The Jon Snow Reread Project II AGOT-ACOK

[Winterfellian]

I still have yet to reread the chapter, so I don't have much to contribute except some general observations:

@Ragnorak, great work! I see that this was a chapter of some difficulty and you did a fantastic job with it. I particularly like this observation:

To rely on a septon is to disown the responsibility of making the choice. The same is true of relying on a code or the letter of the law. Doing so amounts to keeping your hands clean by placing the responsibility of choosing on something external. That isn't to say laws or religious codes are useless. They are fine guides in simple times and simple circumstances but are not designed to be a substitute for wisdom or an absolution of responsibility. Looking at this passage the Heart Tree stands in the role of septon for the Old Gods. Right and wrong must be decided by the heart-- the home of love and source of blood.

About the sword...

I generally view this tradition as a symbol for the transition of boy to man. It is a tradition that embodies not only the passing of family honor and traditions from one generation to another, but also the burden of responsibility to live up to that same honor and heritage. The sword in itself stands as a heavy burden, yet the very imagery of a sword suggests the strength to be able to defend and shoulder the very burden the sword represents. After Ned's deaths Robb inherits the Stark burden, but by never directly wielding Ice he never inherit the strength to defend it. Tywin is a man very much concerned with the legacy of his family, yet the Lannister family lacks an ancestral sword and even after they tried to steal one (borrowed honor- a concept I personally associate with the Lannisters) who was there to pick up Tywin's work after his own demise?

To add a little to Manderlay's insightful observation about Longclaw being a mean to tie Jon to the NW, what I like about the Jon and Longclaw connection is that, unlike in most cases, where the ancestral sword is passed down through tradition and custom, Longclaw comes to Jon through Choice. Being the Mormont's sword, following the traditional order of things, Jon was never meant to wield that particular sword (or any sword for that matter). Yet he did. It all started with Jeor choosing the Night Watch in favor of his son, and culminates with Jon choosing to accept it. Jeor didn’t give the sword because blood and tradition demanded it so, but because he chose to. Jon didn’t accept it because he is Jeor’s son but because he accepts the responsibility and burden Longclaw is conveying. Jorah’s leaving it behind suggesst his rejection to shoulder that same burden.

The sword is a dualistic element- it has the power to destroy and protect; it can lead to glory as much as it can lead to tragedy. But like Mormont tells Jon, it takes a man to wield the ancestral sword. Jorah, though older than Jon when he left it behind, was not man enough to live up to all that Longclaw represents. By choosing to accept and wield Longclaw Jon is unknowingly starting on the path to manhood. He goes from the recruit being groomed for command to a recruit who’s willing to accept that charge one day. But he’s not the same green boy who got excited and accepted to become a steward only when Sam suggested this notion, but a boy who is already familiar with the pain of choosing.

That green boy had serious misgivings about accepting the sword because he directly connected it to family legacy. This more tempered young man accepts it freely because he understands know that Longclaw stands for more than that- in this case the burden of responsibility; something he came to understand until having experienced firsthand the pain of having to choose and choosing the Night Watch.

[lakin1013]

As a reader, I found it upsetting that he left LongClaw on his bed. "It had been hard to abandon it but Jon was not so lost to honor as to take it with him." It bothered me. Old Bear had just given it to him, for goodness sakes, and as others have noted, that act of giving seemed like a father/son moment. That Jon so promptly leaves it behind made me think that Mormont would be disappointed in his pick for the sword, yet again! But Jon says that he is not so lost to honor to have taken it with him. Jon is seeing himself as a deserter and a deserter would not desecrate an honored gift. I am reading him as ungrateful and a bit peevish (the process of turning from a boy to a man). IThe last words of the chapter are Old Bear saying ... "Good. Now go put on your sword." While I like the touch of seeing the LC as forgiving, I very much appreciate the minor moment of release courtesy of Martin. Also, Jon's commitment to the LC and his forward turn gives the reader a frisson of excitement about what lies ahead.

[DrunkSister]

Jorah Mormont also left the sword when he ran for it!

[lakin1013]

I know Jorah left it, but Jorah WAS dishonored. This is such a small point, but the Stark kids for the most part, have appeared to be well-raised, educated, and fairly polite and kind. It just bothered me that Jon would get such a gift, then promptly leave it. And finally, while I do agree it was a test of sorts by LC, I do think the actual giving of the sword is in the final sentence of this chapter, and not when LC initially handed LongClaw to Jon. I read it like -- offered, tested, EARNED.

[Mladen]

I know Jorah left it, but Jorah WAS dishonored. This is such a small point, but the Stark kids for the most part, have appeared to be well-raised, educated, and fairly polite and kind. It just bothered me that Jon would get such a gift, then promptly leave it. And finally, while I do agree it was a test of sorts by LC, I do think the actual giving of the sword is in the final sentence of this chapter, and not when LC initially handed LongClaw to Jon. I read it like -- offered, tested, EARNED.

And Jon felt being dishonorable, when he deserted that night. He felt, with right, like dishonored men and he thought he has no right on that sword. I complement that... Not many men would leave such gift and not take it away and dishonor ancient sword with possible treachury. Jon did the right thing to leave the sword, especially towards Old Bear.

[Harlaw's Book]

And Jon felt being dishonorable, when he deserted that night. He felt, with right, like dishonored men and he thought he has no right on that sword. I complement that... Not many men would leave such gift and not take it away and dishonor ancient sword with possible treachury. Jon did the right thing to leave the sword, especially towards Old Bear.

I agree with this.

Sam with the giant’s shadow is an interesting image, and I’ve had a few different thoughts about it.

It might foreshadow the next time a giant interferes when Jon tries to leave for Winterfell.

It also is a really nice bookend to the image of Tyrion’s shadow being as tall as a king in Jon I. Since a giant is much bigger than a king, I wonder if Sam’s giant shadow foreshadows that his achievements will be larger than Tyrion’s.

I also thought the two shadow images make a nice juxtaposition of civilization/the wild. In Jon I Jon is outside and Tyrion’s shadow is lit from within –indicating a man made fire was the cause of the shadow. Tyrion goes back inside. So I think image set up Tyrion’s arc of hanging with Jon at the Wall for a little bit but then going back to civilization and the game of thrones. And since we don’t know how long Jon stayed out, we don’t know if/when Jon returns to civilization. In contrast, Jon IX has Jon the inside a building (the stable) and Sam on the outside with a natural source –the moon –creating the shadow, I think it signifies that by staying with Sam (and by extension the NW), Jon is choosing the wild over civilization.

Finally, I think the two shadow images provide another Targaryen-Stark juxtaposition. Tyrion’s shadow is created by fire, and the king reference (and I think reference is meant to suggest a Targaryen king rather than a King of Winter) is just another in the long list of the Targaryen references noted in Jon I. Meanwhile, Sam’s shadow contains more Stark associations. Night and the moon make me think of Arya –and Lyanna too because of the Arya-Lyanna comparison (the moon comes up in the conversation where Ned compares Arya and Lyanna) and because the moon contains a lot of maternal symbolism. And giants come up in Stark mythology while I can’t think any Targaryen-giant references. Then the rest of the chapter is loaded with thoughts on the Starks. Jon eventually choosing to stay with Sam is another instance of Jon choosing to walk the path more likely taken by a Stark than by a Targaryen.

I love how Jon thinks how he doesn’t have a septon to tell him what to do when he’s surrounded by representatives of the old gods, and they are telling him what to do. I think the behavior of Mormont’s raven and Ghost –specifically when Ghost betrays Jon’s position to the other boys –indicate the old gods (as represented by Bloodraven) want Jon to stay in the Night’s Watch –for now. However, in no way do I think Ghost and the raven’s actions in any way detract from how huge a struggle this is for Jon or make the decision any less Jon’s choice.

Jon’s last thoughts in the chapter are about asking for forgiveness from the other Starks. However, in the other Starks’ chapters, they never condemn Jon for staying in the NW. Whenever they think of Jon, it’s always “Jon Snow at the Wall.” Whenever I read those thoughts they come across as very matter of fact. Now, granted, the other Starks have other things to worry about besides Jon and his vows, and Jon’s chapters provide all the angst we need on the subject. However, I think the other Starks never thinking Jon would desert shows how, even Arya in this instance, accepting the Starks are of the norms of Westeros. It’s kind of similar to how they view his bastard status. Despite their affection for him, the Starks accept that Jon isn’t a Stark. And it seems like they understand/accept that the oath prevents Jon from marching with Robb more than Jon himself does. But the other thing I read from the Stark’s acceptance of Jon staying in the NW, is that they view him similar in a way that is similar to the way they view Ned. From both Ned and Jon, they expect them to always act in the honorable way. And similar to Ned, Jon struggles with doing the honorable thing much more than they realize.

[DrunkSister]

@Harlaw's Book

That was beautiful.

[Harlaw's Book]

@Mirijam

Aww! Thank you!

[Lummel]

...There is no clear choice. All paths are grey and right, wrong and honor pull in all directions. Throughout the chapter Jon's hand continues to pain him which I believe echoes back to the idea of blood on one's hands from Aemon's speech. There's also the issue of love and how that weighs on things...

Going back to this, there is also the road not taken in a literal sense but here there is a right and wrong path. Robb goes south and the following chapter sees him acclaimed as King in the North. But we know this is the wrong path. Mormont in this chapter asks if it matters who sits the Iron Throne when the cold winds are rising (compare with the Cold Gods of Craster's daughter-wives), Osha - with her regard for health and safety - has already warned Bran to tell Robb that he should be heading north not south, The Ned in Catelyn I AGOT spoke of going north but was drawn down south, that northern path ties Jon IX together with the Prologue. GRRM is pretty clearly telling us that the resolution in the deep north will be more important than the resolution in the south.

This I think requires us to reassess Jon XIII ADWD. The heart rejoices at Jon chosing Arya over the Oath but we know that (i) she's not there and (ii) it's the wrong way.

Unless the answer is in the crypts. "we've seen the dead rising" Jon sees them still in his dreams with his father's face (or his not-father as you will). Mormont doesn't want to see that again - yet the bones remember while Mormont tells us that the Watch has forgotten. Does this tie in with the (presumed) ancient oath breaking and the breach of the peace between the children of the forest and the first men?

Note too Jon taking us back to Bran I AGOT. The penalty for desertion is death, the reality of The Ned executing the deserter versus the fantasy of Robb accepting him into his army. Life is still a song for Jon. His thinking is not just black and white (was Aemon a coward or brave) but also is still childish - in so far as he denies the reality of his situation to himself. Also Bran seen through jon's eyes - his sense of responsibility, Fat Tom - himself dead in the King's Landing Putsch - again a victim of having gone the wrong way.

Is going the right way simply heading in a geographical direction or does that imply a different kind of journey that involves facing his own dead, his own past, perhaps something fundamental about his role / the Starks / the first men too?

[Winterfellian]

Going back to this, there is also the road not taken in a literal sense but here there is a right and wrong path. Robb goes south and the following chapter sees him acclaimed as King in the North. But we know this is the wrong path.

... Is going the right way simply heading in a geographical direction or does that imply a different kind of journey that involves facing his own dead, his own past, perhaps something fundamental about his role / the Starks / the first men too?

About the poem, am not sure we can view it only in the literal form or that we should. Thinking about the poem, I think Jon and Aemon both exemplify it in their own ways. Maester Aemon is the older man, who in his youth stood at the crossroad before choosing his own path and Jon as the younger man repeating Aemon’s dilemma on which path to take. But even if Aemon has already chose and travelled his own road he doesn’t seem any more sure that the young and inexperienced Jon that the road he took was the right one. Maester Aemon can’t and doesn’t tell Jon “make the choice I made”, but rather recalls as in a sigh that defining moment at the crossroad and how much it hurt to choose.

Taking a cue from the poem, the nature of both Jon’s and Maester Aemon’s decisions might be that there is no “right” path. There’s only the road taken and the one not taken. They will have to live with the consequences of their choices even if they both forever look back at the moment at the crossroad and ask themselves “what if”. I feel that Ragnorak’s line is more in tune with this approach:

There is no clear choice. All paths are grey and right, wrong and honor pull in all directions Is there really a right way when one is standing at the crossroad or is it only after upon reflecting upon consequences of your choices.

However, the common element between Jon’s first test and Aemon’s is that the idea of renouncement. While realistically, they staying with the NW constitute a path in itself, there’s also an element of stagnation as opposed to activity in their choice. Is not necessarily about choosing and travelling down a road but on turning their backs to a path only to continue traveling in the one they were already in. This contrast between stagnation and activity is something I feel resonates in Jon’s future decision in ADWD XIII.

@Harlaw, great post on the shadows displayed by Sam and Tyrion respectively.

[Lord over Seas]

I'm not sure if anyone already posted this, but here I go.

I just found this quote on Jon II from AGOT which seems a bit like a long distance foreshadowing to me:

Suddenly she looked like she was going to cry. I wish you were coming with us.

-Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle. Who knows? He wasfeeling better now.

After re-reading it, it just sounded like a big statement. And knowing how Jon has been 'freed' through death from his vows, it could have a literal meaning, having Jon and Arya reunited somewhere, or maybe metaphorical, both getting through the experience of death. (She as a faceless woman?)

[Lummel]

Huh, and today we are in the re-read forum. So...

...Taking a cue from the poem, the nature of both Jon’s and Maester Aemon’s decisions might be that there is no “right” path. There’s only the road taken and the one not taken. They will have to live with the consequences of their choices even if they both forever look back at the moment at the crossroad and ask themselves “what if”...

However, the common element between Jon’s first test and Aemon’s is that the idea of renouncement. While realistically, they staying with the NW constitute a path in itself, there’s also an element of stagnation as opposed to activity in their choice. Is not necessarily about choosing and travelling down a road but on turning their backs to a path only to continue traveling in the one they were already in. This contrast between stagnation and activity is something I feel resonates in Jon’s future decision in ADWD XIII...

I agree entirely in life that we live with the consequences of the choice and the other road is simply the road not taken, not necessarily intrinsically better or worse, simply different.

I disagree in the context of this novel. The road south for the Starks is the road to death, this was marked out for them by GRRM at the beginning of the story and perusing the endless ROBB COULD OF WON threads proves that Stark victory is only possible by changing the presumptions that GRRM wrote into his story. There is an antithesis in the novel between the struggle for the Iron throne - which we are told is a game - and the carefuly developed sense of menace from north of the Wall. Jon doesn't have a choice because he's the character in a GRRM novel (poor fellow) but isn't his path clearly a northern one?

...After re-reading it, it just sounded like a big statement. And knowing how Jon has been 'freed' through death from his vows, it could have a literal meaning, having Jon and Arya reunited somewhere, or maybe metaphorical, both getting through the experience of death. (She as a faceless woman?)

I think it is a big statement, I'm not convinced that it is limited to just Jon and Arya though and the notion of Jon being freed through death from his vows is very debatable (see the forums!)

[Winterfellian]

Huh, and today we are in the re-read forum. So...

Bummer

Is it me or this only happen to yours, butterbumps! and Ragnorak's threads? :ohwell:

Anyway...

I disagree in the context of this novel. The road south for the Starks is the road to death, this was marked out for them by GRRM at the beginning of the story and perusing the endless ROBB COULD OF WON threads proves that Stark victory is only possible by changing the presumptions that GRRM wrote into his story. There is an antithesis in the novel between the struggle for the Iron throne - which we are told is a game - and the carefuly developed sense of menace from north of the Wall. Jon doesn't have a choice because he's the character in a GRRM novel (poor fellow) but isn't his path clearly a northern one?

I don't disagree with you here Lummel. However I was trying to look at it from Jon's perspective. For us, readers, the south being the "wrong" path and Jon’s path being the northern one is clearer. Is it the same for Jon? The poor kid doesn’t know he’s a character in a novel and probably has an expiration date tattooed somewhere in his body. At this point in the story Jon has no way of knowing that his place is in the North (Mormont is the first person to ever voice this out loud). He can only decide and live with that choice. The decision to make the Wall his place comes from him, even if we readers with our omniscient knowledge naturally know this:

Jon Snow straightened himself and took a long deep breath. Forgive me Father. Robb, Arya, Bran…forgive me I cannot help you. He has the truth of it. This is my place.

Also, there is a limit if we were to look at this from a geographical standpoint. Even though we tend to associate the South with politics and the Game of Thrones, the road south doesn’t conduct to a fixed destiny. Right now taking that road means for Jon to ride away from the Wall and turn his back to the Night Watch. But when he’s with the wildings riding South means moving towards the Wall and therefore Night Watch. From one geographical location he rides south with the Wall to his back, and from the other he rides South with the Wall at front view. To repeat a line from his own story, it all depends on where you stand.

ETA-

After re-reading it, it just sounded like a big statement. And knowing how Jon has been 'freed' through death from his vows, it could have a literal meaning, having Jon and Arya reunited somewhere, or maybe metaphorical, both getting through the experience of death. (She as a faceless woman?)

Am not entirely sold on this line referring to Jon and Arya only. However I do like the idea of two roads that conduct to the same place and given the associations we have explored regardig Jon and the road I think is something to keep in mind.

[Ragnorak]

At the beginning, but then the moonlight is mentioned several times. Moonlight gave Jon the light to travel through the night down the Kingsroad, Ghost`s eyes glowed red on the moonlight, and lastly Mormont`s question: Was your moonlight ride so tiring? Of course, this could be nothing, just mere description, but the moonlight is something wolves associated with, and Jon`s loyalty to his family, is like awakening of wolf in him. Wolves like to run on moonlight, howl to the moon, play with snow during knights. Also it`s a full moon, so in a way, the return to his wolf personna aka Stark is something very common in the myths about werewolves... But, I do leave open space for being totally wrong.

There's nothing wrong the moon/wolf imagery aspects, just that this reference seemed particularly focused on Sam which struck me as odd and probably meaningful. Following that track I imagine you'd need to weave the moon and wolf relationship into Jon the wolf and Sam's face as the moon. No ideas on how that might work. I was looking for something like what Harlaw's Book came up with to tie it into Sam. The Giant vs. King shadows (which I love all the more for having completely missed it myself) and the interior/exterior light source contrast is really good stuff.

How is Sam a giant or a figure worthy of a projected shadow that seems to symbolize power? He'll kill an Other but I don't suspect that's it. Nothing specifically tied to this chapter comes to mind for Sam and his shadow. In pondering it only Jon's suggestion that Sam write things down strikes me. History is written by the victors they say and there is certainly a power in that. I could picture an epilogue to the final book with Sam as the old Aemon-like figure serving as maester at Castle Black. Sam as the writer who will shape the impact of these stories on future generations seems a fitting especially with the cyclic nature of current events to the past. Just some random musings, but the projected shadow tells us we should keep our eyes open.

Going back to this, there is also the road not taken in a literal sense but here there is a right and wrong path. Robb goes south and the following chapter sees him acclaimed as King in the North. But we know this is the wrong path. Mormont in this chapter asks if it matters who sits the Iron Throne when the cold winds are rising (compare with the Cold Gods of Craster's daughter-wives), Osha - with her regard for health and safety - has already warned Bran to tell Robb that he should be heading north not south, The Ned in Catelyn I AGOT spoke of going north but was drawn down south, that northern path ties Jon IX together with the Prologue. GRRM is pretty clearly telling us that the resolution in the deep north will be more important than the resolution in the south.

This I think requires us to reassess Jon XIII ADWD. The heart rejoices at Jon chosing Arya over the Oath but we know that (i) she's not there and (ii) it's the wrong way.

Unless the answer is in the crypts. "we've seen the dead rising" Jon sees them still in his dreams with his father's face (or his not-father as you will). Mormont doesn't want to see that again - yet the bones remember while Mormont tells us that the Watch has forgotten. Does this tie in with the (presumed) ancient oath breaking and the breach of the peace between the children of the forest and the first men?

Note too Jon taking us back to Bran I AGOT. The penalty for desertion is death, the reality of The Ned executing the deserter versus the fantasy of Robb accepting him into his army. Life is still a song for Jon. His thinking is not just black and white (was Aemon a coward or brave) but also is still childish - in so far as he denies the reality of his situation to himself. Also Bran seen through jon's eyes - his sense of responsibility, Fat Tom - himself dead in the King's Landing Putsch - again a victim of having gone the wrong way.

Is going the right way simply heading in a geographical direction or does that imply a different kind of journey that involves facing his own dead, his own past, perhaps something fundamental about his role / the Starks / the first men too?

Hmm... my first thoughts on direction were similar to Winterfellian's in recalling Ygritte and how it all depends on where you stand. In Tyrion he went North and his siblings went South and I was always struck by how much the crab meal stood out with regard to the shared aspects of food in Tyrion. It may be the only meal he actually shares in honest friendship before meeting Penny. Not sure if that's enough to attribute meaning to the direction though. Following that line of thought I find myself wondering if it isn't the difference between "real" problems and those we fabricate with all our human pettiness. The Others are a real problem, one that must be struggled with in order to survive mirroring the harshness of Northern life. The South is more luxury focused with more time to indulge. Courtly intrigue is born of the avarice that thrives when people are separated from the struggle for survival? Winter is coming. Not sure how much I buy into that (even though I just wrote it) but that's where thinking about Lummel's direction musings took me.

Jon still believes in stories but here he chose against the path of his favorite hero, the Young Dragon. It is Robb who chose that path becoming the Young Wolf and finding the same fame and a similar fate. In this regard Robb seems closer to Lyanna (or Brandon maybe) with an impulsive marriage and an early grave while Jon is much closer to the more reflective Ned. And that brings us back to fatherhood and what defines it beyond sperm donation. The Wall truly does become a family to a degree. Yoren rushes to Ned because the bond with Benjen makes them brothers in his mind. The Old Bear is becoming a foster father to him, which along with the sword, evokes guilt at his emotionally replacing Ned. I've always liked how Jon is helping Mormont cope with the loss of his son while Mormont helps him through the loss of his father. It is a touching and true to life depiction of how people bond to help each other through loss. It is accurate too that the far younger Jon has no idea how important he truly is to the old man. Jon is the prodigal son who returned to help ease the pain of the one who didn't.

[Mladen]

Bummer

Is it me or this only happen to yours, butterbumps! and Ragnorak's threads? :ohwell:

No, all Reread threads are moved. I noticed Reread Arya thread was also moved, and Angalin told Walrus that we should open Davos Reread here...

There's nothing wrong the moon/wolf imagery aspects, just that this reference seemed particularly focused on Sam which struck me as odd and probably meaningful. Following that track I imagine you'd need to weave the moon and wolf relationship into Jon the wolf and Sam's face as the moon. No ideas on how that might work. I was looking for something like what Harlaw's Book came up with to tie it into Sam. The Giant vs. King shadows (which I love all the more for having completely missed it myself) and the interior/exterior light source contrast is really good stuff.

Yes, you are right. It`s just that this chapter had so many moon imagery in it that it is difficult to ignore. It was like Jon`s dance on moonlight, like the wolves do. As for Sam as the moon, who knows, maybe that symbolize Jon will `howl` for him, like wolves howl on moon. Or it symbolizes some special connection between the two of them.

[Lummel]

...However I was trying to look at it from Jon's perspective...

oh yes, I agree with you there, from his perspective it is a different story :)

...How is Sam a giant or a figure worthy of a projected shadow that seems to symbolize power?...

Shadows. What does Varys say about power? A shadow on the wall. I can imagine the likes of Sam or Tyrion becoming powerful but in a behind the scene kind of way - but on the other hand - forget all this foreshadowing, lets visual the scene instead. Jon is saddling the horse, door opens the moon shines in Sam's shadow lies across the floor - if you had a scene from a crime show in which the police caught the criminal red hand handed wouldn't it look like that? The moon is like a search light, the shadow like the long arm of the law. The moon is white, Sam the voice of reason.

If we take an enviromental reading of ASOIAF the cruical problem is the seasonal imbalance, the threat to human life is not a sword but hunger, the politics of the iron throne is the froth - there will be a king or queen on the throne and they too will die, the ability of all humans to be able to live in Westeros however seems to be tied up in the business that is taking place north of the wall.

...Yes, you are right. It`s just that this chapter had so many moon imagery in it that it is difficult to ignore. It was like Jon`s dance on moonlight, like the wolves do. As for Sam as the moon, who knows, maybe that symbolize Jon will `howl` for him, like wolves howl on moon. Or it symbolizes some special connection between the two of them.

Have you read The Mystery Knight? ;)

[Mladen]

Have you read The Mystery Knight? ;)

Yes, about a year ago... It seems to me I am missing a point.

[Lummel]

Yes, about a year ago... It seems to me I am missing a point.

howl at the moon together is used in a highly specific way there - are you, by any chance, a fan of the theory that has Sam marrying Jon? ;)

[Mladen]

howl at the moon together is used in a highly specific way there - are you, by any chance, a fan of the theory that has Sam marrying Jon? ;)

Not quite. But I found the refference you mentioned. I have to admit I need a reread of the novel.

[Lady of Long Lake]

I noticed some oddness with the raven whilst reading that chapter last night. It used some unusual motions and had exclamation points after saying certain words. I read back chapters and found instances where the raven uses "!" with Jon and also when the raven bobs his head echoing Jon. In all the prior chapters, the raven only does those two things with Jon! It never uses exclamation points and bobs his head when he echoes Jeor.( At least up to this point in AGOT)

In Jon 9,the raven says," Die!" in response to Jon saying," I'm not afraid to die" to the Old Bear, when the old Bear confronts him about his moonlight ride. Jon did not say his line with an exclamation point here. I went back and the other two times the raven echoed Jon with an exclamation point was in these prior Jon chapters:

Jon 3," "Live! Live!" That was in response to Jon saying," My brother is going to live" when he read the letter from WF saying that Bran woke up. Jon did not say his line with an exclamation point so the raven added it again here.

Jon 7 the raven said," Burn! Burn! Burn! Burn!" during the wight fight in Jeor's tower. It was not echoing Jon or Jeor though. It was making up it's own words in this rare scene.

In Jon 9, the raven bobs his head and says," Ben Jen. Ben Jen" in response to Jeor saying they've lost many men besides Benjen out beyond the Wall.

The only other time prior to this chapter the raven bobs his head was when it was saying in Jon8, " Father" when Jon asked if there was word from his father.

Another anomaly is the raven started echoing a word in the middle of sentences at the end of Jon 9. The three instances were:

"Ben Jen, Ben Jen" ( why does it separate the syllables? For emphasis? It can say two syllable words smoothly in other instances)

"war, war war war"

Why?Why?Why?Why?" when LC said ," Your father sent you to us. Why, who can say?"

I can't help but wonder if there's more to this raven! It got very excited about Bran living and Jon saying he would die. It bobbed it's head with "Father"- referring to Ned and when saying "Ben jen". That's some very Stark-centric peculiarities IMO. The raven is special and we all know what it does in future books. I wonder if the raven is being warged by someone, even at this early point in the story. If it's Benjen warging the bird, it would explain why he said his name so staccato and weird. He wants them to know it's him. Or perhaps it's Bloodraven. He also would be very connected to Jon ( as his relation).