.On the paper, Renly's ideas and speech make sense: he has the means and the opportunity, why shouldn't he take it?But talking and acting are different issues: despite his early killing, he was wasting his immense backup piece by piece.I believe that his crucial issue isn't his tactical inability (look at Catelyn's chapters...), rather the fact that he doesn't reflect that much.Instead, he lets emotions cloud his judgement:-He has a moltitude of valid generals and seasoned warriors, and then gives the command to the most inexperienced warrior just because of personal preferences-Catelyn offers him a sort of alliance, and he refuses it flat out despite no actual battle has been fought yet, thus closing a door without any reason.-Another big mistake it's how he treats Stannis: like any other man in the Realm, he knew that Stannis would have never backed down his claim. Obviously, if he wants the crown there will be battle, so he is prepared to kill his own brother to some extent.Up until that it's only a moral issue, and not a mistake.The real mistake is how he deals with the Stannis issue: he knows everybody hates Stannis, and instead of playing the game with politics (where he shines), he brings himself down to Stannis' only speciality: warfare.If I would have been him, I would have allied myself with Stannis, then win the war by doing absolutely anything and then start to work with a plan. Nobody loves Stannis, the same applies for his wife and everybody loves Renly: there are countless ways he could have played that!I believe that Renly considered warfare as a sort of mathematic excersise: "I have the numbers", "you have less numbers" so "I'm going to win necessarly", instead of considering any other possibility.Battles and plans however are not that adamant, and while there's absolutely nothing wrong with having the big numbers, it's pointless if you aren't flexible enough.Except for Robert vs Rhaegar, in the whole series basically every battle is won through trickery, treason or assassination and never with the pure numbers.Assuming that he would have been able to defeat Tywin (most likely - but I wouldn't put past the Lannister to make some magic happen) without dieing, Renly would have been minced by Varys.Also assuming that he wouldn't have died during a pointless, self-provoked charge against Stannis' army instead of being assassinated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo Attano Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Nothing really. Not when you give a man like Randyll Tarly command of a 100,000 strong army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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