The Jon Snow Reread Project II AGOT-ACOK

[Ragnorak]

I'll should have Sam I posted tomorrow.

Very nice work, Lummel.

Joramun?

From the accounts, Joramun is not a giant himself, but a past KBtW. From Jon III, aCoK:

We looked at this passage earlier to underscore the importance of Winterfell’s role as the Watch’s last line of defense. Now, the big mystery is what the Horn of Joramun really is, whether this is the horn the wildlings were looking for, and if so, have they found it.

After having witnessed giants, Jon repeats the line “And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter, and woke giants from the earth” several times over this chapter. Joramun’s horn, and Horn of Winter are treated synonymously across the series, but curiously, until the end of aSoS (when Jon meets with Mance again), this horn is only credited as being a giant’s alarm clock. That is, all mentions of this horn prior to Mance’s later clarification about it’s ability to take down the Wall, the HoW is said to merely wake giants from the earth, which is the magical power Jon focuses on here.

Does the Watch not know that this horn is supposed to do more than just “wake giants”? Is “wake giants” a euphemism for something else? Did old Nan not know about this alleged power to bring down the Wall either? I don’t believe that Mance completely fabricates the idea that the Horn of Joramun can bring down the Wall; later, in DwD one of the Flints mention Joramun’s Horn as able to bring down walls. It’s a strange mystery to me that the Watch, the Starks and old Nan seem to have forgotten the “bring down the Wall” aspect of the Horn, while the wildlings and a Flint make this association.

Back in Clash Qhorin mentions the idea of sorcery being used to breach the Wall.

“A breach.”

Mormont’s head came up sharply. “What?”

“They do not plan to climb the Wall nor to burrow beneath it, my lord. They plan to break it.”

“The Wall is seven hundred feet high, and so thick at the base that it would take a hundred men a year to cut through it with picks and axes.”

“Even so.”

Mormont plucked at his beard, frowning. “How?”

“How else? Sorcery.” Qhorin bit the egg in half. “Why else would Mance choose to gather his strength in the Frostfangs? Bleak and hard they are, and a long weary march from the Wall.”

Although he doesn't mention the Horn specifically if others are aware of a legend that claims it can bring down the Wall it isn't unreasonable to think this was in the back of his mind, It would also fit with a Benjen burying the Horn Mance was looking for. Are there legends of the Frostfangs that lend to a conclusion that sorcery is a thing to be found there? This passage seems to be the first reference even though there isn't a specific Horn mention.

Giants

Everything about the giants suggests the primitive. The smell, appearance, simple weapons, physical power, lack of clothes. As the wildlings are to the northmen so are the giants to the wildlings. The song The Last of the Giants expresses regret for the loss of a more primitive (but still existing north of the Wall) form of life without ownership of the land. We're having a Noble Savage ethos channelled to us with some 'civilised' criticism from Jon about the Wildlings lack of, from his POV, morality.

I like this. There's a distinct feel here of the American Indians who were a huge point of fascination during Martin's formative years. The same emotional pulls are at play in Ygritte's tears and much of classic American Westerns. On a broader level there is progress vs. tradition. The turn of the 19th to 20th century America saw the fading of the Frontier and the dying out of gunslingers in favor of the more structured and civilized way of life. Tolkein's scouring of the Shire was inspired by the destruction of the countrysides of his youth by the building of the railroads. My own cranky old man-isms lament play dates instead of "be home before the street lights come on" and a lack of imagination required for many of technologies new toys. At the heart of this emotional calling is a yearning for greater personal freedom and a desire to be insulated from those outside intrusions that bring change.

Such emotionally based fascinations often ignore the real reasons for progress. Steel has its advantages over iron and bronze, kneeling to lords in castles like Winterfell allow more people to survive the long harsh Winters, progress yields institutions of learning like the Citadel. and law and order yield safer travel opening "new" frontiers like Dorne, Southros and Essos. Still progress tends to wholly consume the old ways eventually down to the memories. The North is an odd place caught between the Andal progress and the old ways of the First Men we see surviving in a more pure form North of the Wall. The vertical geography is a bit like cultural and historical spectrum. The North Remembers, yet we are also told that Winterfell has forgotten what is remembered in the marshes of the Neck, on the island of Skagos and elsewhere. In many ways Jon's journey beyond the Wall is a journey into the past, into the lost memories of Winterfell.

Tyrion's trip down Mother Rhoyne serves as a similar parallel for Dorne and has its own ruins of lost giants. Much later we'll see Leathers and Wun Wun and their encounter with Selyse and the Last of the Giants replays both thematically and in Jon's head. It comes up to some degree in almost all of Wun Wun's references and will wish for a horn when Ser Patreck and Wun Wun are fighting in his last chapter just before getting stabbed. The Last of the Giants is a theme that plays out as something personal in Jon but also touches on much wider themes in the series. In Ned we have:

The rising sun sent fingers of light through the pale white mists of dawn. A wide plain spread out beneath them, bare and brown, its flatness here and there relieved by long, low hummocks. Ned pointed them out to his king. “The barrows of the First Men.”

Robert frowned. “Have we ridden onto a graveyard?”

“There are barrows everywhere in the north, Your Grace,” Ned told him. “This land is old.”

The white mists, the dead, and the dawn give us our overarching conflict of the series, but dawn is also the ultimate symbol of new beginnings. There is a contrast of dawn with the very land being shaped by the history of its dead. Ned is embarking on a journey to preserve Robert's new dynastic throne but it will be haunted by history. History must be resolved. Jon's eventual solution for resolving history is partly demonstrated through the Last of the Giants. Tyrion reflects at his trial by combat with Oberyn that everyone is just dancing on strings passed on by our mothers and fathers that will be passed on to children in turn. Jaime notes that Tywin's solution for resolving the Blackwood and Bracken history is the Rains of Castamere. Thematically I think Martin is doing a great deal with the Last of the Giants.

The Starks

Some references to the family in this chapter, but also Winterfell and its community – Jon thinks of the Wildling peoples as daggers forged into a spear against it (Jon's mental model is conflictual, is the Mance's different? Sheltering behind the wall from the white walkers must include peace with the North – otherwise how are they going to survive with enemies all around? Is this a problem in story or was Mance not thinking that far ahead or simply that desperate? ) the assumed threat to Winterfell gives rise to some finger flexing. Implicitly the question of honour, marriage and sex links us to Robb. Ygritte reminds Jon of Arya – are there any Sansa references in this chapter? There is a Ned reference at the end of the chapter ”Father forgive me”. The capitalised Father is something we've seen in Tyrion. The Ned is Jon's moral role model, also Jon's link to the old gods (the gods of my Father etc).

While I don't see any explicit Sansa references I think this is more of a Sansa story than one of Jon's favorites from Old Nan:

After that he had taken to using Ghost to keep her away. Old Nan used to tell stories about knights and their ladies who would sleep in a single bed with a blade between them for honor’s sake, but he thought this must be the first time where a direwolf took the place of the sword.

The idea of Ghost as a knight's sword also fits in with Sansa's thoughts of Jon as the Black Knight on the Wall. Ghost as a sword or symbol of honor is also interesting in and of itself.

The snowflakes melting in Tormund's hair stuck me too with regards to his memories of Robb (a memory Sansa also has in her last Storm chapter.)

“Big enough for you?” Snowflakes speckled Tormund’s broad face, melting in his hair and beard.

This also puts Tormund into more of a big brother figure than a surrogate father figure. The "big" in that quote refers to the giants and maybe their mammoths but later Tormund refers to big snowflakes in his bear tale which seems worth mentioning.

“Well, here’s a tale for you. It were another winter, colder even than the one I spent inside that giant, and snowing day and night, snowflakes as big as your head, not these little things.

[Ragnorak]

Sam I (ASOS)

Bran thought about it. “Can a man still be brave if he’s afraid?”

“That is the only time a man can be brave,” his father told him.

Summary

We open with Sam desperately plodding through the snow as what remains of the Watch continues to flee the Fist days after the wight attack. His inner monologue is a real time experience of all the dire portents we've continually heard of real cold, real snow, real Winter. Sam pieces together what he can remember of the battle at the Fist before he finally collapses. Small Paul carries Sam after Grenn can't get him up but they eventually fall behind and are left outside Mormont's ring of torches and Small Paul has to put Sam down. One of the pursuing Others finds them and kills Small Paul but Sam finds it in himself to stab the Other with the obsidian dagger killing it. Dawn is breaking and Sam and Grenn set off to catch up with Mormont.

Observations

Tears

Sam starts off sobbing with the first word of the chapter and we're told he's sobbing eight more times.

yet Jon saw no tears, heard no wailing mothers. These are winter’s people, he reminded himself. Tears freeze upon your cheeks where they come from.

The only thing he could do was cry, and when he cried the tears froze on his cheeks.

Sam would have cried for him, but those tears would only freeze as well, and he could scarcely keep his eyes open now.

He had seen the face before, but it took him a moment to remember. Paul. Small Paul. Melting ice ran down into his eyes from the heat of the torch. “Can you carry him?” he heard Grenn ask.

He wondered whether Dickon would shed a tear for his brother who died in the snow, somewhere off beyond the edge of the world. Why should he? A coward’s not worth weeping over. He had heard his father tell his mother as much, half a hundred times.

We seem to be witnessing Sam's transformation into one of Winter's people-- or at least the death of a Summer's Child.

Mother have Mercy

I can’t go on. Mother have mercy, I can’t.

“Mother have mercy,” he muttered in a hushed husky voice beneath the frozen mask. “Mother have mercy, Mother have mercy, Mother have mercy.” With each prayer he took another step, dragging his legs through the snow. “Mother have mercy, Mother have mercy, Mother have mercy.”

She can’t hear me, no more than the Mother Above. The Mother was merciful, all the septons agreed, but the Seven had no power beyond the Wall. This was where the old gods ruled, the nameless gods of the trees and the wolves and the snows. “Mercy,” he whispered then, to whatever might be listening, old gods or new, or demons too, “oh, mercy, mercy me, mercy me.”

“If you take the torch, I can take the fat boy.”

“Can you carry him?” he heard Grenn ask.

“I carried a calf once was heavier than him. I carried him down to his mother so he could get a drink of milk.”

“Could I have one of your ravens? Just the one. I’d never let Lark eat it.”

“No one’s like to wait for you, Paul. Leave the pig for the dead men.”

“He promised I could have a bird,” Small Paul said, even though Sam hadn’t, not truly. They aren’t mine to give. “I want me a bird that talks, and eats corn from my hand.”

Sam's prayer for mercy is answered with both a mother connection with Small Paul's calf recollection and a tie to the Old Gods with the raven connection.

This struck me as a contrast to Arya's trip to the Inn where they sand the Bear and the Maiden Fair. What are we to make of the undead bear attacking the Old Bear? Thoren Smallwood's bravery reminded me of Lummel's thoughts about Qhorin's task for Jon-- dying is the easy way out.

“Yes you do,” said Grenn. “How about ‘The Bear and the Maiden Fair’ everybody knows that one. A bear there was, a bear, a bear! All black and brown and covered with hair!”

“No, not that one,” Sam pleaded. The bear that had come up the Fist had no hair left on its rotted flesh. He didn’t want to think about bears. “No songs. Please, Grenn.”

This stood out because of someone's observation that Roose Bolton's soft spoken voice will come back to haunt him given Jon's recollection of Ned telling him how important a loud voice was in battle.

“NO!” Mormont had to bellow at the top of his lungs to be heard over the horns. “Call them back, we have to cut our way out.”

Is the screech from the sword hitting the wood of the torch or the fire?

When the ice blue blade brushed the flames, a screech stabbed Sam’s ears sharp as a needle. The head of the torch tumbled sideways to vanish beneath a deep drift of snow, the fire snuffed out at once.

Anything stand out in the description of the dying Other? I confess every time I read that I think of "I'm melting" and the Wicked Witch of the West.

When he opened his eyes the Other’s armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked. Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. “Mother, that’s cold.”

Analysis

One of the things that struck me was that Sam has a bit of an overlap with the Prologue in his opening POV. Next book Sam's opening chapter has probably the most significant overlap of any two POVs in the series so far since we get the whole scene repeated later from Jon's POV. He also has the meeting with Bran and then the meeting with Arya. Is there a theme here? Is Sam being set up as a unifying or reuniting figure? Maybe I'm reading too much into it. Tyrion and Dany have a bit of an overlap with the mummer's joust in the fighting pit so it may be less unique that my intuition believes. Just throwing it out there at the beginning to see if anything emerges.

Sam's observations of the battle more or less confirm the military assessments made by Jon, Mance and the Old Bear of the Watch and Wildling conflicts that never happen. It is the discipline that allows them to escape and break through which means these attacks must be far worse when they hit the Wildlings. If the defenses at the Fist helped hold back the undead hordes well enough for Sam to think they had a chance if only briefly they would surely have been devastating to Wildlings who actually die when shot by arrows. Mance noted to Jon last chapter that he had wondered why they had not suffered any attacks. Since the Watch being this far North took him by surprise he must have been referring to attacks by the Others. So there's a bit of an invitation to speculate on what a wight attack would have looked like on the Wildling march. The whole suspenseful build up to the Watch/Wildling conflict has the effect of emphasizing this common foe in the aftermath.

Sam's recollections are also filled with the moments of death of many of these minor characters in the Watch we've come to know. How one faces death is said to be a defining moment and we see this through Sam's memory but not in real time. At least for me, the overall way this tale of lost men is brought to us by Sam after they're gone conveyed a sense of Samwell the Maester who will one day write the definitive history of this time period that some Tyrion-like character will passionately read some day. It is hard to place exactly what triggered that and it might be related to already knowing that Jon will eventually tell him that he should be the one to write it down, but Sam is carrying a tale of answers to the reader after the fact on the heels of Jon witnessing the aftermath and posing the questions. So Sam is playing the role of storyteller for the incentive moment that ends Jon's last chapter. In a sense, Mormont's assignment to find the courage to send out the ravens may be what Sam's story is all about.

[Julian Rayne]

Sam's observations of the battle more or less confirm the military assessments made by Jon, Mance and the Old Bear of the Watch and Wildling conflicts that never happen. It is the discipline that allows them to escape and break through which means these attacks must be far worse when they hit the Wildlings. If the defenses at the Fist helped hold back the undead hordes well enough for Sam to think they had a chance if only briefly they would surely have been devastating to Wildlings who actually die when shot by arrows. Mance noted to Jon last chapter that he had wondered why they had not suffered any attacks. Since the Watch being this far North took him by surprise he must have been referring to attacks by the Others. So there's a bit of an invitation to speculate on what a wight attack would have looked like on the Wildling march. The whole suspenseful build up to the Watch/Wildling conflict has the effect of emphasizing this common foe in the aftermath.

TFH: I didn't think about it until I read this post but why wasn't there an aggressive attack on the Wildlings at any point? Not on Mance's army, not on Tormund's remnant. The defenses of Tormund's column were wholly inadequate, and imagine how Mance's army could have been devastated if they had been caught between the Others and the Wall. Attacked in the rear while they were concentrated on the Watch (although it would be interesting to speculate on how the leaderless Watch would react). Instead they just nibble at the edges to remind everyone that they're there.

Is it possible that the Others want the Wildlings south of the Wall? I can't imagine why they would but perhaps it serves their purposes somehow.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Maybe the Others didn't want to show their hand that fast (by massive attacking the Wildlings), but they couldn't let the opportunity to kill 300 NW men go since it would make things easier later, or they by that time had the Wight-power to do it because they were chipping off bits here and there from the Wildlings.

It's perhaps too early to bring it up, yet interesting none-the-less: do I remember correctly that Tormund stated the Wildlings had never seen an Other before, but only dealt with Wights so far?

Maybe the Wildlings are too disorganised for the Others to bother with them, but they know the NW has more structure thus a more personal approach is better?

[Lummel]

Interesting idea regarding the Horn. Martin uses Biblical stories sometimes and the Wildlings aka freefolk coming through the Wall reminded me a bit of Israelites coming into the Promised land crossing the Jordan and being led by Joshua...

I agree, this is the vibe I get from the story too. South of the Wall is the Promised Land for the Wildlings - yet this ties in with precisely the tension between progress and loss that Ragnorak picks up on. Going south into the promised land means the loss of some things associated with their northern way of life

...There's a distinct feel here of the American Indians who were a huge point of fascination during Martin's formative years. The same emotional pulls are at play in Ygritte's tears and much of classic American Westerns. On a broader level there is progress vs. tradition...

Agree entirely.

I don't know with the giants and the Joramun's horn business. It might be plot significant, it might be McGuffin - fear of a horn that can bring down the Wall certainly does motivate action, but then again it could be worldbuilding. One can a la Butterbumps postulate 'historical' (ie in story) sophisicated giants or an actual Wall destroying horn, but one doesn't have to for the story to make sense. Lots of these details are presumably there to give the suggestion of storys beyond this one and the sense of a real world.

I'll come back to sam in a bit

[Ragnorak]

TFH: I didn't think about it until I read this post but why wasn't there an aggressive attack on the Wildlings at any point? Not on Mance's army, not on Tormund's remnant. The defenses of Tormund's column were wholly inadequate, and imagine how Mance's army could have been devastated if they had been caught between the Others and the Wall. Attacked in the rear while they were concentrated on the Watch (although it would be interesting to speculate on how the leaderless Watch would react). Instead they just nibble at the edges to remind everyone that they're there.

Is it possible that the Others want the Wildlings south of the Wall? I can't imagine why they would but perhaps it serves their purposes somehow.

Piecing together the timeline it seems that Mance originally wanted to fight the undead hordes. In Bran back in GoT when they first meet Osha is the first time we hear this if memory serves. At some point, probably after trying to fight unsuccessfully or with unacceptable losses, Mance changes his plan to hiding behind the Wall. He claims to have met Dalla on his return from Winterfell and the warning about sorcery is supposedly hers. Mance may well have wanted to assess Winterfell and the King in order to size up his options. This could have been to seek allies against the undead, get a measure of the resistance should he move south or both. We can assume that he saw at least as much as Jon did during the feast. He would have left knowing the King was weak and consumed with infighting in the South, that Ned was going South with him and that Robb would be left as Lord in his absence. Given the time between the feast and Osha's appearance he apparently still wanted to fight the undead upon his return from Winterfell and only later changed his mind.

The sorcery/magic angle offers some speculation material. He noted the direwolf pups at the Stark children's feet and most likely made the warg connection. Mance orders Varymyr to send his wolves sniffing after wights so he knows of at least some usefulness with wargs fighting the Others. How much. if at all, this plays into his assessment and treatment of Jon is a matter of conjecture. If Dalla knew the legend of the Horn and its likely burial place what does she know of the Stark history and its speculated upon connection with the CotF/Last Hero/Long Night/etc? It is all allusion to something more involved without any real evidence in the text to speculate with specificity which plays into Lummel's observation about world building and stories.

As to why there are no major attacks I don't know. The Others could be like vampires that are only attacking to feed and thus don't want to slaughter the herd. They might be far fewer and don't want to take risks. They might be building their undead numbers before risking a major assault.

I agree, this is the vibe I get from the story too. South of the Wall is the Promised Land for the Wildlings - yet this ties in with precisely the tension between progress and loss that Ragnorak picks up on. Going south into the promised land means the loss of some things associated with their northern way of life

I'll come back to sam in a bit

I like the biblical Promised Land theme though I'm not sure what to make of it. The slavery story in Essos has Dany as a messianic figure which has parallels to the Israelites enslaved in Egypt seeking deliverance to a figurative Promised Land. The Wildlings abhor slavery and even arguably have "too much" freedom with their somewhat lawless ways but yearn for a literal or geographic Promised Land yet one where they fear "slavery" in terms of a loss of that freedom. I suspect there's a better way to compare the two thematically that just hasn't occurred to me.

[Lummel]

...Anything stand out in the description of the dying Other? I confess every time I read that I think of "I'm melting" and the Wicked Witch of the West.

I noticed this time how the White Walker and Samwell are opposites. The Other is graceful, doesn't break the crust of the snow and is skillful in their movements and use of their weapon. Sam is clumsy, awkward, with two clubfeet, dragging himself through the snow, charges blindly at the White Walker.

It is also a reverse of the first prologue. Royce was proud, confedient of his skill, well kitted out and dies. Sam is full of shame, feels unworthy, his kit feels awkward, his skills lacking - but he kills the enemy.

Further Sam is the anti-watchman (can't do anything that a watchman traditionally should, appearing woefully inadequete in comparision to the bearded men with long axes from the Shadow Tower or Smallwood - all of whom die) who perhaps fulfils the watch's true person and so bears out the value of Jon's trust in him in AGOT.

Sam's recollections are also filled with the moments of death of many of these minor characters in the Watch we've come to know. How one faces death is said to be a defining moment and we see this through Sam's memory but not in real time. At least for me, the overall way this tale of lost men is brought to us by Sam after they're gone conveyed a sense of Samwell the Maester who will one day write the definitive history of this time period that some Tyrion-like character will passionately read some day. It is hard to place exactly what triggered that and it might be related to already knowing that Jon will eventually tell him that he should be the one to write it down, but Sam is carrying a tale of answers to the reader after the fact on the heels of Jon witnessing the aftermath and posing the questions. So Sam is playing the role of storyteller for the incentive moment that ends Jon's last chapter. In a sense, Mormont's assignment to find the courage to send out the ravens may be what Sam's story is all about.

Sam will also carry the answer to Bran's fate, he comes close to saying something that feels significant in that AFFC/ADWD cross over too :dunno:

That question of how he faces death is a good one, I get the impression he is keen to die to escape his troubles here - an opposite to Tyrion in Tyrion I AGOT for whom life is full of possibilities. For Sam at this point all of those possibilities seem distinctly worse than death.

TFH: I didn't think about it until I read this post but why wasn't there an aggressive attack on the Wildlings at any point? Not on Mance's army, not on Tormund's remnant. The defenses of Tormund's column were wholly inadequate, and imagine how Mance's army could have been devastated if they had been caught between the Others and the Wall. Attacked in the rear while they were concentrated on the Watch (although it would be interesting to speculate on how the leaderless Watch would react). Instead they just nibble at the edges to remind everyone that they're there.

Is it possible that the Others want the Wildlings south of the Wall? I can't imagine why they would but perhaps it serves their purposes somehow.

The implication to my mind is that the White Walkers want - big presumption there that they are creatures capable of wanting but never mind - to clear the humans out of the north and are satisfied with herding them south of the Wall. My suspiscion is that they are looking to create a human free zone for some reason.

...I like the biblical Promised Land theme though I'm not sure what to make of it. The slavery story in Essos has Dany as a messianic figure which has parallels to the Israelites enslaved in Egypt seeking deliverance to a figurative Promised Land. The Wildlings abhor slavery and even arguably have "too much" freedom with their somewhat lawless ways but yearn for a literal or geographic Promised Land yet one where they fear "slavery" in terms of a loss of that freedom. I suspect there's a better way to compare the two thematically that just hasn't occurred to me.

I think the wildlings have too much freedom, a promised land maybe represents a place in which there is a humane balance between the extremes of an absolute freedom that you have to fight against everybody to maintain and an absolute unfreedom in which you are completely at another's mercy :dunno:

[Lady Arya's Song]

What I find interesting about the Wildlings and the promised land idea is that in the real story when the Israelites were moving and camping and moving towards the Jordan River they were constantly attacked by a group called Amelek. They would attack the old and feeble and those who did not keep up with the main group. Eventually Joshua had to fight them in a great epic battle...guess we will find out later if Jon is parallel to a Joshua figure.

There are many messianic motiffs not just the main one that many christians think of.

Moses is a messiah, Joshua is a messiah,,any hero who brings deliverance to a people is considered a messiah as is Dany over in Essos with the slavery.

Regarding Horns in general in the story.

Regarding the horn of Joromun and the other horns in the story. The horn of winter ,the horn of Herrock, the horn in Mance's tent, the dragon horn with Victarion.

It the horn... really jumped out at me in regard to Jaime Lannister who has many parallels to Jon .

I would love to see a thread that compared these two characters. I keep finding similarities in their story arc.

Jaime also has a horn traveling with him. When he approaches the gates of Harrenhall, he has Ser Kennos of Kayce blow the Horn of Herrock, black and twisted and banded in old gold. When three blasts had echoed off the walls, they heard the groan of iron hinges and the gate swung slowly open.

Sorry a bit off topic so when we get to Jon's chapter later that falls in line with some of Jaime's experiences..I will bring them up then. Love this thread. Big thanks to those who post.

[Lummel]

What I find interesting about the Wildlings and the promised land idea is that in the real story when the Israelites were moving and camping and moving towards the Jordan River they were constantly attacked by a group called Amelek. They would attack the old and feeble and those who did not keep up with the main group. Eventually Joshua had to fight them in a great epic battle...guess we will find out later if Jon is parallel to a Joshua figure.

...

It the horn... really jumped out at me in regard to Jaime Lannister who has many parallels to Jon .

I would love to see a thread that compared these two characters. I keep finding similarities in their story arc...

Jaime and Jon

Jon and Jaime

well there are two threads on the topic, so a couple of other people see the parallels too.

With regard to the biblical leaders I suppose another similarity is that they are also lawgivers looking to form a new society, possibly that is more relevant to Daenaerys who looks to be a bit of a Moses type (which would please those who don't want to see her rule in Westeros) than to Jon and The Mance.

[Maia]

Wanted to comment on the several last chapters discussed. Oh, and whatever happened to the MultiQuote function? Scratch that, quoting seems to have gone berserk in general. Help!

Meanwhile I just used cursive for quoted text.

If I have to pin one motive on Mance, I’ll be more inclined to go with the envy for freedom, but a freedom to live HIS life as he wished; in other words, a desire to come and go as he pleased, minding nothing but his own pleasure.

Indeed. Personally, I see nothing noble or moral in Mance's decision to desert and then to turn on and slaughter his sworn brothers, using the training he received from NW. It seems to be almost Chett-like, in fact, or at best Daeron-like when we come to it. Maybe more the latter, since acceptance that the wildlings showed him and admiration his music and his fighting skills won him surely played a big part in his defection.

OTOH, to Mance's credit, once he learned about the threat of the Others, he didn't just run far away from it - as he certainly had ability to do, but tried to protect the wildlings one way or another.

It is also more than odd, IMHO, that Mance allegedly never met Benjen. First of all, Jon seems to have known Benjen since he was a young boy, so it seems that Benjen visited on a semi-regular basis, even after he joined NW. Which would be in-line with special treatment that the Starks historically received at the Wall. So, wouldn't it have been logical for Benjen to be part of Qorgyle's retinue, along with Mance?

Or if, by some chance, he was out ranging at the time, still, Mance was a notable ranger and Benjen was surely being groomed for command, so it seems likely that he must have visited the Shadow Tower.

I know that GRRM has been vague about when exactly Benjen joined NW, but it seemed to have happened before the Greyjoy Rebellion, no? So, Benjen would have been in NW for 2-3 years at least. So, yea, strange. I agree with those who think that there is more to it, maybe some sort of subterfuge going on.

However, I find there is nothing heroic about the man in the song. He wanted something he couldn’t have, went after it breaking the rules and paid the price for it. Idealistic in some form, but definitely not heroic or self-denying, very much like Mance’s desertion.

Couldn't agree more. Though, one could argue that Mance's actions once he learned about the danger of the Others were heroic. On the gripping hand, they went along with perks of power and glory, as well as danger, so hm... Mance never seems burdened down by power and responsibility to me, but of course we don't have his PoV...

I have to say that Mance's decision to send Jon over the Wall with Stigg's party never made any logical sense to me and seemed awfully contrived from the get-go. A self-made leader in Mance's position couldn't have missed Jon's inner turmoil even if the boy's reasons seemed believable.

And he certainly should have known that it would become much more difficult for Jon to stick to his new allegiance, once he has to attack former friends, etc. Much easier for him to cross that bridge as part of a big army, than as a member of a small covert ops group, where his personal responsibility would have been inescapably obvious to him.

What is more, there is no great advantage for Stigg's group to offset the increased danger due to Jon's presence. Jon has been on a ranging for months and never had any privileged information anyway. What little he tells the wildlings about NW patrols, etc., Mance himself already knows.

Yea, I know that Jon needs a chance to desert and save the day from the meta-narrative point of view, but I wish it had been done more convincingly. Like, maybe, there would have been some plan to gain vital access to something using Jon, so that it would have been worth the risk to take him along.

Re: vegetarian giants, a nice turn-around of the trope, but how would they be able to survive multi-year winters? I know, I know, it is not very plausible that _anything_ would survive them, but wouldn't it be even worse for the giants? I mean, they can't gain nourishment from the bark, etc., nearly as well as herbivores an they are huge and need a lot of food. Maybe they hibernate?

TFH: I didn't think about it until I read this post but why wasn't there an aggressive attack on the Wildlings at any point? Not on Mance's army, not on Tormund's remnant. The defenses of Tormund's column were wholly inadequate, and imagine how Mance's army could have been devastated if they had been caught between the Others and the Wall.

I wouldn't be so sure that the wildlings were that defenseless against the Others. Both Mance and Tormund broadly hinted at some privileged knowledge re: how to fight them and wildlings clearly have more magic than NW. Not enough to fight the Others and win, perhaps, but possibly enough to make them a less tempting target.

Is it possible that the Others want the Wildlings south of the Wall? I can't imagine why they would but perhaps it serves their purposes somehow.

And/or this. The Others may have wanted the wildlings to breach the Wall. That may have allowed them to cross it. Or... was Craster really that unique regarding his apparently decades-long arrangement with the Others? Could there be more Other-collaborators among the wildlings, who may have secretly brought them across or let them in later? A frightening thought.

[Lummel]

Maia was saying:

Don't have to say anything useful about the Horn of Joramun, except that, yes, Biblical inferences are also strong. And yet, it seems that it was never used? The Wall is still there, after all. Does it only work as intended "when the stars are right"? Was it commissioned by/made under the influence of the Others, perhaps?

yes it is funny isn't it, if Joramun blew the horn as part of teh deposition of the 13th Lord Commander then was the Wall built twice? Or was it still underconstruction at the time! :laugh:

But, as Butterbumps pointed out with the ADWD references, the story of a horn that can brings down walls is well known in the North. We could speculate a lot about this...

and also

Yea, I know that Jon needs a chance to desert and save the day from the meta-narrative point of view, but I wish it had been done more convincingly. Like, maybe, there would have been some plan to gain vital access to something using Jon, so that it would have been worth the risk to take him along.

It is tricky. If GRRM wants Jon to lead the defence of the Wall and be confronted with the job of assasinating The Mance then he has to rejoin the Watch. So the issue is how to get Jon over the Wall. Would we believe it if Jon got over the Wall on his own? Would it have stressed the story if Jon had met Coldhands and gone through the Black Gate?

The Mance sending Jon seems unnecessarily risky - keep your friends close and your enemies closer is the saying afterall - but it does give us the scene with the old man and some more page time with Jon and Ygriette to sharpen the sorrow at her death.

I think you could make it a case for the Jon over the Wall move as being GRRM's most awkward transition in the series to date, which considering how complex the story and character movements are is not bad :dunno:

[Maia]

Sorry, thought that re-posting would solve the quote issue. Nope.

[Maia]

yes it is funny isn't it, if Joramun blew the horn as part of teh deposition of the 13th Lord Commander then was the Wall built twice? Or was it still underconstruction at the time! :laugh:

Well, the Wall would have been much smaller back then, no? Vulnerable to conventional attacks. I know that heretical threads have some very interesting theories and I admire ingenuity and erudition of their authors. However, I still boringly believe that the Wall was built to protect the North against the Others and thus any artifact that could bring it down would be deeply suspicious.

I also don't see wildlings refraining from using the Horn to attack the North more easily, if it worked as advertized without any restrictions. But if it only worked at certain times, when it would be advantageous for the Others? Well, I could see it getting lost.

Hm... now that I think about it, it may have been made by the CoTF, maybe even for some other purpose initially. But it still only works "when the stars are right", IMHO. Well, at least the Others have no tentacles...

P.S. A simple quote worked OK. Hm...

[butterbumps!]

TFH: I didn't think about it until I read this post but why wasn't there an aggressive attack on the Wildlings at any point? Not on Mance's army, not on Tormund's remnant. The defenses of Tormund's column were wholly inadequate, and imagine how Mance's army could have been devastated if they had been caught between the Others and the Wall. Attacked in the rear while they were concentrated on the Watch (although it would be interesting to speculate on how the leaderless Watch would react). Instead they just nibble at the edges to remind everyone that they're there.

Is it possible that the Others want the Wildlings south of the Wall? I can't imagine why they would but perhaps it serves their purposes somehow.

In DwD (if not also later in aSoS), we're told that the Others had been attacking the wildlings, but kept to those on the outskirts of the horde. So while there was no massive attack as Mance says, it seems that the wildlings were being picked off at the edges, as you note.

I have 3 guesses as to why the Others attacked the Watchmen at the Fist directly, but didn't launch a similar attack on the wildlings. First, the number of wildlings are massive and spread out across miles, whereas the Watchmen were much fewer and rounded up rather concisely, rendering them a much easier target. The Fist offers good defense against other men, who can't easily climb sheer walls, but the wights and Others were not tremendously disadvantaged by the climb-- which tells us something about the Wall, as there necessarily must be something more in its construction to thwart the Others, given that they can actually climb sheer surfaces. So I think the first reason is that the Watchmen were simply easier targets.

Secondly, I tend to believe the Others are fairly sentient-- they have a language, they wield magic, they dress like knights-- and as such I imagine they can distinguish enemies. Given that the Watch is the organization devoted to killing Others particularly, it stands to reason that they'd want to focus their greatest attack efforts at their sworn enemies.

The last reason is a bit more speculative. When we first looked at the First and the nature of Ringforts (i.e. that they aren't truly forts, but a demarkation of city boundaries intended to keep livestock contained), I'd wondered if it had once been a site of human sacrifice (i.e. the ringfort contained the humans like livestock enabling some sort of easy slaughter). Given Ghost's odd behavior as the Watchmen set up camp, and the fact that there seems to be "cold gods" and some religious system of worship and sacrifice with Craster, I wonder if the presence of so many men within the ringfort signaled some sort of offering. If it's a place of ancient sacrifice, the watchmen may have unintentionally set up their own offering of sorts.

[Julian Rayne]

I like the last reason, as speculative as it might be.

[Lummel]

...The last reason is a bit more speculative. When we first looked at the First and the nature of Ringforts (i.e. that they aren't truly forts, but a demarkation of city boundaries intended to keep livestock contained), I'd wondered if it had once been a site of human sacrifice (i.e. the ringfort contained the humans like livestock enabling some sort of easy slaughter). Given Ghost's odd behavior as the Watchmen set up camp, and the fact that there seems to be "cold gods" and some religious system of worship and sacrifice with Craster, I wonder if the presence of so many men within the ringfort signaled some sort of offering. If it's a place of ancient sacrifice, the watchmen may have unintentionally set up their own offering of sorts.

I find this very striking, particularly in combination with the ASOS prologue and the rededication of the lives of the men to the purpose of the watch and Mormont's words about wearing black because they had already sacrificed themselves for their cause.

However it does depend on GRRM having had in circa 2000 when he wrote this the same (or broadly similar) conception of what a Ringfort was as you offered up previously.

I suppose if the the White Walkers are happy that the Wildlings are leaving their realm than the pentration of it by the Watch could have been unforgivable?

[butterbumps!]

(the new quoting system gives me ulcers, so I hope this quote format works)

Jon III, aSoS

overview

Jon is with 120 wildlings, under the joint command of Styr and Jarl, making their way South to climb the Wall between Stonedoor and Greyguard. The party has made camp in a cave network, and will be making the climb the next day.

Jon takes an opportunity to say goodbye to Ghost, as the wolf won’t be able to climb with him. He tries to communicate instructions to head to Castle Black, and Ghost runs off. He’s then called before Styr and Jarl to report on the strength of the Watch; he inflates the Watch’s numbers, but truthfully explains that he doesn’t have information about patrol schedules.

Dismissed from the council, he goes off to find Ygritte, who’s been exploring the caves. We learn that he’s been proving faith to the wildlings by sleeping with her “half a hundred times” by now. Jon finds her in a secluded area, they discuss Gorne and Gendel, and before long, he bestows the “Lord’s Kiss” on her. After a bit more sex, the chapter ends with Ygritte’s wish to never leave the caves.

observations

• Jon and Ghost will be separated until Jon XII (he returns after Stannis makes his offer).
• Jon accepts that he’s a warg, but rues the fact that he’s not a better one (he’s only had one wolf dream so far).
• Constellation names: the wildlings and South of the Wall have the same names for the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning. King’s Crown -> the Cradle, Stallion -> Horned Lord, Smith’s red wanderer -> the Thief.
• wildling mating rituals: we learn that “stealing” a wife has a root in avoiding incest; according to Ygritte, incest “offends the gods.”
• Thenns: The Magnar claimed to be the last of the First Men, and ruled with an iron hand…Ygritte said the Thenns were savage fighters, and that their Magnar was a god to them. This might solve the mystery of why the Starks and others are referred to as having “blood of the First Men” rather than being First Men; perhaps the Thenns have kept their bloodline pure, whereas others haven’t.
• Craster: Craster’s more your kind than ours. His father was a crow who stole a woman out of Whitetree village, but after he had her he flew back t’ his Wall. She went t’ Castle Black once t’ show the crow his son, but the brothers blew their horns and run her off. Craster’s blood is black, and he bears a heavy curse.

analysis

it’s all in where one is standing

If there’s a main theme of this chapter, it’s about how definitions shift depending on one’s perspective to them. The chapter opens with Jon’s consideration of the nomenclature differences of constellations between wildlings and kneelers, segueing into development of Jon’s identity crisis on the eve of his changing “where he stands” once again.

Telling himself that he was just following Qhorin’s directive was one thing while in wildling territory, but the prospect of having to keep up the façade on home ground gives him a degree of anxiety. More importantly, there are certain parts of the façade that Jon doesn’t particularly want to give up. Jon’s initial struggle upon joining the wildlings was about selling a performance as a turncloak to win their trust so that eventually he could betray them to his brothers. Now, he’s played the role for some time, and further, come to enjoy parts of it, such that his new struggle is about girding himself to end the “play.”

Jon’s been struggling to reconcile being a double agent; though a direct order, his killing Qhorin in particular haunts Jon as an irreparable breach of his oath. Though he understands that it was an order and for a greater purpose, part of him truly feels like a turncloak for this (along with other actions done in service to his order), which means that some of his “role-playing” is not so squarely an act in his mind.

That part of him does see himself as a turncloak in truth has caused trouble in terms of selling the role. His inability to compartmentalize entirely leads him to feel guilt about being a turncloak, which renders it more difficult to sell his performance, which pushes him to up the ante in terms of convincing the wildlings he’s turned. It seems he’s pushed himself to more wholly integrate with them, and that, despite his guilt over it, doesn’t want to end it entirely.

Jon seems overwhelmingly full of sadness and regret here. There’s sadness because part of him believes he no longer belongs with his family or even the Watchmen:

He had never truly been a Stark, only Lord Eddard’s motherless bastard, with no more place at Winterfell than Theon Greyjoy. And even that he’d lost. When a man of the Night’s Watch said his words, he put aside his old family and joined a new one, but Jon Snow had lost those brothers too.

As it stands, he believes his one chance of belonging is with the wildlings, with whom he’s come to identify: “ [the Wall’s security measures are] For wildling raiders, he thought. Like us. Like me.” Yet, despite his belief that he will be a pariah to his former organizations, the Watchman in him is committed to betraying the only group he believes he can belong to. And even this commitment vacillates: “If all the wildlings were like Styr, it would be easier to betray them.”

There’s regret for both the actions he committed, as well as paths he never took: “I should have tried to kill Mance Rayder on the Fist, even if it meant my life.” He believes he’s a failure as a Watchman, and a failure as a double-agent: “He feared he might prove just as poor a warg as a sworn brother and a spy.” He also feels guilt for having sex, and regrets the fact that he keeps doing it for pleasure beyond anything that can be rationalized under Qhorin’s orders.

sex

The sex Jon’s been having with Ygritte seems to be causing the most conflict about loyalties this chapter. My personal take is that while there was pressure from Mance on Jon to prove his loyalty, I’m unconvinced that Jon was coerced. I think Jon’s loyalty could have been proven through other means (for example, not continuously lying about the Watch’s strength would have been a good alternative), but sex was both the most direct method, as well as the one he had personal interest in. Particularly, this passage leads me to believe the coercion, if any, was very light:

Two hearts that beat as one. Mance Rayder’s mocking words rang bitter in his head. Jon had seldom felt so confused. I have no choice, he’d told himself the first time, when she slipped beneath his sleeping skins. If I refuse her, she will know me for a turncloak. I am playing the part the Halfhand told me to play.

That it says “he told himself” there was no choice implies that the person who imposed “no choice” was himself. That he repeats the mantra that he’s just playing a role also suggests his own willingness to participate, yet not wanting to admit he’s willing:

A part, he tried to remind himself afterward. I am playing a part. I had to do it once, to prove I’d abandoned my vows. I had to make her trust me.

Perhaps most damning of all is his recollection of the first time they’d had sex. After “playing his part once” he vows that “It will never happen again,” yet

It happened twice more that night, and again in the morning, when she woke to find him hard.

Honestly, I think 98% of the reason he had sex with Ygritte was because he was attracted to her, she seduced him, and he wanted to.

We’re told that by this chapter, they’ve had sex at least 50 times; it’s clear he’s not just playing a role, but truly relishing it. When we see the on-page sex between them, his rationalizations lose momentum, and his guilt over intercourse has been worn down:

By the time the torch burned out, Jon Snow no longer cared.

His guilt came back afterward, but weaker than before. If this is so wrong, he wondered, why did the gods make it feel so good?

and

I am a man of the Night’s Watch, a small voice inside insisted, but every night it seemed a little fainter, and when Ygritte kissed his ears or bit his neck, he could not hear it at all.

gorne + gendel

To round out the theme of “where one is standing,” Ygritte recounts the tale of Gorne and Gendel, something of a cautionary tale about getting lost. Gorne was the King Beyond the Wall, who, with his brother, Gendel, led a host under the Wall through the caves. Gorne killed the KitN, but the KitN’s son killed Gorne. Surrounded by enemies, Gendel tried cutting free and entered the tunnels, but didn’t know them as well as his brother and never emerged:

“Deeper he went, and deeper, and when he tried t’ turn back the ways that seemed familiar ended in stone rather than sky. Soon his torches began t’ fail, one by one, till finally there was naught but dark. Gendel’s folk were never seen again, but on a still night you can hear their children’s children’s children sobbing under the hills, still looking for the way back up. Listen? Do you hear them?”

I think the tale stands on its own as a piece of Northern lore, but in the context of a chapter so thoroughly devoted to immersing oneself in enemy culture, knowing one has to retreat back, I can’t help think this is a parallel. It sounds like a warning to Jon about turning his cloak again once they are past the Wall, as given his immersion in her culture, it will never be the same: “when he tried t’ turn back the ways that seemed familiar ended in stone rather than sky.”

The parallel seems even more purposeful given Ygritte’s closing lines:

“Jon Snow,” she told him, when he’d spent his seed inside her, “don’t move now, sweet. I like the feel of you in there, I do. Let’s not go back t’ Styr and Jarl. Let’s go down inside, and join up with Gendel’s children. I don’t ever want t’ leave this cave, Jon Snow. Not ever.”

It’s as though she suspects that once over the Wall, Jon might seek to return to his post, which would jeopardize her own position with the wildlings. As they’d both be unable to return to where they came, and sensing the inevitable, she suggests they share their own limbo.

[Fire Eater]

A sinkhole in the center of the floor opened on what might have been an even greater cavern below, though the darkness made it hard to tell. Jon could hear the soft rushing sound of an underground stream somewhere below.

Coldhands tells Bran "The back door is three leagues north, down a sinkhole."

The CotF cave also has an underground river, and that could be the exact same underground river Jon heard in ASoS. Jon and the wildlings may have unwittingly found the back door.

In the dark, Ghost's red eyes looked black.

A reference to Jon's heritage as well as Ghost like the other direwolves, representing the honor of his master. Ghost going away relates to Jon's own internal struggle and feelings of dishonor.

[butterbumps!]

A sinkhole in the center of the floor opened on what might have been an even greater cavern below, though the darkness made it hard to tell. Jon could hear the soft rushing sound of an underground stream somewhere below.

Coldhands tells Bran "The back door is three leagues north, down a sinkhole."

The CotF cave also has an underground river, and that could be the exact same underground river Jon heard in ASoS. Jon and the wildlings may have unwittingly found the back door.

I'd thought about this too, but I'd realized they can't be the same entrance. Bran enters through the Nightfort and goes north for a good while when Coldhands says this; his cave is in the middle of the haunted forest, as is the sinkhole entry 6 miles north.

Jon's is farther west (between Stonedoor and Greyguard), and extremely close to the Wall (they are to make their climb the next morning, so they've made it to the Wall. It wouldn't be north of Bran's location-- it's southwest of Bran. I think it's probably the same river, but I don't think it's possible this is the entrance Coldhands is talking about.

[Mladen]

Well, it's been a while... The prodigal son returns to one of his favorite threads :)

First, lovely analysis, butterbumps... I really enjoyed it.

One of the things I learnt here is how to look at order of the chapters. To see how some motifs are being expanded more than just in one chapter, and how certain structures could be noticed. So, when it comes to this chapter(to be completely honest, I did this for my Davos reread, but it will be useful to mention here), there is certain structure in 4 chapters - Bran II --- Davos III --- Jon III - Daenerys III

In Bran II chapter, Meers says the story of Harrenhal tourney and QoLaB. In Davos III chapter, we have astonishing speech about ice and fire Melisandre said to Davos, then we have Jon's chapter, and to conclude we have Daenerys unleashing her dragons in Astapor... The composure of this four chapter talks about the essence of Jon being "song of ice and fire". It's impressive symbolic storytelling. In Bran's chapter we had how it all began, in Davos, we have metaphysical plain of Rhaegar/Lyanna union, then comes Jon's sexually-charged chapter with Ygritte, all to conclude with fire showing true devastating power through dragons... I think that these four chapters speaks volumes about Jon's parentage, and that symbiosis of ice and fire that is in him.