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The Jon Snow Reread Project II AGOT-ACOK


Lummel

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...did anyone else think of a Native American Indian chief when they read the description of Qhorin? He is clean shaven with long hair that he hangs in a braid, and later when he is sitting in Mormont's tent he is described as sitting cross legged (when I was a girl we referred to this way of sitting as Indian style) with his back held straight up. Given that Qhorin is a "crow" I thought this image and quote from Sitting Bull was appropriate.

Despite watching the High Chaparral religiously as a child that never occurred to me. I was only thinking 'bleeding fantasy authors giving their heroes bleeding long hair, what a bleeding pain in the bleeding neck to bleeding wash and braid all that mumble grumble'

But now that you mention it, that seems very apt.

...I actually think that the idea of the unsung hero applies more to the brothers of NW than the wildings. As we will learn soon, they clearly had bards like Bael in the past and songs that are part of their cultural heritage. The equivalent of a bard for the NW (Daeron) not only didn't sing any songs about the bravery of some of the men in it (even if he was expressly commanded to) but also deflected as soon as he got the chance. There's certainly a contrast between the Southern Bard that sings for gold (see Marillion or the Rains of Castamere) and the bards North of the Wall who live up and sing their own deeds just for the fun and liberty of it...

Yes I agree that what we see in Jon (and Sam's) story compared to what we see in the south is much more conventionally heroic, yet these are the deeds that seem doomed to be forgotten, even Daeron is singing of red, red lips as soon as he gets a chance rather than the deeds of Qhorin or the betrayal of Mormont.

...II. aCoK Atmosphere...

III. Winterfell's role...

V. First Men....and the Starks

Initially, I'd read this not as a true distinction between First Men and the Starks, but rather, a way to reinforce and remind them that they are one and the same, as a way to sell Jon's participation in the mission to have gods on their side.

If you break down the full quote, though, it looks like it could have a double meaning, so I agree with Lum that there's something more here potentially: “The old gods are still strong beyond the Wall. The gods of the First Men . . . and the Starks.” I'm not certain the distinction is between First Men and Starks, that is, I'm not certain the focus is on the Starks are separate people from the First Men. It looks more to me like the distinction is a religious difference, that is, the Starks may follow a different set of old gods than the rest of the First Men.

I think the business of the first men and the starks can be read in a few ways:

i The old gods are the gods of the first men and the starks

ii The first men are distinct from the Starks

iii The starks have a particular and special relationship with the old gods

iv the starks have a different set of gods to the first men

maybe some more too. What is this all about? I think the ambiguity is part of how GRRM steadily makes Westeros more complex book by book, chapter by chapter. Ambiguity obliges us to open our minds, we teeter on the edges of alternative possibilities, our minds fill in the blanks.

However GRRM is also providing us with information on a strictly need to know basis. Clearly the rangers in particular know things that Jon either doesn't know, doesn't admit to himself or simply won't mention (out of spite towards the reader no doubt!) in his POV.

Winterfell

The Stark-Winterfell-Night's Watch links are going to be built in subsequent chapters too. For me this chapter emphases something that came up in Learning to Lead of how advantaged Jon is relative to Daenerys as a new leader. He has the mentors - and won't we see something of Qhorin's sparse style in Jon's dealings with the watch once he is elected Chief and he also has the strong links of family and tradition to work in his favour.

The funny thing about the atmosphere to my mind is how having built up the sense of threat in the previous chapter GRRM here defuses it once to then introduce a certain death mission at the end of the chapter!

Interesting points on the warging...

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Elba-- yes, I think that's a very apropos visualization/ characterization. That association really adds to his mystique even more, imo.

Yes, definitely. It fits with what you said in your last post about Qhorin:

IV. Qhorin

Qhorin's always been something of a mystery to me. Dywen has revealed himself to believe in rather mystical aspects of their surroundings (smelling the cold, he knows some history of North and the Fist), but Qhorin takes this to a whole new level. To be honest, Qhorin almost reminds me of an old gods equivalent of Damphair, in that they are rather ascetic (Qhorin even sits with posture like a bodhisattva), they are true believers in something supernatural, and they believe that they can use the supernatural in an actionable way in service to an impending disaster. I think this will become even more palpable in the upcoming chapters, where Qhorin behaves as though he's reading or intuiting some sort of magical script. How does Qhorin know what he knows? He's the closest thing we see to a character who makes sense of and interprets old god matters, and he strikes me as priestly or apostle-like in his commitment to the supernatural side of this.

The Native Americans have a reputation for being very in tune with nature and their surroundings and also have a long old history of "religious" beliefs, that is their ideas of creation, gods and spirits. (I will admit that my knowledge of Native American culture is very superficial at best but that is always the impression I got about them.) I am getting the sense that Qhorin is the representative of this in these books, as he seems to have an intuitive sense of the natural world around him and the old mythos surrounding the North. This might also fit in with what you were saying in your last post about the atmospheric nature of these last few chapters creating a tense eerie feel about the land and some hidden force surrounding them. Maybe George structured them this way on purpose as an introduction to Qhorin as he seems to be set up as Jon's (and our) spirit guide through this next part of the story.
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So you see Qhorin as something of a Shaman with Jon as an initiate?

The quest is such a familiar element of the fantasy novel that maybe it is easy to overlook that original there was a spiritual element to it...

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II. aCoK Atmosphere

I was remarking to Lum on the nature of Jon's chapters in aCoK broadly, and it occurred to me just how atmospheric Jon's story is at this point. More thoroughly and consistently, I believe, than during the other books. These chapters are also quite chilling, not unlike the sense of tension and dread that permeate Arya's adjacent Harrenhal chapters. It strikes me that the content of much of these chapters has very little to do with Jon directly, at least in terms of character growth and progression. Jon is almost more of an eye at this stage, giving us pieces of Mormont's plan (which is still nebulous), showing us the setting and mood, and offering us hints of the big mysteries beyond the Wall. Admittedly, Jon is about to make a significant decision in an upcoming chapter, but I'd wondered if these chapters felt less about Jon and more atmospheric to anyone else.

Completely agree with this. I think the atmospheric impact is felt more once they reached the Fist, having left the villages and Craster's keep behind them and they are in the true forest so to speak. Going a bit back, the last description of a forest-like scenary before the fist was the outsides of Craster Keep, where he describes the forest as one turned to crystal, suggesting an ephemeral fragility. But once he gets to the fist the forest becomes eternal and unknowable.

I thought this was also interesting. In this chapter Mormont and Qhorin talked about the need to open up the following castles:

- Greyguard. Although Qhorin dismissed this due to its ruined state and instead suggested:

- Stonedoor

- Long Barrow

- Icemark

- Deep Lake

Doing a quick search in ADWD I found out that the castles Jon prioritized to be garrisoned were the following:

- Greyguard (Noticed that Qhorin suggested Stonedoor instead of these one because of its state. Though Jon had big plans to keep Slynt busy rebuilding it, so that might have been the incentive behind this choice)

- Icemark: Given to Giant to command

- Long Barrow: Given to the Spearwives under the command of Iron Emmett

- Deep Lake

- Sable Hall

I thought it was interesting that Jon's chosen Castles once he becomes LC are remarkably similar to those seasoned men like Qhorin and Mormont would have chosen. Either Jon was really listening to this conversation or despite his age and inexperience he truly understood the strategic importance of all these castles.

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I thought it was interesting that Jon's chosen Castles once he becomes LC are remarkably similar to those seasoned men like Qhorin and Mormont would have chosen. Either Jon was really listening to this conversation or despite his age and inexperience he truly understood the strategic importance of all these castles.

Great observation. I think that the former is more likely than the latter. He volunteered to serve the food to the commanders because he wanted to listen to what they were saying. And this also demonstrates that he's completely accepted Sam's advice/opinion on the advantages of being steward to the Lord Commander. One of his better qualities is that he's very open to advice on self-improvement - he's taken it from Tyrion, Donnal Noye, Aemon and Sam.

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Despite watching the High Chaparral religiously as a child that never occurred to me. I was only thinking 'bleeding fantasy authors giving their heroes bleeding long hair, what a bleeding pain in the bleeding neck to bleeding wash and braid all that mumble grumble'

But now that you mention it, that seems very apt.

Yes I agree that what we see in Jon (and Sam's) story compared to what we see in the south is much more conventionally heroic, yet these are the deeds that seem doomed to be forgotten, even Daeron is singing of red, red lips as soon as he gets a chance rather than the deeds of Qhorin or the betrayal of Mormont.

I think the business of the first men and the starks can be read in a few ways:

i The old gods are the gods of the first men and the starks

ii The first men are distinct from the Starks

iii The starks have a particular and special relationship with the old gods

iv the starks have a different set of gods to the first men

maybe some more too. What is this all about? I think the ambiguity is part of how GRRM steadily makes Westeros more complex book by book, chapter by chapter. Ambiguity obliges us to open our minds, we teeter on the edges of alternative possibilities, our minds fill in the blanks.

Agreed on the idea that the answer to that line is one of these 4 possibilities. Do you get the sense that this line will end up having a lot of significance later? I may be having a faulty memory of this or whether the wording is likewise ambiguous, but I seem to recall that various wildlings will underscore the "sameness" between themselves and Jon on the basis of heritage and religions in upcoming chapters (beyond Bael, I mean). Which becomes very interesting if this wasn't the intent behind Qhorin's statement, that is, if he was drawing some sort of distinction there instead of "sameness." It kind of adds to my confusion about how this guy knows these esoteric things!

Also, I agree on seeing Qhorin's influence shaping Jon's methods in the future.

Completely agree with this. I think the atmospheric impact is felt more once they reached the Fist, having left the villages and Craster's keep behind them and they are in the true forest so to speak. Going a bit back, the last description of a forest-like scenary before the fist was the outsides of Craster Keep, where he describes the forest as one turned to crystal, suggesting an ephemeral fragility. But once he gets to the fist the forest becomes eternal and unknowable.

Yes, I think I was most struck by the heavily-atmospheric content last chapter (summarizing that chapter was vexing, because more than half the text was devoted to descriptions of setting and sensory observations, including Mormont's mulled wine, lol). But even looking back to the preceding chapters, there's a lot of tension set up prior to leaving, the second chapter is rife with description and reads like a mystery (where are the wildlings?), the Craster chapter is chilling, and as you point out, the forest crystallization does suggest something less "knowable." I hadn't noticed this so clearly in past readings (though, I also admit to reading ahead to the end of the book already, so I'm also anticipating some of the lore we'll be given, Qhorin's continued behavior, Jon first warg experience, and their night in the bowels of the cave).

Interesting observations on the Castles chosen.

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...I think the atmospheric impact is felt more once they reached the Fist, having left the villages and Craster's keep behind them and they are in the true forest so to speak. Going a bit back, the last description of a forest-like scenary before the fist was the outsides of Craster Keep, where he describes the forest as one turned to crystal, suggesting an ephemeral fragility. But once he gets to the fist the forest becomes eternal and unknowable.

The landscape north of the Wall is another character :)

I thought this was also interesting. In this chapter Mormont and Qhorin talked about the need to open up the following castles:

- Greyguard. Although Qhorin dismissed this due to its ruined state and instead suggested:

- Stonedoor

- Long Barrow

- Icemark

- Deep Lake

Doing a quick search in ADWD I found out that the castles Jon prioritized to be garrisoned were the following:

- Greyguard (Noticed that Qhorin suggested Stonedoor instead of these one because of its state. Though Jon had big plans to keep Slynt busy rebuilding it, so that might have been the incentive behind this choice)

- Icemark: Given to Giant to command

- Long Barrow: Given to the Spearwives under the command of Iron Emmett

- Deep Lake

- Sable Hall

I thought it was interesting that Jon's chosen Castles once he becomes LC are remarkably similar to those seasoned men like Qhorin and Mormont would have chosen. Either Jon was really listening to this conversation or despite his age and inexperience he truly understood the strategic importance of all these castles.

Yes. For me this strengthens my view that Jon is the best placed of all the new leaders in ADWD. He has the mentors but also the policies and strategy laid out in part for him already. However with regard to the castles it could also be that those are simply the most logical choices to maximise coverage and defence of the whole wall.

On stoneguard / greydoor the other thing to say is that at this stage the watch is facing the might of mance and has minimal time to improve defences and re-establish those forts, however by ADWD the Wildlings have launched their strongest blow and have failed to cross the Wall - Jon has more time and more men available, repairing Greydoor is an option for him which it wasn't for Mormont.

Agreed on the idea that the answer to that line is one of these 4 possibilities. Do you get the sense that this line will end up having a lot of significance later? I may be having a faulty memory of this or whether the wording is likewise ambiguous, but I seem to recall that various wildlings will underscore the "sameness" between themselves and Jon on the basis of heritage and religions in upcoming chapters (beyond Bael, I mean). Which becomes very interesting if this wasn't the intent behind Qhorin's statement, that is, if he was drawing some sort of distinction there instead of "sameness." It kind of adds to my confusion about how this guy knows these esoteric things!

We know from the ADWD prologue that some wildlings trade with the watch, in that case Hagon the warg, wildlings are also quite - judging by Tormund who admittedly is obviously highly typical - open about acknowledging wargs so unsurprising that rangers who come most into contact with wildlings would be familiar wargs and the magical side of westeros.

The simplest explanation is that Qhorin is picking up on the warg aspect of Jon and making a subtle reference to that. Over on Heresy, long ago I argued for a blood relationship between the warg families and the children of the forest, if something like that is what GRRM has in mind then maybe there might be reference in a future Bran chapter.

On the other hand GRRM has said that he has a gardening style of writing - lots of seeds planted, lots of growth - but not all of it comes to bear fruit. We're three books on from ACOK and I don't think there has been anything else so far that might illuminate Qhorin's words any further.

The sense of relationship between Jon and the Wildlings is traced back to Bael rather than a common warg / warg-friendly identity, I think that's a bit odd actually blood descendants of Bael are presumably as numerous among the wildlings as blood descendants of his stark child in the north below the Wall, it can hardly be a direct tie uniquely between family stark and the whole wildling nation (s). But that's neither here nor there.

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I agree that these chapters are highly atmospheric, but there is a good deal of subtle Jon development going on. For example, Jon childishly dreamed of ranging back at the Wall but has since had the drudgery of an actual ranging take the childhood fascination out of it. So at the end here when he agrees to go with the Halfhand it is a very different decision than had he been made the offer back at Castle Black. Part of what we see Jon learning here is the mature quality of patience as well as his observations. Ned taught him much and here he gets to see those lessons applied by others without the actual weight of responsibility. The Jon who arrived at the Wall would have been enthralled at the idea of becoming Lord Commander, but by the time he returns the fanciful whims of having the title are long dead. Much of that is Ygritte and the battle but it has been building all along and I suppose the atmospherics here play into the death of boyish hunger for glory.

I think in the next chapter or the one after Qhorin tells Jon that there is a good deal more exchanged between the Wildlings and the Watch than Jon knows. I take this to mean a good deal more than most non-rangers know not just Jon. We know from Mance's story that a Wildling/Watch encounter is not always hostile. Later when they encounter the eagle it seems Qhorin and the others suspect a skinchanger right away. Clearly they know wargs exist beyond the Wall and that type of knowledge puts giant bones and other things into a whole different light.

Like Butterbumps, I seem to recall more to the Stark/Wildling connection than just the Bael story. The Bael story is, as Ygritte will tell Jon, a Bard's truth hinting at a greater truth to their kinship than just a common member of a family tree. One example in particular is in Dance when Jon finds Wun Wun and the Wildlings in the Weirwood Grove. The Wildling woman makes a disparaging comment about crows and their untrustworthiness but seems satisfied when Jon says he's the LC and Ned's son. If she mistrusts crows being the head crow is not entirely reassuring so the trust seems to fall on being a Stark.

I suppose there are clues in Bran especially with his interactions with Osha. Here's an interesting passage:

“Giants and worse than giants, Lordling. I tried to tell your brother when he asked his questions, him and your maester and that smiley boy Greyjoy. The cold winds are rising, and men go out from their fires and never come back… or if they do, they’re not men no more, but only wights, with blue eyes and cold black hands. Why do you think I run south with Stiv and Hali and the rest of them fools? Mance thinks he’ll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers, but what does he know? He can call himself King-beyond-the-Wall all he likes, but he’s still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower. He’s never tasted winter. I was born up there, child, like my mother and her mother before her and her mother before her, born of the Free Folk. We remember."

Lots of interesting stuff in there. She uses the same "cold winds rising" phrase we see used by the Watch. Stiv and Hali were "fools" while Mance is brave, sweet and stubborn. Is her information correct? Did Mance initially intend to fight the Others before his "hide behind your Wall" plan? I get her calling Bran a "summer child," but Mance has never tasted Winter? Wow. That Osha traces a matriarchal line here is curious as is the "remember" line that tends to get associated with Manderly or Alys more often.

Osha recognizes Bran as a warg and Robb too most likely. She initially is terrified of the direwolves which is reasonable given what she watched them do to her foolish friends. She's seen wargs I would imagine. Is the level of control Bran and Robb have while remaining clueless of their ability something that stands out to her? What does she make of every child in a Stark generation being wargs compared to someone like Qhorin? When she takes Bran into the crypts, Summer refuses to enter initially which is not unlike Ghost's behavior at the Fist. Winter comes up again when she proclaims that "Winter got no King" and like Ned's thoughts on his visit with Robert these old Starks are called "harsh men for a harsh time." Ned wanted his three year old to get over his fear of a direwolf. Just how harsh were these guys?

The crypts and the remembering theme invite us to speculate on what that distinction between First Men and the Starks in Qhorin's words might be. So do the atmospherics throughout all these chapters and the ones to come. A Stark/CotF connection in some form is a very tempting thing to muse about but we just don't have evidence for it yet and may never get it. The only wargs that we know to have existed south of the Wall are Bloodraven and the Stark children-- with some hints from the crypts that Stark Kings being direwolf wargs may have been commonplace in the distant past. The existence of wargs beyond the Wall does point to a deeper connection between the Starks and the Free Folk. Bloodraven is the only non-Stark warg though his House has that peculiar dead weirwood haunted by ravens which just invites mystical speculation.

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Yes, I think I was most struck by the heavily-atmospheric content last chapter (summarizing that chapter was vexing, because more than half the text was devoted to descriptions of setting and sensory observations, including Mormont's mulled wine, lol).

Oh yes, Mormont's wine:

The Old Bear was particular about his hot spiced wine. So much cinnamon and so much nutmeg and so much honey, not a drop more. Raisins and nuts and dried berries, but no lemon, that was the rankest sort of southron heresy-which was queer, since he always took lemon in his morning beer. The drink must be hot to warm a man properly, the Lord Commander insisted, but the wine must never be allowed to come to a boil.

With so much exactitude and complexity required to make a drink I couldn't help but being reminded of

:laugh:
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...Osha recognizes Bran as a warg and Robb too most likely. She initially is terrified of the direwolves which is reasonable given what she watched them do to her foolish friends. She's seen wargs I would imagine. Is the level of control Bran and Robb have while remaining clueless of their ability something that stands out to her? What does she make of every child in a Stark generation being wargs compared to someone like Qhorin? When she takes Bran into the crypts, Summer refuses to enter initially which is not unlike Ghost's behavior at the Fist. Winter comes up again when she proclaims that "Winter got no King" and like Ned's thoughts on his visit with Robert these old Starks are called "harsh men for a harsh time." Ned wanted his three year old to get over his fear of a direwolf. Just how harsh were these guys?...

Winterfell also remembers. Perhaps shared memory is a clue to what these peoples have in common? Presumably this would be some winter related memory.

The Osha point is very interesting and again there seems to be a recognition and respect for the Starks. Of course they have been the ruling or at least one of the ruling houses immediately below the Wall for a long time, but then the Watch has also been in place for a long time and is regarded with some contempt by the Wildlings. Which takes us back to Qhorin and there being some other connection, maybe warging related, maybe old gods related, or something else. I think Varamyr refers to his ability as the gift and thinks to the fact that his offspring don't have his warg powers. Perhaps the flip side of that is that a warg dynasty among the Wildlings and perhaps too below the Wall in ancient times would have been accorded enormous respect (or hard men for hard times style enormous fear) and seen to have a very special relationship with the old gods?

The Matriarchal line is something to watch out for I think, Craster - if his cold gods religion is traditional it must have come from his mother. I've wondered too if Dalla and Val might have been important in winning The Mance the kingship. North of the Wall is a different world, a strong sense of matrilineal descent in contrast to the more patriarchal world south of the wall would make sense in context - remember here Tyrion's comment that among the hill tribes even the women had a voice in the council too.

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Mance first met Dalla on his way home from Winterfell. He was already King beyond the Wall by then.

But the matrilineal heritage thing certainly makes sense. Also, it would make the "wildling princess" and "young prince" less Southron foolery (because it certainly makes no sense from a Southron cultural perspective).

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I have read the distinction of the Starks and the First Men, as simply this. The Starks don't call themsleves First Men rather than having the blood of the First Men, in the sam way the Arrys don't call themselves Andals or the Martell's Rhoynar. These terms have no sense as existing ethnic groups but as the ancestors of such. In that vein the wildlings don't call themselves First Men either, with the exception of Magnar and his Thenns who due to their isolation appear stuck in time. In that sense the phrase is affirming of the Starks being desscendants of the First Men and therein lies their kinship with the wildlings.

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Interesting and fun discussion everyone. I think I missed out by not participating more in the Heresy threads.

So you see Qhorin as something of a Shaman with Jon as an initiate?

The quest is such a familiar element of the fantasy novel that maybe it is easy to overlook that original there was a spiritual element to it...

I hadn't given it much thought before and had just assumed that Bran was obviously being set up as the mystical figure being led by a "spiritual leader" in the form of Bloodraven. But given this discussion and what has been noted on the atmosphere of the chapters and how this leads up to Qhorin's introduction, I think there could be something to Jon and Qhorin being set up this way. If Jon is Luke Skywalker then Qhorin is Obi Wan if you will. As Ragnorak noted also, Jon seems to recognize a leadership quality in Qhorin that he is eager to follow (and later Qhorin sacrifices himself as Obi Wan did). I think it's something to keep an eye on going forward. It might also be useful later on to look at Bran's chapters alongside Jon's as I am now sensing a lot more crossover of themes between them than I had at first realized.
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Jon VI (ACOK)

There's a good deal to look at in this chapter. I picked out a good number of things so feel free to discuss anything that grabs you (whether I referenced it or not.) This chapter also segues nicely with the discussions and musings on the Stark and Wildling connections with the Bael story among other things.

Overview

The rangers have been travelling for sometime before reaching the Skirling Pass and spotting a watch fire. Stonesnake and Jon volunteer to climb and ambush the Wildlings watching in the pass. They find three wildlings instead of the expected two and when Jon discovers the third Wildling who had been sleeping is a girl he offers her the option of yielding (which she does) and he spares her. While waiting for the others to climb the pass Ygritte tells Jon the story of Bael the Bard and the Winter Rose. When Qhorin arrives he says they can't spare anyone to watch captives. Jon notes that she yielded herself to him and Qhorin responds that it is Jon that must "do what needs be done." Jon spares her.

Observations

The climbing scene is an excellent demonstration of Jon learning through observation.

The rangers are still focused on Wildlings as the enemy though Qhorin seems aware of the other threat-- still lack of fire is a clear indicator of the threat he is addressing.

What is it Mance Rayder fears, I wonder?

“If he knew they’d lit a fire, he’d flay the poor bastards,” said Ebben, a squat bald man muscled like a bag of rocks.

Fire is life up here,” said Qhorin Halfhand, “but it can be death as well.” By his command, they’d risked no open flames since entering the mountains.

The flaying bastards line is worth noting given Ygritte's tale. The Bastard o' Winterfell's fate was to be flayed in all probability by a Bolton. In both cases "flaying" is associated with fighting the wrong enemy.

Jon's asking Ygritte to yield offers a very interesting contrast to Arya's comical "yield" chapter. She reminds him of Arya and Jon is "a wolf" which was the threat Arya and Gendry suggested yielding to.

Then he ripped open his thumbnail somehow, and after that he left smears of blood wherever he put his hand. He hoped he still had all his fingers by the end of the climb.

Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means ‘deceiver’ in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak.

Why Skagos? The tongue of the First men is at least one thing Skagos remembers that Winterfell has forgotten. Is there a Skagos connection to Winterfell that dates back to Bael's time that made him think it a suitable claim? The Bard names himself deceiver in a song Jon's history knowledge says can't be true. It clearly applies to his role in the tale but something to ponder all the same. Sygerrik-- any connection to Gerrick Kingsblood?

“They’ll have a horn,” said Stonesnake.

The Halfhand said, “A horn they must not blow.”

A little irony given what Mance's purpose here really is...

The sky was cloudless, the jagged mountains rising black on black until the very top, where their cold crowns of snow and ice shone palely in the moonlight.

The wind cut like a knife up here, and shrilled in the night like a mother mourning her slain children.

What few trees they saw were stunted, grotesque things growing sideways out of cracks and fissures.

Are these mountains the true crowned Kings of Winter? The wind and trees, the symbols of Old God power, are hostile, deadly, and stunted here.

Which king did Dalbridge squire for? Aerys II was deposed 15 years ago and ruled for about 20 years. Jaehaerys II only ruled for 3 years prior and before him was Aegon V (Egg.) Stonesnake is described as near 50 and at that age he technically could have squired for any of the those three. I don't see Dalbridge's age specified though. Aerys seems likely if he ended up in the NW unwillingly or perhaps it was Jaehaerys and when Aerys ascended the Watch seemed an attractive alternative? Mayhaps he squired for Balon which would readily explain his presence in the Watch. I don't see any important implications at the moment but it is a curious tidbit.

He was so close he could smell onion on her breath.

Ygritte will give a bit of her own commentary on Mel's half onion philosophy with her insistence that the onion's rot depends on where you stand.

Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain.

The Blue Rose wear her head had been could be viewed as symbolic of a Winter Rose Crown.

Jon squatted to let the direwolf close his jaws around his wrist, tugging his hand back and forth. It was a game they played. But when he glanced up, he saw Ygritte watching with eyes as wide and white as hen’s eggs.

Analysis

Family

Most of our prior occasions where Jon thinks of his fellow Watchmen as brothers had some element of a forced comparison. He would remind himself or compare his old and new brothers, but I think this is the first experience where he feels it without reservation. The experience of sleeping is the parallel that is drawn with the bed being what is different. The contrast of the bed serves to remove any distinction between the brothers.

It made Jon remember cold nights long ago at Winterfell, when he’d shared a bed with his brothers. These men were brothers too, though the bed they shared was stone and earth.

Without being explicitly stated, Jon has found the pack Arya hungers for to protect him when the cold winds blow. Much of Ned's lesson to Arya will come to guide Jon.

In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. ... the same blood flows through both your hearts.

Here we see shared warmth and strengths and eventually Jon will come to recognize who would truly do men harm and who has the same blood in their hearts.

Except Rickon, all Jon's siblings come up this chapter. Sansa isn't mentioned explicitly but we have this passage:

Yet even so, Jon Snow was not sorry he had come. There were wonders here as well. He had seen sunlight flashing on icy thin waterfalls as they plunged over the lips of sheer stone cliffs, and a mountain meadow full of autumn wildflowers, blue coldsnaps and bright scarlet frostfires and stands of piper’s grass in russet and gold. He had peered down ravines so deep and black they seemed certain to end in some hell, and he had ridden his garron over a wind-eaten bridge of natural stone with nothing but sky to either side. Eagles nested in the heights and came down to hunt the valleys, circling effortlessly on great blue-grey wings that seemed almost part of the sky. Once he had watched a shadowcat stalk a ram, flowing down the mountainside like liquid smoke until it was ready to pounce.

This recalls the magic beyond the Wall he first discovered at Craster's Keep where he does explicitly think of Sansa. His climb has a bit of a resemblance to Sansa's descent from the Eyrie and back at Craster's when Gilly approached him it was Sansa's advice on talking to women that came to mind and Ygritte will be his first romance. The yielding is also quite the chivalrous thing and brings to mind Sansa and her knights. The description of flowers in that passage also remind me of Ned, Sansa and Arya in the KL godswood after Bran recovered.

Arya, Bran, and Robb all come up explicitly.

Even so, he did not think of the foes who were waiting for him, all unknowing, but of his brother at Winterfell. Bran used to love to climb. I wish I had a tenth part of his courage.

Jon nodded toward the one by the fire. It felt queer, picking a man to kill. Half the days of his life had been spent with sword and shield, training for this moment. Did Robb feel this way before his first battle? he wondered, but there was no time to ponder the question

Something about her made him think of Arya, though they looked nothing at all alike. “Will you yield?” he asked, giving the dirk a half turn. And if she doesn’t?

Family is intertwined with the notions of blood.

So there it is—you have Bael’s blood in you, same as me.”

Qhorin Halfhand said. “You are the blood of Winterfell and a man of the Night’s Watch.”

Jon's ripped fingernail also gives us blood as responsibility recalling Aemon's speech where Jon also had blood on his hands mirrored in Ygritte with blood on her hands from Jon's dagger. Jon's refusal to kill Ygritte here strikes me as very much in the spirit of Ned's lessons on justice. He has been hearing her "last words" this whole time he's been waiting for Qhorin and seems to have concluded in his heart that she does not deserve to die.

The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man’s life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.

Blood of Winterfell also seems to be a phrasing fraught with meaning. I don't generally like jumping ahead but Jon and Qhorin will discuss this later and it was clearly his intention to let Jon make the call.

Qhorin agreed. “If I had needed her dead, I would have left her with Ebben, or done the thing myself.”

“Then why did you command it of me?”

“I did not command it. I told you to do what needed to be done, and left you to decide what that would be.”

There are seem to be two Ygritte beheading moments-- first with the dagger and then more traditionally with the sword. The notion of Littlefinger mocking the First Men justice tradition with the infamous dagger has me focused on dagger/symbolic beheading moments. It strikes me as noteworthy that Jon drew blood with the dagger but not the sword.

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Qhorin's toleration of Jon's refusal to execute Ygritte is unrealistic, IMHO. Qhorin is not a sadist, but we do learn that he has tortured captured wildlings for information, and could expect the same fate if he fell into their hands. It simply wouldn't be safe to let Ygritte live, in their situation. And, an experienced ranger like Qhorin would surely do the job himself. He'd know that a newly-recruited teenage boy, however skilled at arms, would find it impossible to kill a teenage girl in cold blood.

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Great stuff to catch up on. Really interesting discussions. :)

Winter comes up again when she proclaims that "Winter got no King" and like Ned's thoughts on his visit with Robert these old Starks are called "harsh men for a harsh time." Ned wanted his three year old to get over his fear of a direwolf. Just how harsh were these guys?

I guess as harsh as they were forced to be? :D

On a more serious note, I think we can see with the current Stark children that circumstances can assist in making people pretty harsh. Arya comes to mind as someone who's definitely turned far harsher during the course of the novels, but Jon will definitely have his fair share of that dish as well. Further we also have the hints in Davos' Manderly/White Harbor chapter that back in the day, the Old Gods worship may have been a lot harsher than it seems to be now.

The crypts and the remembering theme invite us to speculate on what that distinction between First Men and the Starks in Qhorin's words might be. So do the atmospherics throughout all these chapters and the ones to come. A Stark/CotF connection in some form is a very tempting thing to muse about but we just don't have evidence for it yet and may never get it. The only wargs that we know to have existed south of the Wall are Bloodraven and the Stark children-- with some hints from the crypts that Stark Kings being direwolf wargs may have been commonplace in the distant past. The existence of wargs beyond the Wall does point to a deeper connection between the Starks and the Free Folk. Bloodraven is the only non-Stark warg though his House has that peculiar dead weirwood haunted by ravens which just invites mystical speculation.

I find this very intriguing as well. The North is an area where the mystical and almost semi divine seem tied strongly to the Starks. The Starks have after all been involved in virtually every major event in the North that we know of (uncertain back in the Age of Heroes ofc) like the Night king, the story of Bael the Bard, the construction of the Wall, stopping wildling invasions of Westeros, they are known friends of the Wall and a Stark yielded the North to the Targaryen dragons.

Then we also have the Old Nan type saying that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, and as we now know, basically 99% of everything Old Nan says is true :lol: then if this is not completely true, then at least it has truth in it.

Then there is the intriguing possibility of the old Stark kings of winter also being wargs, which makes a certain amount of sense considering they are pictured in their tombs with pet direwolves. It also follows the theme that a lot of old knowledge has been lost, so also the knowledge of what the old kings of winter were like, and that there may have been wargs south of the wall as well. Clearly, it seems the statues of kings with pet direwolves hint that there were at least direwolves south of the Wall.

There are also commentaries like Osha's and Qorin's that enhance that "mystical" quality of the Starks.

Thinking of Starks, Winterfell and the cold winds are blowing, there are also Ned's words to Arya about how the pack survives in winter, and Sansa thinking that Winterfell is not a cold place, it is a warm place. So even if the old kings of winter were linked to the cold, we also see that Winterfell is warm, and in the north, fire means life and warmth. And the possible death of the wights.

The Stark - Winterfell - winter triangle just has so many little tidbits in all the Stark chapters (and in some of Tyrion's and Theon's as well).

Now when the rambling is over, time to actually comment on the chapters. :P If I can find my notes...

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Several references to Lyanna Stark in Jon VI (it feels weird to write that, like referencing yourself :lol: ). Clearly the Bael the Bard story is told to Jon and even though it has other applications as well, it is certainly reminiscent of how Rhaegar the singer and harp player nicked Lyanna Stark after giving her the crown of blue roses. She was also the "maiden daughter" of Winterfell and what came back was a babe.

There's also the oblique reference to Lyanna as just before Jon is regaled with this tale he thinks that he joked that he never knew he'd find his mother in the Frostfangs. But in a way, he does, since the story of his parents is contained within the Bael the Bard story, at least to a point.

Then Ygritte also gives the other side of the story to Tyrion's rather flippant and somewhat derogatory reply to who Jon's mother was "Some woman, no doubt", which Jon himself adopts, even though he wonders and worries about who his mother was. Ygritte tells him how her mother used to sing the Bael the Bard story to her and that Ygritte's mother was a woman too, like Jon Snow. So instead of it being flippant and derogatory, Ygritte's comment, I think, fills the role of mother with meaning, with mother's love and care. Jon himself worried that his mother might be a whore, or that she didn't love him because she left him, and so far Jon has heard few positive things about his absent mother, yet Ygritte here manages to tell him in a round about way that most likely, his mother was probably not so different from hers. It's nice, I think.

The end of the story with the Stark lady throwing herself out of the window also has connotations to Ashara Dayne's fate, and to the song Arya listened to in Braavos of a princess in a tower who threw herself off it due to a lost love, which Arya found "stupid".

There's also another reference to Jon's parentage when he is going to execute Ygritte.

He was his father's son. Wasn't he? Wasn't he?

An interesting concept, since it makes us question, "What would Rhaegar do?" (isn't the normal question "What would Randyll Tarly do?" which would be answered as "Washing it out with lye"). Would Rhaegar have executed Ygritte, or someone in Ygritte's position? We don't know a huge amount about him, but judging by what we do no, I am leaning towards no. He didn't seem like a man who reveled in violence and going by the Hound's bitterness about how Gregor was knighted by Rhaegar Targaryen himself, it seems to infer that Rhaegar took the knightly virtues seriously (which Gregor does not).

Some little tidbits for Fire Eater:

A possible reference to Catelyn and how she died:

The wind cut like a knife up here, and shrilled in the night like a mother mourning her slain children.

The mountain being "your mother" seems to suggest similarities to Sansa's climb in the Vale together with Mya Stone. She claimed the mountain as her father, while Mr Stonesnake claims it as his mother.

Regarding the dagger at the throat drawing blood, that's an interesting parallel to Sansa's encounter with the Hound during the Battle of the Blackwater. Jon is soon about to enter into a sexual relationship with Ygritte, and here he draws a dagger, such a very phallic symbol, puts it to her throat and draws blood, while thinking:

One thrust and it's done

So I think the deflowering connotations there are pretty strong (although thankfully Jon seems to be nowhere near one-thrust Tyrion's approach :lol: ). It's also not Ygritte being deflowered but Jon himself.

Lastly, a small geological complaint.

Granite is not a black type of rock. It is normally pinkish or possibly a bit grey, light-coloured bedrock consisting of mainly quartz, mica and feldspar, but it's not black. If you want black rock, you need to think basalt, gabbro or diabase. Even amphibolite would do. But not granite.

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Qhorin's toleration of Jon's refusal to execute Ygritte is unrealistic, IMHO. Qhorin is not a sadist, but we do learn that he has tortured captured wildlings for information, and could expect the same fate if he fell into their hands. It simply wouldn't be safe to let Ygritte live, in their situation. And, an experienced ranger like Qhorin would surely do the job himself. He'd know that a newly-recruited teenage boy, however skilled at arms, would find it impossible to kill a teenage girl in cold blood.

I disagree with this assessment. The way I see it, Qhorin seems to employ a tool for every task approach with both men and resources. Like you said, he isn't a sadist so is not like he goes around torturing people for kicks. However, to employ this approach is clear he takes the trouble to know his men and the resources available to him as best he can, and that was the Ygritte business was all about.

He employed methods of torture with the particular wilding we heard about because he wanted information in service of the NW. In this case, the value of that particular wilding was in the information he could have provided giving he was riding with Alfyn Crowkiller, one of the most infamous wildings, and as far as Qhorin knew, probably even in Mance's inner circle of trusted raiders.

Ygritte's is a different case. Yes, he could have tortured her for information (which he already had) or just killed her (which would have rendered her useless), but he assessed that he could make a useful tool out of her. Namely providing him with a way to "know" Jon Snow, following his get to know your men mentality. At this point of the story Qhorin doesn't really know Jon, but is clear he has heard of his warg abilities and his connection to WF and by extension the Old Gods, and God knows what else, giving that Jon can be a very polarizing figure at the Wall. That's why he chose him for the ranging in the first place. But Jon the boy/man is still a mystery at best. Ygritte provided him with the way of knowing the person behind the warg, the WF connection, the bastard stigma, etc. And he found out that behind all these was a straight forward and honest young man (Jon later admits himself that he led her go) who can see past the wilding stigma and still see people (unlike men like Thoren Smallwood, whom Qhorin seems to consider idiots) and who will kill only if he had to in the name of duty (like when he killed the other scouts) but who will refuse to do it if the situation doesn't merit it, showing he isn't a cruel person. Knowing all this help him and the NW more than a dead Ygritte.

Risking the possibility of Ygritte getting loose is a bit of a gamble, but is a case where the benefits he expected to reap from it exceeded the risk; just like taking an unseasoned and very young (more than one man refer to Jon as half a boy in Qhorin's presence) steward for a dangerous ranging was a gamble, but one he made based on the benefits he expected to receive from Jon's warg abilities and ties to the Old Gods. All this in service of the Realm. And his words to Mormont- we can only die...but our deaths will buy our brothers time- show that he knew the risk and the price and was willing to take it, provided the sacrifice went in service of the NW and by extension, the Realm.

He'd know that a newly-recruited teenage boy, however skilled at arms, would find it impossible to kill a teenage girl in cold blood.

Did he? Did you not see the kind of recruits that were training with Jon? I have no doubt believing that someone like Rast would have had no problem killing Ygritte, if not worst.

@Ragnorak, great summary!

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The story of Bael the Bard is backshadowing for Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship. Rhaegar was a skilled musician and absconded with Lyanna who loved him and her family thought he kidnapped and raped her. Jon is told he has Bael's blood, and this is true when Rhaegar played Bael. Bael can also be found in Baelor, who is foreshadowing for Jon in THK.

Baelor Breakspear is the Targaryen Crown Prince and heir to the Iron Throne, but he doesn't look like a Targaryen prince with his dark hair and scarred face with no jewels or pomp. He is the perfect example of the warrior-statesman, and being a mix of pragmatism and idealism. He insists upon hostages from the houses whom he fought against in the Blackfyre Rebellion to avoid flare-ups, and also defended a mere stranger, Dunk, against his brother, nephews and knights of the KG in a trial by seven.

Jon is the heir to the Iron Throne, but he doesn't look like a Targaryen with his dark hair and a clean-shaved, scarred face, and plain dress. He insists upon hostages from the wildlings who fought at the Battle of the Wall to avoid flare-ups. Jon defended a mere stranger, Sam, against Halder and other boys in the yard ordered by Thorne. Jon does have Baelor's Targaryen blood.

While everyone agrees the story of Bael the Bard is foreshadowing for R+L=J, it is also foreshadowing for Sansa and LF. You can find the name "Bael" in Baelish; Bael took a Stark girl from the Lord of WF and left a rose in her place while Baelish took a Stark girl, Sansa, from the Lannisters, and left a rose, Margaery Tyrell, in her place. The story ends with Bael's natural son killing him, LF's demise will be at the hands of his "natural daughter", Alayne.

over a wind eaten bridge of natural stone with nothing but sky to either side. Eagles nested in the heights

This reminds me of the stone bridge on the way to the Eyrie, and this could be another connection between Jon and Sansa and the switching of their roles.

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