Popcorn Sutton Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 There has obviously been a lot of discussion about what Jon does and most people think he is either wounded and not dead, or dead and wargs into ghost until Mel (or something else) can revive him. While I tend to agree with this thinking, what else is going to happen at the wall? Say Jon does warg into ghost for the first chapter or two. Don't forget there were hundreds of Wildlings preparing to go South with him. I doubt Wun Wun, Tormund, and co. will just stand idly by while jon get's stabbed.Perhaps val, mel, or tormund will escape with Jon's body. But where would they go? Eastwatch? North of the wall? South? I'm really not sure what makes the most sense here. All I know is that I doubt the guys that just stabbed him are going to allow him to be put in an ice cell with hopes of reviving him. Seems to me that Jon Snow (or at least his body) has to escape from Castle Black in order for the story to progress. I would like some theories as to how and where. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jentario Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 I think he'll be stuffed in an ice cell if Bowen Marsh and the rest of the backstabbers win the fight (which is bound to happen) between them and the wildlings. If the wildlings win I would guess Mel will initiate her resurrection policy. Of maybe the wildlings will want to burn his body, and then he'll step out of the fire a la Daenerys.Rant over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingHodorTargaryen Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 There has obviously been a lot of discussion about what Jon does and most people think he is either wounded and not dead, or dead and wargs into ghost until Mel (or something else) can revive him. While I tend to agree with this thinking, what else is going to happen at the wall? Say Jon does warg into ghost for the first chapter or two. Don't forget there were hundreds of Wildlings preparing to go South with him. I doubt Wun Wun, Tormund, and co. will just stand idly by while jon get's stabbed.Perhaps val, mel, or tormund will escape with Jon's body. But where would they go? Eastwatch? North of the wall? South? I'm really not sure what makes the most sense here. All I know is that I doubt the guys that just stabbed him are going to allow him to be put in an ice cell with hopes of reviving him. Seems to me that Jon Snow (or at least his body) has to escape from Castle Black in order for the story to progress. I would like some theories as to how and where.If he does die, Tormund and company kill Night's Watch defectors. Then they honor Jon's last wish, go to fight for Winterfell, and instill his body in the crypts. Howland Reed confesses to Tormund at Castle Black about his true parentage, and Tormund goes there. They find Stannis, fight with him, and have a proper burial at Winterfell. Mel does something, or Theon is sacrificed, or Bran does something, and Jon is brought back. Howland announces Jon's parentage, Robb's will, and bows before him as King in the North. The rest of North follows suite, and finally Mel does a dramatic walk to Jon, and kneels before him, professing he is Azor Ahai reborn. Stannis gets pissed, but the Northmen allow him to leave. He goes back to the Wall, goes beyond it, and encounters an army of Others. He demands they kneel before him, and the ancient frosty knees bend before the King. He then draws his sword, revealing one of black ice, covered in frost, the Lightbringer without the glamor. As the cold winds blow his cloak, this blue eyed king declares "Let the traitors tremble!" Cue Others invasion, Wall falls, Dany comes, dragons burn shit, and Jon and Dany rule the kingdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Son of Ice and Fire Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 If he does die, Tormund and company kill Night's Watch defectors. Then they honor Jon's last wish, go to fight for Winterfell, and instill his body in the crypts. Howland Reed confesses to Tormund at Castle Black about his true parentage, and Tormund goes there. They find Stannis, fight with him, and have a proper burial at Winterfell. Mel does something, or Theon is sacrificed, or Bran does something, and Jon is brought back. Howland announces Jon's parentage, Robb's will, and bows before him as King in the North. The rest of North follows suite, and finally Mel does a dramatic walk to Jon, and kneels before him, professing he is Azor Ahai reborn. Stannis gets pissed, but the Northmen allow him to leave. He goes back to the Wall, goes beyond it, and encounters an army of Others. He demands they kneel before him, and the ancient frosty knees bend before the King. He then draws his sword, revealing one of black ice, covered in frost, the Lightbringer without the glamor. As the cold winds blow his cloak, this blue eyed king declares "Let the traitors tremble!" Cue Others invasion, Wall falls, Dany comes, dragons burn shit, and Jon and Dany rule the kingdom.Then I'm glad it's GRRM writing the story and not you. First of all is it just me or is there really nothing about Jon/Ghost POV in that post? I have a hard time to see there are some people insisting on Stannis being the Night's King. Why? is it because he does not fit in their soap-opera expectations? Night's King is a figure in the past. I do not recall anything mentioned about his return, but if he will, why Stannis? If sth like that happens only Jon fits in the description. He has the blood of ice, a Stark and a Lord Commander of NW. Stannis has nothing to do with it.And about the POV, GRRM has mentioned that in the beginning of WoW we will see two battles long awaited, the battle of ice and the battle of fire, so no Jon or Ghost POV in the first 250-300 pages at least. If we will see a Ghost POV first, as much as I recall Ghost was locked in Jon's chambers and the first thing Jon may see warged in Ghost may be Mel, Thormund or Val opening the door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingHodorTargaryen Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Then I'm glad it's GRRM writing the story and not you. First of all is it just me or is there really nothing about Jon/Ghost POV in that post? I have a hard time to see there are some people insisting on Stannis being the Night's King. Why? is it because he does not fit in their soap-opera expectations? Night's King is a figure in the past. I do not recall anything mentioned about his return, but if he will, why Stannis? If sth like that happens only Jon fits in the description. He has the blood of ice, a Stark and a Lord Commander of NW. Stannis has nothing to do with it.And about the POV, GRRM has mentioned that in the beginning of WoW we will see two battles long awaited, the battle of ice and the battle of fire, so no Jon or Ghost POV in the first 250-300 pages at least. If we will see a Ghost POV first, as much as I recall Ghost was locked in Jon's chambers and the first thing Jon may see warged in Ghost may be Mel, Thormund or Val opening the door.1. XD XD XD XD XD XD XD 2. I may have never mentioned Jon being in Ghost as a POV, but I never said it wouldn't be there. I believe it will happen, I was focused on the larger picture.3. Dragons, the Long Night, the Targaryens are all coming back. The red god is gaining more power. Is it that much of a stretch for the Night's King to come again?4. Stannis is the best candidate for Night's King because he is an overlooked younger brother, consorts with a magical woman, giving her his soul to create monstrosities, is written as an increasingly skeletal person, and is obsessed with what he feels is his birthright. It would eb easy for GRRM to write Others as just a villain. It would be much more interesting if one of the main "protagonists" were to become the leader of this, and set out to destroy/ conquer the realm he was previously trying to protect in an ironic bitter turn of events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Son of Ice and Fire Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 2. I may have never mentioned Jon being in Ghost as a POV, but I never said it wouldn't be there. I believe it will happen, I was focused on the larger picture.I asked that because the thread is: "What will happen in Jon's first few POVs?", not the larger picture, so please let me explain myself, I'm not trying to be hostile or anything, just when I checked the thread I was expecting sth relevant. :)3. Dragons, the Long Night, the Targaryens are all coming back. The red god is gaining more power. Is it that much of a stretch for the Night's King to come again?So, is there sth mentioned in the books? Like the prophecy of AA or the Prince that was Promised... or is it just a personal expectation? It would be much more interesting if one of the main "protagonists" were to become the leader of this, and set out to destroy/ conquer the realm he was previously trying to protect in an ironic bitter turn of events.So, still why not Jon? Wouldn't be even more tragic/ironic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion_the_Oneironaut Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 What the heck does sth stand for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Son of Ice and Fire Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 something* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingHodorTargaryen Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 I asked that because the thread is: "What will happen in Jon's first few POVs?", not the larger picture, so please let me explain myself, I'm not trying to be hostile or anything, just when I checked the thread I was expecting sth relevant. :)So, is there sth mentioned in the books? Like the prophecy of AA or the Prince that was Promised... or is it just a personal expectation?So, still why not Jon? Wouldn't be even more tragic/ironic?Ah, my apologies, I took this more as what could happen to Jon, as seen through Ghost's perspective.This is. The Targaryens are going to be regaining the throne, or at least fighting for it. The red god is gainign supporters and is bringing people back to life. The Others are coming again. Three dragons are born and growing.It would be worse for Jon to be the Night's King, but so far, Jon is very much like Ned, valuing honor and family over everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Son of Ice and Fire Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 It would be worse for Jon to be the Night's King, but so far, Jon is very much like Ned, valuing honor and family over everything else.What about Bran then? Old Nan told him that the Night's King was a Stark of Winterfell and his name was Brandon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingHodorTargaryen Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 What about Bran then? Old Nan told him that the Night's King was a Stark of Winterfell and his name was Brandon...Bran is much more likely, but he is crippled. He cannot move troops into position, tell them where to go, let them know where to attack. I hope Bran doesn't spend life in a tree, but if Bran is going to be the Night's King, it would be utterly pointless to have had the idea in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D150 Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Bran may not be able to move/be crippled, but he can probably do the easiest/best maneuvering of anybody just sitting in one place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Son of Ice and Fire Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Bran is much more likely, but he is crippled. He cannot move troops into position, tell them where to go, let them know where to attack. I hope Bran doesn't spend life in a tree, but if Bran is going to be the Night's King, it would be utterly pointless to have had the idea in the first place.He may walk if he dies...but I'm pretty sure that Bran will continue his life as a part of a tree...And still, as I mentioned before, I do not expect a return of the Night's King, but even if there will be, I believe it has nothing to do with Stannis. He vowed to fight against the others for the realm... the man is stubborn and would never lead them... he would fall before that... he is "iron" and will break before he bends... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingHodorTargaryen Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Bran may not be able to move/be crippled, but he can probably do the easiest/best maneuvering of anybody just sitting in one place.The most feasible option for him would be to warg several birds, then warg a human or other to repeat the information. Also, like I said with Jon, Bran is shown in the very first chapter to be a lot like Ned, very honorable. He was attacked by Others, and they almost killed Summer. If he were to be the Night's King at age bloody 10, the whole thing would lose a lot of value because an almost unstoppable army of undead who can resurrect people to join their army would be controlled by a child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingHodorTargaryen Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 He may walk if he dies...but I'm pretty sure that Bran will continue his life as a part of a tree...And still, as I mentioned before, I do not expect a return of the Night's King, but even if there will be, I believe it has nothing to do with Stannis. He vowed to fight against the others for the realm... the man is stubborn and would never lead them... he would fall before that... he is "iron" and will break before he bends...Stannis is more concerned with getting a birthright that isn't even his. If he really wanted just to defend then realm, he would've gathered all strength, agreed with a pardon in exchange for Storm's End, and marched to the Wall and stayed there. He wants the Iron Throne, and does more and more to get it. I would call it determination if it wasn't so extreme. If the Northern army ditches him for Jon or Rickon, he has nothing. Absolutely nothing. The Others are the only way he can go except assassination or death by normal causes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Son of Ice and Fire Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 He wants the Iron Throne, and does more and more to get it. I would call it determination if it wasn't so extreme.He does not want the Iron Throne, he thinks it is his duty. He already explained it to Davos. If the Northern army ditches him for Jon or Rickon, he has nothing. Absolutely nothing. What about the 20000 sellswords Justin Massey would bring? Will he still be nothing? And Manderly will just ditch his deal with Davos who brings him his liege lord? Saying: - "Sorry pal, we have a Targ king now, thanks for the effort..." And even Benjen is a more suitable candidate for the Nigth's KIng. Younger brother of the Lord of Winterfell, who has no right and a man of the NW.You see the theory of the Night's King does not have a proof in the books, not even a hint. So as long as one states the possibility of Stannis being the Night's King, it would be easy to oppose. I guess the ones who want Stannis to be the Night's King are the ones who want a Jon-Dany marriage in the end and they are just trying to figure a way Stannis is out. I do not see this coming in the books. Maybe HBO would do that, but I do not believe GRRM would fall for such a cliche'. The exiled princess (damsel in distress) and the base born hero marry and live happily ever after. Since Robert had no true born heir, Stannis had the claim, it is obvious. And it would be really ironic if in the end Stannis sits on the throne. All the trouble and suffering, the war of the 5 kings etc. would be for nothing. Much ado about nothing, the one who should in the beginning sits on the throne in the end... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingHodorTargaryen Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 He does not want the Iron Throne, he thinks it is his duty. He already explained it to Davos.What about the 20000 sellswords Justin Massey would bring? Will he still be nothing? And Manderly will just ditch his deal with Davos who brings him his liege lord? Saying: - "Sorry pal, we have a Targ king now, thanks for the effort..."And even Benjen is a more suitable candidate for the Nigth's KIng. Younger brother of the Lord of Winterfell, who has no right and a man of the NW.You see the theory of the Night's King does not have a proof in the books, not even a hint. So as long as one states the possibility of Stannis being the Night's King, it would be easy to oppose. I guess the ones who want Stannis to be the Night's King are the ones who want a Jon-Dany marriage in the end and they are just trying to figure a way Stannis is out. I do not see this coming in the books. Maybe HBO would do that, but I do not believe GRRM would fall for such a cliche'. The exiled princess (damsel in distress) and the base born hero marry and live happily ever after. Since Robert had no true born heir, Stannis had the claim, it is obvious. And it would be really ironic if in the end Stannis sits on the throne. All the trouble and suffering, the war of the 5 kings etc. would be for nothing. Much ado about nothing, the one who should in the beginning sits on the throne in the end...If he thought it was his duty to sit the real heir on the Iron Throne, he would have supported Dany or Viserys. Justin is a Targaryen loyalist, he is ambitious, and there is also the chance he might fail to bring the sellswords or even die. Manderly has the best intersets of the Starks, the Manderlys and the North. It helps none of those to go back down south to die for a different king while a horde of undead descends on your family and home. All these people you name have no reason to lead a horde of undead. No motivation, you assume they just wake up and say to themselves "Hey, today I feel like leading a horde of undead slaughtering everyone." All these legends are coming back. Dragons, the red god, red comet, Others, resurrection. Is it that much of a stretch that one person might become an Other? You must keep in mind, this is, at its core, a fantasy fairy tale. Sure it has rape, killing, maiming, sickness, death, and starvation, but some key aspects are there. Yes, I would love to see Jon and Dany on the Iron Throne at the end. Does it mean it is going to be what happens? Probably not. Robert took the crown through force, nothing wrong with that, except there is no legitimate claim for Stannis to go off of. He doesn't care what he has to do, who he has to kill, who he has to sacrifice, he just wants the Iron Throne. The Others are his army. And when he gets his karma for this, I will laugh and whoop in joy as he burns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Son of Ice and Fire Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 So do we agree that there is no evidence, but personal expectation? (which is definitely not sth I disapprove, but I guess we must agree on the difference) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingHodorTargaryen Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 So do we agree that there is no evidence, but personal expectation? (which is definitely not sth I disapprove, but I guess we must agree on the difference)This is not necessarily personal expectation as much as a mass of small little things pointing to a bigger picture like a jigsaw puzzle. It's much like the evidence in A Storm of Swords pointing towards Robb's death. All of it is there, you just have to read the writing on the Wall. I'm sure that as much as I would hate it, it is possible for Stannis to sit the Throne, but there is more evidence to him becoming Night's King because he simply cannot catch a break and everything is just shitting on him. He is iron he will BREAK before he bends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Son of Ice and Fire Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 And I am trying to ask just what is the evidence that shows it, if you would please. Anything mentioned in the books. Let's accept that the Others need a human warrior/king/hero for their cause (whatever that is) what makes anyone thinks it is Stannis? Just because he is in a desperate condition now? When we give a close look on the history of characters we see much. Stannis was in desperate condition in the Siege of Storm's End, but he got it through. Ned Stark mentioned him as a seasoned commander, who defeated Victarion, Stannis also mentioned his victory against Victarion, which may be quite important. Which causes respect. No one says ah it was very easy and obvious. So desperate condition would change his attitude? I do not believe. If I am wrong, I want to see the evidence, any kind of link to others. Did he ask Melisandre if it would be possible to use others by using magic? Or did he tell Davos that he would do anything, even use the others perhaps? Have we read anything that can be considered that he may think of using others? And one more thing about storytelling, maybe I'm wrong, only time will tell, but I can never see a major POV character be the King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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