Best Claim to the Iron throne

[Mister Manticore]

claim lies with whomever has strength to press the claim. As for succession involving Stannis legitimizing Jon no clear indication as to were legitimized bastards fall in line of succession except that it seems to fall before Sansa.

Except Sansa would clearly be de-listed more for her marriage to a Lannister than anything else.

[lee1026]

claim lies with whomever has strength to press the claim. As for succession involving Stannis legitimizing Jon no clear indication as to were legitimized bastards fall in line of succession except that it seems to fall before Sansa.

Then please explain to me why is Mace Tyrell not claiming to be king. He is the most powerful lord right now, by far.

[cybroleach]

You, too, make the mistake of confusing "right" and "might". If the former did not exist, here never would be a clash of claims. Oh and lastly, Blackyre, Bittersteel and Bloodraven are not commonyl called Targaryen because the former two LOST the war. They sure were called Targaryen by their supporters. But they lost the war, so they arent now - not because of any lacking validity fo their claim.

Actually this IS very false in the SSM, George commented on their names indept a few times while being ligit i guess gives them the option to take the name Targaryen, Bloodraven and Bittersteal choose to keep their bastard names and Daemon choose to start a new house of Blackfyre, so no one called them targaryen and had nothing to do with the war.

[Lord Stark]

Then please explain to me why is Mace Tyrell not claiming to be king. He is the most powerful lord right now, by far.

True House Tyrell has the most manpower, but that doesn't really mean they are the strongest, or could win a war for kingship. Dorne is weak in manpower, but has been able to hold of the Reach for hundreds or thousands of years. Maybe House Tyrell could beat most houses in a war, but not all, and when you add more Houses against them, then their chances fail. In the case of the War of the Five Kings, the Tyrells could have made themselves kings, and I'm sure Mace thought about it, but his mother knew better. They would have had to fight against the Lannisters, Dorne, and the Stormlands, which means war on all borders. Pretty much all Great Houses would be on their own expect for House Stark, and House Tully, and that would give them a huge chance to defeat any army in Westeros. Lannisters would have to sue for peace with Robb, or else with Mace, in which case they would have to accept they were no longer rulers of Westeros. With the alliance with the Lannister he made his daughter queen, and gained much power. He couldn't claim kingship with an alliance with the Lannisters, as the true heir to the throne was of Lannister/Barathron blood, and they wouldn't accept that.

Pretty much it would have been good for Robb and the North, but bad for Westeros on a while.

[lee1026]

In Robert's rebellion, the reach and Dorne had nearly the same amount of power as the combined might of Winterfell, Riverrun, Eyrie, and Storm's end.

Proof: Robert's rebellion is a close thing, and the only great houses that backed the dragon is the Tyrells and the Martells.

Now, we know that Dorne did not do much. (They only sent 10K men)

Which means that Highgarden is a match for the combined might of 4 great houses.

Now, we also know that the combined might of riverrun and winterfell slightly better then the Lannisters alone. (Robb's war)

So therefore, going to war against Lannisters should be easier then against the Starks and the Tullys.

And therefore, fighting a combined force of Lannister, storm's end, and eyrie is easier then fighting against the four houses that rose with Robert.

Now, we know that the Eyrie is more powerful then Sunspear.

Which means that it is easier by far to fight Lannisters, Storm's end and Sunspear then to fight the four houses that backed Robert. And since we know that was a close thing, this should have been a solid Tyrell victory.

Also, if Mace just crown himself the king in the south, he would also have the combined might of Riverrun and Winterfell aiding him.

[Guest Other-in-law]

In Robert's rebellion, the reach and Dorne had nearly the same amount of power as the combined might of Winterfell, Riverrun, Eyrie, and Storm's end.

Proof: Robert's rebellion is a close thing, and the only great houses that backed the dragon is the Tyrells and the Martells.

That's a gross oversimplication. We know that the Riverrlands were deeply divided with some houses (Whent and Darry) siding with the Targs right up to the end. Others may have had to be defeated before they joined Robert (Goodbrook); roughly the same thing took place in the Stormlands (Connington til the end, Grandison and some other houses changing sides after defeat) and maybe the Vale. Only the North seems to have had monolithic support for the rebels....as far as we know.

Also the houses sworn directly to King's Landing fought for Rhaegar and the Lannisters fifteen years later. There's quite a few of them, they could probably field as meny men as the Iron Islands I'd guess.

[Grumpygoat]

And don't forget the Houses that plain sat out the war who were ostensibly bannermen to the rebelling Houses. The Freys leap immediately to mind - and they're likely just one of the more prominent ones.

Edit: With that said, though, if strength alone were the qualifier for who gets to be king, it'd be Mace sitting the Iron Throne. But no one says "He's the strongest of us, we'll support him."

No. They look to other things like ties of friendship, marriage, and tradition. The Tyrell's backed Renly, rather than vice-versa, because Renly had a vestige of tradition backing him; he wasn't Stannis, but he was still brother to the previous king. He had a stronger claim than the Tyrells.

Heck, even Viserys had a chance to be king based entirely on who he was and what his familys name is. Dorne was looking to make a king of him, despite the fact that he was a worthless beggar who, in and of himself, had no power.

[The Red Wolf]

Exactly. Mace's power lies in the support of his bannermen. If he just declared himself king, it isnt likely all his bannermen would side with him. Mace has a better shot at marrying his daughter to a boy king. And during a crisis, like the regent being imprisioned, he assumes the regency and he goes Richelieu and slowly usurps the crown over time.

[Mister Manticore]

Then please explain to me why is Mace Tyrell not claiming to be king. He is the most powerful lord right now, by far.

Olenna Tyrell would beat him over the head till he forgot the idea.

[Lord Mord]

Best claim? In a world where people decide such things by arms, there really isn't a "best" claim till it's over.

[Lord Stark]

In Robert's rebellion, the reach and Dorne had nearly the same amount of power as the combined might of Winterfell, Riverrun, Eyrie, and Storm's end.

Proof: Robert's rebellion is a close thing, and the only great houses that backed the dragon is the Tyrells and the Martells.

Now, we know that Dorne did not do much. (They only sent 10K men)

Which means that Highgarden is a match for the combined might of 4 great houses.

Now, we also know that the combined might of riverrun and winterfell slightly better then the Lannisters alone. (Robb's war)

So therefore, going to war against Lannisters should be easier then against the Starks and the Tullys.

And therefore, fighting a combined force of Lannister, storm's end, and eyrie is easier then fighting against the four houses that rose with Robert.

Now, we know that the Eyrie is more powerful then Sunspear.

Which means that it is easier by far to fight Lannisters, Storm's end and Sunspear then to fight the four houses that backed Robert. And since we know that was a close thing, this should have been a solid Tyrell victory.

Also, if Mace just crown himself the king in the south, he would also have the combined might of Riverrun and Winterfell aiding him.

As Other-in-law said, The Riverlands, The Stormlands, and The Vale all had to put down minor lords before they could fight against the king. This would weak those three Houses enough that they wouldn't be fighting with their full power. The Reach could never come close to defeating 4 Great Houses, just can't happen. The Reach had 10k Dornish, which may seem small, but numbers doesn't say how well a force fights. The banners sworn to Kings Landing fought with them, and then there might have been a minor House or two from the Riverlands and Stromlands that was able to get their men to join with the kings men. The Common people would have likely had helped the kings men, at least those on the edge of the Stormlands and Riverlands.

Lannisters may not have the numbers of House Tyrell, but they have better weapons and armor, and then if you look at a map of trhe South, you see that the Westerlands is mostly mountains, and so it isn't going to be easy to beat them at home.

Fighting against House Baratheon, House Lannister, and House Arryn would not be easy, as they would be fighting alone. Tyrell = 80k men. Arryn = 45k men, Lannister = 50k men, House Baratheon = 30k men(numbers may be off, as I'm going by my head, and could be off a couple thousand. 125k vs 80k doesn't look good. Then lets look at it more. In Roberts war he had to fight his own lords, no lord in the Stormlands is going rebel against their Lord for the Tyrells. They aren't going to be able to march into the land as easy as last time. Stormlands would be able to defend if the Tyrell attack, and they might even start to lose, although if it is as easy as you say, the Stormlands would have been gone thousands of years ago. As soon as the armies of the Reach move to the east against the Stormlands, the Lannisters can move south and strike a weakened enemy. Reach has to split it's armies. Then we have Arryns, now they can march through the Riverlands and open a new front, or sail(or march) to join with the Stormlands or the Lannisters. Even in the books with the weakened Houses, the Tyrells would get no easy win against these houses. Tyrell against Stark

Tyrell vs Lannister, Baratheon, and Martell would be another Tyrell defeat. Roberts war lost a few battles, but I can't recall any which they loist which messed their plans up too much, or lost them manpower or gold or anything like that. It started out close because 3 of the 4 Houses had to fight their own banners, but once they were able to get them under control, and join forces, they proved to be a very hard thing to beat.

Once against Tyrell would be attacked from North and East from the Lannister and Baratheon, then you add in the Martells, who are in their South, and would love to kill them some Tyrell. Now you have the Reach force of 80k in 3 armies. This leaves them thin, and unless they have 3 good generals, they are going to lose, and lose quick. In the books they might, might have stood a chance, but I doubt it. Dorne was still strong, sure they may only have 25k, but again numbers don't always show who is better. Lannisters are bloodied, but with battled hardened men, well the Tyrell men are raw with no experiance, expect for those alive who fought in the last war. Stormlands are weakened alot, but would stiull be able to defend against the Reach. Tywin would have a problem, but he would work something out. Might have to make peace with Robb for the time being, but I don't think he would let the reach go it alone. He would find a way to deal with the Reach, and then get back to Robb.

Why would Winterfell and Riverrun aid Highgarden? I have seen no love between these Houses, and I would expect Robb to hope Tywin bloodied himself up enough that he wouldn't have the men to fight him again. There is a chance Robb might aid them, but I think it just as likely he let the South do it's own thing, and worry about his Kingdom.

The Reach is like the Riverlands, and we know how hard it is to hold the Riverlands in a war. If Mace declared himself king, I see him losing some land, and maybe keeping his kingship, but in the long run it would weaken House Tyrell very much after the War of the Five Kings. They would have only been able to stay alive because everyone else was weak, but they wouldn't have been able to take much land for the Iron Throne, which would be the Stormland and Lannisters, and maybe Dorne and The Vale, although unlikely the last two. Pretty much what Mace did is make his borders go from friendly to enemy borders, borders that can be attacked at any time, and with no help from anyone. It makes much more sense in the longrun to marry his daughter to the king, and keep allies, then throw your allies away.

[cybroleach]

In Robert's rebellion, the reach and Dorne had nearly the same amount of power as the combined might of Winterfell, Riverrun, Eyrie, and Storm's end.

Proof: Robert's rebellion is a close thing, and the only great houses that backed the dragon is the Tyrells and the Martells.

Now, we know that Dorne did not do much. (They only sent 10K men)

Which means that Highgarden is a match for the combined might of 4 great houses.

Now, we also know that the combined might of riverrun and winterfell slightly better then the Lannisters alone. (Robb's war)

So therefore, going to war against Lannisters should be easier then against the Starks and the Tullys.

And therefore, fighting a combined force of Lannister, storm's end, and eyrie is easier then fighting against the four houses that rose with Robert.

Now, we know that the Eyrie is more powerful then Sunspear.

Which means that it is easier by far to fight Lannisters, Storm's end and Sunspear then to fight the four houses that backed Robert. And since we know that was a close thing, this should have been a solid Tyrell victory.

Also, if Mace just crown himself the king in the south, he would also have the combined might of Riverrun and Winterfell aiding him.

There's more to might then biggest number wins, We know Stannis and Tywin and Robb are all great leaders and battle commanders while Mace is a bit of a sot and everyone knows this he needs 2 or 3 times the men to be half as efficient as the good commanders in westeros and lack of trust in leadership will cause his men to loose heart not to mention Hightowered probably sit out at the idea of nameing Mace Tyrell king and there goes alot of Mace's manpower. Hell look at westeros right now the Greyjoy's one of the weakest houses (manpower wise) is going head to head with them. or historically The Reach fought long wars against a smaller Lannister kingdom and Dorne (the smallest kingdom), and Stormkings jet never gained victory over any.

So Mace has the power to be king of the Reach at best but no where near the power to take the Iron Throne.

[Guest Other-in-law]

To add to the respective strengths of the houses during Robert's Rebellion, I'm not sure that the Tullys actually had even half of their nominal strength at the Trident.

The Freys were their single largest vassal, and they sat it out. The Whents would have been up there, too, and they fought for Rhaegar (they obviously suffered a major reversal of fortune afterwards, as did the Darrys). And it seems unlikely that they would have had *both* the Blackwoods and the Brackens on their side.

So a very weak River force for Robert, compared to his other allies. Division in the Stormlands and the Vale too, at least in the beginning, but they may have eventually been able to pull most of their weight. But the Riverlords definitely did not.

[lee1026]

Why would Winterfell and Riverrun aid Highgarden? I have seen no love between these Houses, and I would expect Robb to hope Tywin bloodied himself up enough that he wouldn't have the men to fight him again. There is a chance Robb might aid them, but I think it just as likely he let the South do it's own thing, and worry about his Kingdom.

Let's just say that the enemy of your enemy is your friend.

[The Red Wolf]

The point not made is that both a legitimate (no nessasarily strong) claim is needed in addition to strength of arms. Tywin Lannister could have taken the throne durring Robert's rebellion, but he never could have held it. Robert Baratheon obviously had strength of arms, but he also had that drop of targ blood to satisfy the Traditionalists and the personal charisma to win over the surviving loyalists.