The Jon Snow Reread Project II AGOT-ACOK

[Winterfellian]

Great analysis as usual Butterbumps!

I particularly like your take on the Gendel and Gorne as a cautionary tale on getting lost. I feel that being “lost” is an important part of this chapter. In line with this point of view, one of the last things Jon mentioned in the previous chapter is:

It is easy to lose your way beyond the wall

Interestingly enough Jon starts this chapter watching the stars, which are a sort of universal compass to find your way. Yet, mirroring Jon´s internal conflict, even the stars have become confusing. They are the same he learned as a boy and they are not. What I like is that Jon seems to realize that they remain the same, is his own perception that´s changing. He is no longer looking at the wilding through the same frame of mind that he did at first.

Also,

Jon could see the Wall looming high and dark to the South, a great shadow blocking out the stars

I find the contrast between North of the Wall, where Jon sees so many stars with the lack of the latter to the South rather interesting, though am not sure how to interpret it. There are two diametrically opposite views and in a way both equally useless. I think that the reason for this is because Jon has to find his way back all by himself. If the choice to pose as a turncloak was imposed on him, the choice to become one or not is entirely up to him and he can´t look anywhere other than in himself for guidance, hence why he feels he’s beig stripped of everything that once defined him, even Ghost.

I think that if he were to try and find his way, by attempting to follow someone else´s path like Gendel did, the same fate will await him- he will be inevitably lost. He has to find his own path and choose to take it. This contrast with his situation in ACOK, where by his own admission he did not choose the road he rode.

ETA- I find Jon´s adamant claim that he didn´t steal Ygrtitte equally symbolic as him still storing how old black cloak.

[Lummel]

Interesting chapter - atmospheric, a lot of loss and regret, isolation and pain. A sense of being lost too which I think is all tied together very neatily in the sex and the story of Gorne and Gendel - though there too, that knot of family obligations and curses.

I took some notes while reading...and in classic tradition "perspective space Jon arrow Ygritte arrow Ghost / task (written inside a box)" doesn't make the same sense that it did when I scribbled it down. Never mind.

The strength of Jon's feelings about his family I thought very strong: "was she ever my sister" - ie his current perspective (to pick up on the them that Butterbumps identified) of himself as an outlaw is poisoning his perspective on his own past. Then he calls himself a "motherless bastard" which is incredible. Nobody has suggested that he was hatched from an egg (so far). His mother is unknown, but clearly he had one. Most people do (or least so somebody claimed earlier in the series, maybe even Jon himself? I don't recall), but here he takes it further - he is so isolated and cut off that in his imagination he has no mother.

"the bird marked both of us". That stood out for me after what Fireeater was saying about the eagle given scars as a mark from the gods in the discussion around Jon II. So Jon is feeling isolated from humanity as a whole but is asserting this closer link to Ghost - they at least are both marked. Their scars now seems rather like some ASOIAF mark of Cain.

But of course Jon is not entirely alone because there are "two hearts that beat as one". Ygritte's perspective is that he stole her and that she is his by right. This together with her last wish to stay together in the cave suggests that they are a seperate unit, cut off from the wider world of people. But we have just learnt in the Gorne and Gendel story that the cave life is a dead end. It offers no way out and no way back. This to me is a commentary on Jon and Ygritte's relationship. He is literally and figuratively lost among her nooks, clefts and curves, but it is a dead end. But perhaps I'm writing with hindsight knowing that the final arrow in their story doesn't spring from Cupid's bow.

The sex to my mind seems also important in showing Jon in the same position as Jaime - not in regard to his kissing but as being shown to be more than a dead man walking. Mormont says that the watch wear black to mark that they have already given up their lives - they have sworn them over to the watch. The Ned's concept, sorry, Jon's perspective on what he consdiers to have been The Ned's concept of honour is shown to be shallow, it rejects the full roundness of the experience of being human which Jon's sudden (and repeated) carnality demonstrates. GRRM is showing us that Jon is more than a vow. Jaime, being older, and having had to kill the object of his vow has absorbed this better. My feeling is that Jon is struggling with this, trying to depress himself but family love repeatedly in ADWD bubbles up and finally bursts out under pressure in Jon XIII. Jon is still a youngster, still work in progress to a greater extent than Jaime.

The memory / vision of the weirwoods impinging on the couples sexlife reminded me of Sam and Gilly in AFFC - the weirwoods watching. I am holding back from trying to make a joke about Bloodraven getting wood, but it is difficult.

Jon's disassociation reminded me of Tyrion, "his body had played the part eagerly enough", not I played the part. Jon's isolation is then at risk of extending to exclude his own body!

Interesting what you say Winterfellian about Jon being adament that he didn't steal Ygritte. So to reuse Butterbump's term he is refusing to see it from her perspective. Jon is being showered with golden insights which he refuses to internalise. I suppose saying : yes I did steal you is tantermount to admitting to an unconscious desire to steal, intention to steal the woman. That would oblige him to admit to having desire, to having a sexuality. Thet as we saw way back in Jon I AGOT is incredibly difficult for Jon. He wants to deny himself bastard children, which I think leads to denying himself sex - others go to Mole's town, Jon doesn't and in turn to denying that he has a sexual nature. GRRM however is crueller and pushes Jon into sex that intellectually he'd prefer to avoid - here we are back to Jon's phyiscal disassociation. I didn't want sex, it was my body - he tells himself.

The sense of inadequency is incredible in the chapter too - no good as a man of the night's watch, no good as a warg, no good as a wildling, no good as a spy...Thank goodness he turned out to be good at one thing otherwise this chapter would have been too bleak.

[Winterfellian]

The memory / vision of the weirwoods impinging on the couples sexlife reminded me of Sam and Gilly in AFFC - the weirwoods watching. I am holding back from trying to make a joke about Bloodraven getting wood, but it is difficult.

:laugh: Good thing you were holding back

Interesting points Lummel. It brings to my mind Butterbumps!'s equally interesting observation about sex causing the most conflict in terms of his loyalties. As BB pointed out, despite Jon's self denial about sleeping with Ygritte to keep his cover, is clear that he wanted to.

Is interesting how Jon seems to akin a rejection of his own humanity=keeping his vows or at least as means to achieve the latter. Looking back I find I can´t really blame the guy for this, or at least not fully. Just look at the lessons stilled on him from his mentors- the things we love destroy us everytime, Jaime once describes Ned as having cold water running through his veins instead of warm blood or something like that, We are only human and the Gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.

I think Jon acts this way, not only as a result of self denial, but as means of channeling the advice on "love and vows" he has received from "wiser men than him"

Interestingly enough it seems Jon is in the crux between glory and tragedy as per Aemon's line; only to learrn, as events progress, that no matter the choice, glory and tragedy are not mutually exclusive. By the end of ASOS he's marked by both.

[Lummel]

...Thenns: The Magnar claimed to be the last of the First Men, and ruled with an iron hand…Ygritte said the Thenns were savage fighters, and that their Magnar was a god to them. This might solve the mystery of why the Starks and others are referred to as having “blood of the First Men” rather than being First Men; perhaps the Thenns have kept their bloodline pure, whereas others haven’t.

• Craster: Craster’s more your kind than ours. His father was a crow who stole a woman out of Whitetree village, but after he had her he flew back t’ his Wall. She went t’ Castle Black once t’ show the crow his son, but the brothers blew their horns and run her off. Craster’s blood is black, and he bears a heavy curse...

...If there’s a main theme of this chapter, it’s about how definitions shift depending on one’s perspective to them...

...The sex Jon’s been having with Ygritte seems to be causing the most conflict about loyalties this chapter. My personal take is that while there was pressure from Mance on Jon to prove his loyalty, I’m unconvinced that Jon was coerced. I think Jon’s loyalty could have been proven through other means (for example, not continuously lying about the Watch’s strength would have been a good alternative), but sex was both the most direct method, as well as the one he had personal interest in. Particularly, this passage leads me to believe the coercion, if any, was very light:

Two hearts that beat as one. Mance Rayder’s mocking words rang bitter in his head. Jon had seldom felt so confused. I have no choice, he’d told himself the first time, when she slipped beneath his sleeping skins. If I refuse her, she will know me for a turncloak. I am playing the part the Halfhand told me to play...

...It sounds like a warning to Jon about turning his cloak again once they are past the Wall, as given his immersion in her culture, it will never be the same: “when he tried t’ turn back the ways that seemed familiar ended in stone rather than sky.”

The parallel seems even more purposeful given Ygritte’s closing lines:

“Jon Snow,” she told him, when he’d spent his seed inside her, “don’t move now, sweet. I like the feel of you in there, I do. Let’s not go back t’ Styr and Jarl. Let’s go down inside, and join up with Gendel’s children. I don’t ever want t’ leave this cave, Jon Snow. Not ever.”

It’s as though she suspects that once over the Wall, Jon might seek to return to his post, which would jeopardize her own position with the wildlings. As they’d both be unable to return to where they came, and sensing the inevitable, she suggests they share their own limbo.

I'm still at a loss with this First Men business because if as you say the Thenn's have kept their bloodline pure, then I ask where is all the impure blood coming from? Even if we allow for some Andal blood getting into the North from the Manderlay enclave or the visiting occasional merchant sowing his wild oats on a fleeting visit north of the Wall these impure mixed bloodlines would surely still be in the minority?

What is the deal with Craster? If for the sake of arguement the population north of the wall consists of about 100,000 living humans isn't it interesting that Craster is suffciently well known for Ygritte to know about him (although I suppose she could have come from a neighbouring village to Craster's keep for all we know).

I like your description of the potential cave life as a limbo, feels apt. Agree on the coercion, this is another case of 'my cock betrayed me' as Tyrion said, Jon is another one wh doesn't want to admit to his desires.

Perspective really is a major theme considering how the decision to write the story from multiple POVs means that it is all about perspective, who gets to speak to us and when. :)

...One of the things I learnt here is how to look at order of the chapters. To see how some motifs are being expanded more than just in one chapter, and how certain structures could be noticed. So, when it comes to this chapter(to be completely honest, I did this for my Davos reread, but it will be useful to mention here), there is certain structure in 4 chapters - Bran II --- Davos III --- Jon III - Daenerys III... I think that these four chapters speaks volumes about Jon's parentage, and that symbiosis of ice and fire that is in him.

I feel that GRRM is a bit unambigious about hereditary in ASOIAF, particularly since we see how Jon is formed and reformed by the experiences that he is living through in the story. Haven't we seen a wide enough variety of icy and fiery characters to know that a symbiosis of both could result in almost anything? ;)

Looking at Jon III with Daenaerys III following and Davos III preceeding I would say that imprisonment and confinement are common to all three chapters but this arcs into breaking free through a complete role reversal / turning the table. There is the explosion of violence in the Daenerys chapter, ditto in Jon a couple of chapters down the road that allow escape from their confined situations, in Davos we get the prison door opened and Davos made Hand of the King instead of being executed. So we arc from absolute low points ('I have to sell a dragon, woe!' 'I'm a traitor and a failure, woe!' 'I'm going to die, woe!') to sudden promotion ('I'm the mother of a big bad army, yay!' 'I'm in charge of the wall, yay!' 'I'm Hand of the King, yay!').

...Is interesting how Jon seems to akin a rejection of his own humanity=keeping his vows or at least as means to achieve the latter. Looking back I find I can´t really blame the guy for this, or at least not fully. Just look at the lessons stilled on him from his mentors- the things we love destroy us everytime, Jaime once describes Ned as having cold water running through his veins instead of warm blood or something like that, We are only human and the Gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.

I think Jon acts this way, not only as a result of self denial, but as means of channeling the advice on "love and vows" he has received from "wiser men than him"

Interestingly enough it seems Jon is in the crux between glory and tragedy as per Aemon's line; only to learrn, as events progress, that no matter the choice, glory and tragedy are not mutually exclusive. By the end of ASOS he's marked by both.

Yes, GRRM's big sucess I feel in ASOIAF is the human heart in conflict against itself, in particular love as the bane of honour and duty = the struggle in the indidvidual wanting to be true to themselves and feeling that they should adhere to what society, family, the obligations of oaths, gender or social roles require of them. I think that Jon's arc is in part about being a square peg and trying to hammer himself into round holes - the result of which at 2/3rds of the way through the series (or 5/7ths?) is

his (near?) death experience. So yes I agree the story is going to be painted in glory and tragedy.

I'm not sure that I think there is any substantial difference between self-denial and channelling the advice of wiser men than him. Although arguably Jon's channeling is the result of his perspective. Maester Aemon doesn't tell him what is right, only that any conscious decision is going to be hard - there is going to be blood on your hands and that this is the inevitable consequence of responsibility.

I wouldn't blame Jon either. GRRM's set up of the Winterfell situation is clever in making this a convincing no win situation for anyone involved and shows really how disruptive and destructive all round that King Bob's visit and offer that The Ned can't refuse were.

Jon IV seems slight and an easy climb so I think it should be up somepoint on Sunday GMT.

[Mladen]

I feel that GRRM is a bit unambigious about hereditary in ASOIAF, particularly since we see how Jon is formed and reformed by the experiences that he is living through in the story. Haven't we seen a wide enough variety of icy and fiery characters to know that a symbiosis of both could result in almost anything? ;)

Looking at Jon III with Daenaerys III following and Davos III preceeding I would say that imprisonment and confinement are common to all three chapters but this arcs into breaking free through a complete role reversal / turning the table. There is the explosion of violence in the Daenerys chapter, ditto in Jon a couple of chapters down the road that allow escape from their confined situations, in Davos we get the prison door opened and Davos made Hand of the King instead of being executed. So we arc from absolute low points ('I have to sell a dragon, woe!' 'I'm a traitor and a failure, woe!' 'I'm going to die, woe!') to sudden promotion ('I'm the mother of a big bad army, yay!' 'I'm in charge of the wall, yay!' 'I'm Hand of the King, yay!').

This is why I love this thread... It's good for humility... Great post, Lummel...

I have to admit, that ever since Lummel talked to me, and rest of us here on this thread about hidden structures, how some chapters are connected thematically, and how you can follow the development of themes, my perspective on ASOIAF has been considerably widen And the way this particular topic has been analyzed and dissected here by three great hosts, it always leaves me in awe... So, now I am projecting "lessen son of greater fathers" spirit :)

Yes, you are completely right, Lummel. First, that shaping and reshaping of who someone is, in a way is important, for it shows us the basic evolution of human psyche. And despite the fact that Martin reminds us from time to time, that blood is thicker than water, that origin does count (just look at Stark girls), he also develops a theme of learning, changing, growing-up. And at the end, concerning Jon, we will have to ask is he a hero because he is some prophesied hero of powerful bloodlines, or because he is a guy who was taught to do the right thing when it's needed? Somehow, I think we all know the answer.

Then, the construction of three chapters you mentioned. I agree on that too... TBH, I wasn't looking at it that way, since I was more preoccupied with Melisandre's philosophical debate with Davos... And given the fact the story that preceded this chapter was the story about Harrenhal tourney and blue winter roses, so I went that way... But your idea is more thematically clearer...

[Lummel]

...Yes, you are completely right, Lummel. First, that shaping and reshaping of who someone is, in a way is important, for it shows us the basic evolution of human psyche. And despite the fact that Martin reminds us from time to time, that blood is thicker than water, that origin does count (just look at Stark girls), he also develops a theme of learning, changing, growing-up. And at the end, concerning Jon, we will have to ask is he a hero because he is some prophesied hero of powerful bloodlines, or because he is a guy who was taught to do the right thing when it's needed? Somehow, I think we all know the answer...

I wrote about hidden structures? Goodness. As far as I understand GRRM writes chapters, generally a row of one POV, turning to another one once he feels he is too far ahead, so I guess deciding the chapter order probably comes along quite late, or at any rate is open to revision as he writes. On the whole I think there are very few chapters that absolutely have to come before another to keep some surprise for the reader.

If we are talking about themes then captivity and freedom is a good one - it's there on the Butterbumps level of ice and fire wights of absolute unfreedom, it is there in physical imprisonment (Davos, jaime, Tyrion) and metaphysical imprisonment say by vows, promises and obligations - but also in ways of thinking. That Daenerys chapter really shows that - the woman needs an army, but has no money to buy one nor does she have the resources to grow her own - the answer to the problem is 'blood and fire', actually this is really nice because that answer then shifts into a new type of problem that continues all the way through ADWD until she flies away from it - how can you create lasting peace or subtle political structures out of brute violence which creates weaknesses, resentments and a pattern of bloodshed? That links Daenerys into the pattern of the first Targaryen kings and we remember that it took until Jaehaerys came along to find an answer to that problem. Anyway, off topic.

Yes you are right about the Starks, and we know that blood is significant too, blood of the dragon and all that. I think GRRM is deliberately playing with us (again!). Hidden heirs with super inate traits are a bit of a fantasy trope and GRRM is setting us up to ask which is more important, nature or nurture. Assuming L+R=J is true then it is fun to read about Rhaegar and then to think about Jon, but equally Rhaegar's brother was Viserys and the little sister was Daenerys. So there is a hidden question there about what Jon might have inherited. :dunno:

Learning in anycase is huge, I suppose one question we should be asking is what is Jon learning in these five chapters that he spends among the Wildlings? The lessons seemed obvious when he was with Mormont and Qhorin. We feel reading ADWD that his time among the wildlings was a breakthrough in his thinking - but what precisely aside from sexual experience, is he getting from these people? Just a sense of common humanity or some other things too?

[Mladen]

I wrote about hidden structures? Goodness.

I think I have named it that way on one of Davos' analysis, and it remained in my mind. My point is, that you three taught me how to look themes between chapters, how some theme are going through certain chapters, how important order of chapters is... So, for me, that all is named "hidden structure" :). Sorry for putting words in your mouth, wasn't my intention.

Learning in any case is huge, I suppose one question we should be asking is what is Jon learning in these five chapters that he spends among the Wildlings? The lessons seemed obvious when he was with Mormont and Qhorin. We feel reading ADWD that his time among the wildlings was a breakthrough in his thinking - but what precisely aside from sexual experience, is he getting from these people? Just a sense of common humanity or some other things too?

I believe that we are seeing Jon continuing to find out that wildings are also humans, that in comparison to Others, they are not their primal enemy. I think Jon is learning the other side of story, the Wall representing here not just 700ft high chunk of ice, but linguistic, cultural and many other boundary between people. Passing through the Wall, and going into wilderness, spending time with wildlings is actually his path of realizing that in the coming war, wildlings are not his enemies. Also, I believe that Jon finally humanizes the wildlings. They aren't anymore just an enemy, they now have names, personal traits, virtues and flaws... I find that extremely positive in his personal growth. That ability to overcome the stereotypes he has been taught since his childhood, and to communicate with them, and even personally get involved with them... That is something we rarely see in ASOIAF...

[Lummel]

Jon IV ASOS

Overview

This brief chapter follows on directly from Jon III. In its bare eight pages the trespassers gather. A dozen of the wildling raiders form into team of four and start to climb the Wall. Jarl and his team die when a sheet of ice cracks off the wall (“The Wall defends itself”). The other two teams reach the top. They haul up rope ladders and the entire group crosses the Wall. Jon is almost entirely an observer during this chapter. No flash backs in this chapter. We follow the climbing action through until midnight and the end of the chapter.

Continuing the theme of sex and captivity the preceding chapter is the Arya chapter at the Peach which ends with the capture of Sandor while the following chapter has Jaime and Brienne tied together as the lovers and ends with them arriving in Harrenhall.

Observations

• The Sword of the Morning. Mentioned in Jon III and now again here, this reminds me of the South of Arthur Dayne, Jaime and even Rhaegar. Can there be a simple coincidence in GRRM?
  
• Note that wildlings also get round the Wall and even despite the impracticalities some go raiding over the Wall. Going round the Wall would seem the sensible way to attack.
  
• “Where do I stand” a central issue in the previous chapter. Here Jon's identification comes across as being clearly with the Wall and the Watch, along he does admire the bravery of the climbers and the big, hairy, audacious, rope ladder.
  
• Another nod to the metal poverty of beyond the Wall. Swords for the team to first gain the top of the Wall, the spiked boots of the climbers and their crampons – a few of iron, some bronze, many of bone.
  
• We “never found the Horn of Joramun to bring this cold thing down!”. Ygritte at least doesn't want to take shelter behind the Wall, but to destroy it.
  
• I rather admire the death of Jarl - GRRM killing off somebody who had potential to become a character. His lady love Val will reappear in ASOS and emerge as being a powerful or possibly an influential person in ADWD
  

Analysis

The Wall

Presented here as an absolute, big, white object in contrast to the variegated forest facing it. We think of the Watch, all in black (black and white suggesting a simple, uncomplex outlook) facing the heterogeneous mass of weird, wonderful and repulsive wildlings.

“A wall is only as strong as the men who defend it”

The Wall has been presented as a formidable barrier but we realise now that this has been misleading. The Watch lacks the strength to clear back the forst from the base of the Wall, it doesn't have the manpower to patrol or control the entire length of the Wall. Thinking deeper we can see that the quality of the Watch is limited. This is a key insight of Jon's that will drive some of his policies in ADWD – literacy, archery and building up the numbers to defend the Wall.

We see The Ned's insight in action in some of the other battles and sieges of the series too. A stout wall alone will not good neighbours make?

“The Wall defends itself” & “This Wall is made o'blood”

Rereading I wondered if the Wall itself is sentient or a magical object? Both Jon and Ygritte describe the Wall as though it is conscious. It defends itself, it tries to shake Ygritte off. Long ago on the Heresy threads we speculated if the Black Gate that Bran goes through at the Nightfort means that the Wall was built on a Weirwood, or along knots or clumps of weirwoods. But perhaps the entire thing is magical. Obviously the whole thing is magical in that seven hundred high ice Walls are hardly natural phenomena. Later Melisandre will describe is as one of the hinges of the world, which suggests something more like a door than a wall, but also underlines it's status as a powerful, if incompletely understood, thing.

Is the Wall made of blood because of the people who have died because of it, or because blood was used in its construction, perhaps as part of some of the magic required to build it? Reminds me of those folktales of people walled into towers, foundations or builders killed so as never to construct anything finer in the future.

ETA

I thought I would mention again the question of what does Jon gain from being with the wildlings, partly because I'm like that and secondly because the next Jon chapter is the last in this sequence of five (or two plus three if you like) and is a little explosive.

• So we have the first two chapters in ASOS when Jon is with the Wildling column, then these three chapters on a special mission.
  
• Is this important for bedding down an acceptance of being a warg - and what might that mean for his self image (apart from a reasonable fear that he might have to shave more)
  
• I like Fireeater's marked by the gods angle - is there something in this, marked out by Jupiter?
  
• What about his sexual experience - is this transformative? How far does its influence go?
  
• Can we say that he went north a boy and came back a man? - He also kills someone for the first time north of the Wall - and some one he respects at that.
  

Anything else?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Is the Wall made of blood because of the people who have died because of it, or because blood was used in its construction, perhaps as part of some of the magic required to build it? Reminds me of those folktales of people walled into towers, foundations or builders killed so as never to construct anything finer in the future.

In many balkan folklore tales, a bride must be offered as a sacrifice for the completion of a construction project, such as a bridge, usually the wife of the architect. Which brings us back to the Nissa Nissa myth and to the Wall as a figurative Lightbringer...

The idea of immurement is also reinforced by the story of the seventy nine sentinels of the Nightfort.

[butterbumps!]

(back to Jon III for a sec)

I'm still at a loss with this First Men business because if as you say the Thenn's have kept their bloodline pure, then I ask where is all the impure blood coming from? Even if we allow for some Andal blood getting into the North from the Manderlay enclave or the visiting occasional merchant sowing his wild oats on a fleeting visit north of the Wall these impure mixed bloodlines would surely still be in the minority?

What is the deal with Craster? If for the sake of arguement the population north of the wall consists of about 100,000 living humans isn't it interesting that Craster is suffciently well known for Ygritte to know about him (although I suppose she could have come from a neighbouring village to Craster's keep for all we know).

Yea, the Thenns thing is a bit weird right? If it's said this way to express "purity" of bloodlines, my guess was Andal mixing, but I think maybe before the Manderlys showed up. I had the impression that there was some interaction with Andals for a long time, because the Rat Cook story involves an Andal king (the Manderlys received the Wolf's Den 1,000 years before the conquest, and I had the impression that the Rat Cook story preceded that, but I could be wrong). Conversely, I guess it could be about customs-- maybe they hold to all the ancient customs in ways the other groups don't as strictly?

About Craster, I wonder if he's so notorious because of how much of an abomination he is to the rest of them-- given their strong views on incest and fear of the cold gods, it's possible that Craster is just so salacious that word of him is widespread.

[Lummel]

In many balkan folklore tales, a bride must be offered as a sacrifice for the completion of a construction project, such as a bridge, usually the wife of the architect. Which brings us back to the Nissa Nissa myth and to the Wall as a figurative Lightbringer...

The idea of immurement is also reinforced by the story of the seventy nine sentinels of the Nightfort.

oh, yes, the seventy-nine sentinels! Perhaps Ygritte was picking up on legends like that. The Wall as Lightbringer is interesting, although then it seems to have confused or combined the idea of defeating something with containing something. Equally blood seems to be at the base of a lot of the powerful magic we see in ASOIAF, :dunno: but certainly intriguing.

(back to Jon III for a sec)

Yea, the Thenns thing is a bit weird right? If it's said this way to express "purity" of bloodlines, my guess was Andal mixing, but I think maybe before the Manderlys showed up. I had the impression that there was some interaction with Andals for a long time, because the Rat Cook story involves an Andal king (the Manderlys received the Wolf's Den 1,000 years before the conquest, and I had the impression that the Rat Cook story preceded that, but I could be wrong). Conversely, I guess it could be about customs-- maybe they hold to all the ancient customs in ways the other groups don't as strictly?

About Craster, I wonder if he's so notorious because of how much of an abomination he is to the rest of them-- given their strong views on incest and fear of the cold gods, it's possible that Craster is just so salacious that word of him is widespread.

How many Andels might there have been north of the Wall? Seems curious. I think purity of customs rather than purity of blood sounds more reasonable, but then wargism suggests that blood lines are important too. It could be that GRRM just settled on those phrases because they sound good without any thought as to their precise meaning :laugh:

Anyway we know that the Thenns at least do stick to ancient custom in speaking Old Tongue and using Bronze

[Winterfellian]

I still have to read the chapter, but I wanted to comment on this:

Is the Wall made of blood because of the people who have died because of it, or because blood was used in its construction, perhaps as part of some of the magic required to build it? Reminds me of those folktales of people walled into towers, foundations or builders killed so as never to construct anything finer in the future.

Without delving too deeply into the magical aspect of the Wall I think it is both, reverting back to the whole "it all depends on where you stand" recurrent theme. For Ygritte the Wall is made of blood because of all the brave wildings that had died upon it. But in ADWD we have Jon telling Stannis:

The stones of those forts (the ones along the Wall) are mortared with the blood and bones of my brothers long dead

Is Jon talking in allusion to the men of the NW who had given their lives defending the Wall? Or is his description a result of how the true history of the building of the Wall has morphed to give a figurative meaning to what was one day true? Is hard to tell. The word mortared catches my attention as mortar is a material that acts as a binder that keeps blocks "glued" together. What's more, the words "blood and bone" are used in describing the colors of the weirwood trees and even Ghost.

Not too sure what to make of this, but I thought I´d throw it out there.

By the way, thanks for the great analysis Lummel!

[Lady of Long Lake]

For Ygritte the Wall is made of blood because of all the brave wildings that had died upon it.

"I almost fell" she said with tears in her eyes. "Twice, Thrice. The Wall was trying t' shake me off. I could feel it." ..." I'm crying because we never found the Horn of Winter!"

I find it mystifying that the Others are coming and Yrgitte would still blow the horn and knock the Wall down if she had the chance! It seems that in Ygritte's point of view, the Wall's entire purpose is to keep the Wildlings out of the North ( the Stark's North). Shouldn't people that are pure blood of the First Men know the main reason the Wall should stay up?

I can slightly see why Mance had the Horn of Joramun as his "Plan A" for moving the Wldlings south. He's a military and political leader and he's got to move tens of thousands of people to keep them safe. Bringing down the Wall would make this exodus go the easiest.

But the cost! The Others will march unhindered.

[Lummel]

...The stones of those forts (the ones along the Wall) are mortared with the blood and bones of my brothers long dead

Is Jon talking in allusion to the men of the NW who had given their lives defending the Wall? Or is his description a result of how the true history of the building of the Wall has morphed to give a figurative meaning to what was one day true? Is hard to tell. The word mortared catches my attention as mortar is a material that acts as a binder that keeps blocks "glued" together. What's more, the words "blood and bone" are used in describing the colors of the weirwood trees and even Ghost...

Yes it reminds me of what ShadowCat Rivers was saying about Balken brides sacrificed to complete building projects. On the edge of my memory is something about bodies of animals or people found in the foundations of some iron age/bronze age constructions in Europe, maybe there are legends along those lines in The Golden Bough or something - blood was mixed in the mortar traditionally in the world of winter in Ursula LeGuin's The left Hand of Darkness. I'm sure GRRM has read that, it is an evocative image.

I think there is an element of both and GRRM wants us readers hovering between the two images. One literal and magical, the other figurative and social. Both are powerful on their own, but together there is mystery too.

"I almost fell" she said with tears in her eyes. "Twice, Thrice. The Wall was trying t' shake me off. I could feel it." ..." I'm crying because we never found the Horn of Winter!"

I find it mystifying that the Others are coming and Yrgitte would still blow the horn and knock the Wall down if she had the chance! It seems that in Ygritte's point of view, the Wall's entire purpose is to keep the Wildlings out of the North ( the Stark's North). Shouldn't people that are pure blood of the First Men know the main reason the Wall should stay up?

I can slightly see why Mance had the Horn of Joramun as his "Plan A" for moving the Wldlings south. He's a military and political leader and he's got to move tens of thousands of people to keep them safe. Bringing down the Wall would make this exodus go the easiest.

But the cost! The Others will march unhindered.

I'm not sure that The Mance's plan A was to huff and puff and blow the Wall down, later in ASOS that is not how he describes it to Jon. My assumption is that is his plan C, or possibly plan D (Plan A is the Thenn's seize Castle Black and open the gates, Plan B that The Mance batters his way through with his big army, Plan C that he bribes his way through by threatening to use the horn, Plan D to actually use it - assuming that he actually has it. Plan D is a nuclear option, because like you say then there is no safe place from the White Walkers, expect perhaps in Dorne, Essos or other overseas places).

But completely agree that Ygritte's vision of the Wall as an evil thing is striking, but it fits in with the last of the giant's song from Jon II ASOS. The Wall is an act of ongoing violence across the land that is causing the death of the way of life of giants and of a certain way of life of some (originally all) humans. This is possibly over my pay grade but I feel that Ygritte is channeling Rousseau:

The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said "This is mine," and found people naïve enough to believe him, that man was the true founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody.

The Wall imposes a political, social and economic form of life and prevents even the possiblity of the two co-existing, ultimately this leads to the death of the 'free' way of life north of the Wall. I was skipping ahead and read the next Sam chapter and in a couple of places there characters say that there is no law beyond the wall. So free we can understand as meaning lawless, authority and respect are personal and unforced. The Wall makes possible a zone of law, which means order and submission to hierarchy, forced and inheritated authority. Ygritte rejects all that, she's the noble savage perhaps.

I'm blathering now, but perhaps this gets back to the question of the pre-Wall world. Was a balanced way of life between giants, children of the forests, humans and White Walkers possible or does co-existence automatically means conflict? If you believe that the series will end in the traditional big battle between white walkers and humans this qustion is irrelevent (and possibly incomprehensible). If you are open to some other resolution to the series then actually it might be a big clue to how the story might end.

[Snow fan]

From the first moment the Stark family found the dire wolves, and Jon Snow was seemingly given the " runt of the litter",I figured some where later on the story he would be developed into a major character. History has shown us that most great men and heroes start off with backgrounds of pretty humble and often turbulent beginnings . While all eyes were on Rob and Ned Stark, Martin was slowly developing ( in my opinion) his diamond in the rough Jon Snow. As to whether he is the one to finally bring down King Geoffery remains to be seen. All hail King Jon!

[Winterfellian]

From the first moment the Stark family found the dire wolves, and Jon Snow was seemingly given the " runt of the litter",I figured some where later on the story he would be developed into a major character. History has shown us that most great men and heroes start off with backgrounds of pretty humble and often turbulent beginnings . While all eyes were on Rob and Ned Stark, Martin was slowly developing ( in my opinion) his diamond in the rough Jon Snow. As to whether he is the one to finally bring down King Geoffery remains to be seen. All hail King Jon!

I see this is your first post. Welcome to the forums! :)

[Lummel]

From the first moment the Stark family found the dire wolves, and Jon Snow was seemingly given the " runt of the litter",I figured some where later on the story he would be developed into a major character. History has shown us that most great men and heroes start off with backgrounds of pretty humble and often turbulent beginnings . While all eyes were on Rob and Ned Stark, Martin was slowly developing ( in my opinion) his diamond in the rough Jon Snow. As to whether he is the one to finally bring down King Geoffery remains to be seen. All hail King Jon!

Welcome...reading your post I think that you haven't read the whole series yet, if so you should stick to the still reading sub-forum, otherwise you will get lots of spoilers.

[Julian Rayne]

Is the Wall made of blood because of the people who have died because of it, or because blood was used in its construction, perhaps as part of some of the magic required to build it? Reminds me of those folktales of people walled into towers, foundations or builders killed so as never to construct anything finer in the future.

I think that the "engine" of whatever spells keep the Others out was created by a blood sacrifice. Ygritte's view is a bit provincial and myopic (as opposed to Mance who has a long view). The Wildlings were not a part of the greater equation eight thousand years ago. The Wall and the Watch were never intended as a bastion against them, we're been told over and over.

The "gasoline" of the Wall's power however is the living blood of the Night's Watch. It's their sacrifices and their purported austerity that keeps the magic refreshed and ameliorates its entropic decay. Presumably, any brother who dies 'For the Watch' can be considered yet another blood sacrifice. If you're familiar with the Hindu concept of 'tapasya', that's the kind of magic I mean.

And that is why the Night's Watch needs to remain true to it's purpose. That is why the confinement of grumpkins and snarks is contingent on the Watch. Otherwise they would be irrelevant. If the Wall could keep out the Others only on the power of the initial blood sacrifices, the waning of the Watch would not be a cause for such great concern. The Wall would act as a barrier to the Others and keep the Long Night at bay even if it were unmanned. Yes, the Wildlings would be a problem, but on a completely different scale than the Long Night.

I think that while Ygritte's did hit the nail on the head, she was inflating her own relevance to the Wall's purposes.

[Lummel]

...The "gasoline" of the Wall's power however is the living blood of the Night's Watch. It's their sacrifices and their purported austerity that keeps the magic refreshed and ameliorates its entropic decay. Presumably, any brother who dies 'For the Watch' can be considered yet another blood sacrifice. If you're familiar with the Hindu concept of 'tapasya', that's the kind of magic I mean...

No I haven't come across that before - interesting notion! It certainly seems to fit with some of the other ideas around the watch, the notion of dedication and watchmen as already having given up their lives for the cause when they swear the oath.

[Ragnorak]

A brief catch up post on Jon III...

Maester Luwin had taught him his stars as a boy in Winterfell; he had learned the names of the twelve houses of heaven and the rulers of each; he could find the seven wanderers sacred to the Faith; he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning. All those he shared with Ygritte

The King’s Crown was the Cradle, to hear her tell it; the Stallion was the Horned Lord; the red wanderer that septons preached was sacred to their Smith up here was called the Thief. And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman

The stars as a means of navigation as Butterbumps pointed out seems the right metaphor. It also fits well with Jon observing the Wall blotting out the stars as his Nights Watch vows are the cause of his current navigational confusion. The constellations he sees are divided into those they share and those that differ.

The Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning are common links between the Free Folk and those south of the Wall. The Sword of the Morning has an interesting House Dayne connection and makes sense given that House is some 10,000 years old. It also points to that sword being of some import. Not sure what to make of the rest but it seems they point to common ground.

The ones that differ are a little more clear. The Red Wanderer is the Thief. The Wildlings don't craft like the Smith but rather raid and steal. The King's Crown is the Cradle. This fits with the difference between the hereditary Iron Throne and the earned title of the self made Kings beyond the Wall. Not sure what to make of the difference between the Stallion and the Horned Lord. Dany's Silver, Sandor's Stranger, Jaime's Honor, Lady Dustin's wedding gift Ned brought back, and the Stallion that mounts the world prophesy are most of the horses of note I can recall. Bran's Dancer is dead iirc and I think Theon's horse died too. Of that list I'm not sure which ones were stallions. More generally the idea of a majestic mount in the stars could allude to dragons-- especially with their birth at the Dothraki funeral. The constellation interpretation is more interesting in light of the Horned Lord which leaves me speculating more about dragons than horses.

It was Dalla who answered him, Dalla great with child, lying on her pile of furs beside the brazier. “We free folk know things you kneelers have forgotten. Sometimes the short road is not the safest, Jon Snow. The Horned Lord once said that sorcery is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it.”

Inherent in Jon's recollection of the constellations is that 4,000 years ago when the Andals came we can be sure that whoever taught stars at Winterfell (couldn't have been a Maester because they too came with, or as a result of, the Andals) did not teach of the Seven Wanderers of the Faith nor were the Andals likely to have had a Sword of the Morning. Jon's constellation recollections already speak to a reconciliation and integration between two peoples. Inherent in this Wildling experience are the seeds of Jon's later choice to embrace the Wildlings in Dance. He's learning the stars to navigate that course here.

butterbumps!, on 07 Oct 2013 - 03:53 AM, said:

I think the tale stands on its own as a piece of Northern lore, but in the context of a chapter so thoroughly devoted to immersing oneself in enemy culture, knowing one has to retreat back, I can’t help think this is a parallel. It sounds like a warning to Jon about turning his cloak again once they are past the Wall, as given his immersion in her culture, it will never be the same: “when he tried t’ turn back the ways that seemed familiar ended in stone rather than sky.”

The parallel seems even more purposeful given Ygritte’s closing lines:

“Jon Snow,” she told him, when he’d spent his seed inside her, “don’t move now, sweet. I like the feel of you in there, I do. Let’s not go back t’ Styr and Jarl. Let’s go down inside, and join up with Gendel’s children. I don’t ever want t’ leave this cave, Jon Snow. Not ever.”

It’s as though she suspects that once over the Wall, Jon might seek to return to his post, which would jeopardize her own position with the wildlings. As they’d both be unable to return to where they came, and sensing the inevitable, she suggests they share their own limbo.

I like this idea about getting lost following someone else's path and the way it ties into Aemon's Raven and Dove speech.

Winterfellian, on 11 Oct 2013 - 11:26 PM, said:

Is interesting how Jon seems to akin a rejection of his own humanity=keeping his vows or at least as means to achieve the latter. Looking back I find I can´t really blame the guy for this, or at least not fully. Just look at the lessons stilled on him from his mentors- the things we love destroy us everytime, Jaime once describes Ned as having cold water running through his veins instead of warm blood or something like that, We are only human and the Gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.

I think Jon acts this way, not only as a result of self denial, but as means of channeling the advice on "love and vows" he has received from "wiser men than him"

Interestingly enough it seems Jon is in the crux between glory and tragedy as per Aemon's line; only to learrn, as events progress, that no matter the choice, glory and tragedy are not mutually exclusive. By the end of ASOS he's marked by both.

In addition to Winterfellian's observations I think strict adherence to a code of honor could be considered "someone else's path" and is something we are led to believe is likely to get you lost. Jon even thinks:

I should have tried to kill Mance Rayder on the Fist, even if it meant my life. That was what Qhorin Halfhand would have done.

This, like Gorne and Gendel, involves a brother following another brother's path (which we can assume would have gotten Jon killed based on his later training yard fight with Mance.) It also touches on Lummel's earlier observation about the noble and heroic death being the easy way out sometimes.

Some other random observations...

Despite Jon's own doubtful feelings I think the family theme is strong here-- especially with Jon's pseudo-marriage to Ygritte because this relationship ends up serving the political purpose of a marriage for the Watch and the Wildlings in the end. Jon thinks he is failing like Ned did when he supposedly fathered Jon but in fact he is willingly taking on a public dishonor for an honorable reason which is the real Ned similarity.

“He’s of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t’ strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters.”

A Lannister commentary? Tywin begets Tyrion and Jaime begets Joffrey.

He turned toward the sound, but within ten paces he was in a dead end, facing a blank wall of rose and white flowstone.

There's a Flowstone Yard in Harrenhal that recurs throughout Arya in Clash. That's where she has her ironic princess conversation with her would have been Frey husband among other scenes.