Will dany and tyrion join forces?

[Night's_King]

Dany can forgive people. She forgave Barristan. She is not blind to good council. For example, she took Jorah's advice to pretend she couldn't understand the language of the Astapori slavers. As far as I can see, the term "Usurper's dogs" is used for individual men, not for families. Tryion did not help Robert with his rebellion. There is no proof that Daenerys, Jorah, or even Viserys ever had a never-to-be- changed blanket hatred for any family. The queen has a belief in group punishment. So does just about everyone else in ASoIaF. However, she doesn't have to punish people just because they belong to a certain group. She is, for instance, unwilling to kill the children of the Meereenese nobles, or even to threaten to kill them.

What about crucifying 163 people without trial? What about the torture of the winesellers daughters?

[SeanF]

I'd kind of like to see that happen.

It would be an amusing fate for Cersei, if she ended up as a gongfermour in King's Landing. For the first time in her life, she'd be doing an honest day's work.

[TheSnape]

And where does he get the money? And you think that they all believe that Dany will win the throne?

Where did Tyrion have the money to promise Brown Ben Plumm and his mercenaries all that he promised them?

Knowing Tyrion, he will arrive with Dany on the shores of Casterly Rock. He will first try and promise the poorer lords of the Westerlands (or those who don't have access to Gold mines)lots of money, perhaps showing them Dany's dragons, spreading rumours Shae killed Tywin, he didn't kill Joffrey etc. He will use Dany's armies to conquer those who don't support him. Once he has support amongst them and troops from them, he can try to sack Golden Tooth (which has a gold mine). He will not just have the troops he has accumulated from the lands of the lords he's already conqured/bought off/etc. but also Dany's armies and dragons (which, as long as they don't burn the gold mine, will be invaluable). Dany will be more than willing to let him use as much of her armies as he wants, as any victory for him is a victory for her. Once he has Golden Tooth, he has access to a lot of money, and will be able to either pay off or conquer the remaining bannermen of the Westerlands.

Lastly, Tyrion and Dany (using all the troops he's accumulated so far) will be able to take Casterly Rock last of all, taking Daven Lannister hostage etc. and then Dany can use CR as a base to conquer the rest of Westeros, meanwhile, Tyrion will be WotW and Lord of CR.

He will be able to give all the lordships he promised people, as he conquers the Westerlands (as there will probably be lords who oppose him, meaning they can easily be replaced with people loyal to him).

[Kuma]

She will say "your brother killed my father, prepare to diee. Fiiiiiireee and bloood" after that she will get monologue with herself and keeps Tyrion as advisor.

[Woman of War]

Paradoxically, failure to poison the wells outside Meereen may have resulted in worse suffering for the besiegers.

Had the wells been poisoned, they might have been obliged to withdraw from the city, but with little loss. By remaining in the vicinity of the city, they've suffered huge casualties from the Pale Mare.

I wonder if the Meereenese have some kind of religious taboo against well-poisoning, because it would seem an obvious tactic, otherwise.

Ooops, I had never seen it that way. Grisly, but from a utilitarian viewpoint you are right.

The fact that he fantasises about raping and murdering his sister, and sticking Jaime's head on the end of a pole suggests quite a powerful revenge mission.

Admittedly, as Lummel said, he's open to other ideas. He thinks Cersei would make an excellent dung-collecting slave in Volantis.

No, his fantasies shows that he is extremely frustrated and angry. Those fantasies are just as valid as fantasizing about burning your neighbour's car because it is in your gararage entrance for the hundredth time. Oh, it is sooo good to picture his face....... But you will never do it. I have dreamt about five hundred times to throw my sons' computer out of the window. Did I? Guess!

No, seriously. It does not count what we fantasize about, it counts what we do or not. Actually having revenge fantasies is an expression of helpless fury, letting out steam, it may even prevent violent action. Fortunately most don't act on it. While within "normal" family dynamics it would be really disturbed to fantasize the way Tyrion did. But then what was done to him during his life goes far beyond any family quarrels.

[Roxy Carmichael]

I'm pretty curious to see how this all plays out too. I mean, Tyrion went aaaall the way to Slaver's Bay, so I can't really imagine a scenario where he doesn't join Team Dany. However, I don't think he'll be able to do it as a Lannister. Think about it: His brother killed her father. His sister married THE USURPER!! His father betrayed her father and ordered the deaths of Elia and the kids. There's just no plausible way Tyrion can show up, reveal himself as a Lannister to her, and she doesn't go all FIRE AND BLOOD. Not to mention he's rollin' with Jorah and Ben, guys Dany feels betrayed by.

Even if Tyrion keeps his identity hidden or his plot armor makes it okay, he has a big mouth and Dany has a prickly personality. I think there would be plenty of opportunities for him to piss her off.

[Heir to Winterfell]

Tyrion is bringing the most important assets that Dany is missing, information.

Tyrion is the only one outside the GC that knows about fAegon and JonCon. This info is invaluable. He will also tell Dany the unadulterated and unvarnished truth about her family, making her question Jorah and Barristan's counsel. Also, his knowledge of dragon lore is second to no one in GRRTH, he will provide insights on how to control the dragons and potentially tame on enough to mount himself.

Ideologically fAegon and Dany can both help Tyrion fulfill his desire for CR, he just needs to pick the winning side.

[MegaAIP]

I think people give Tyrion way too much credit on his dragon knowlege. My 10 year old knows just about everything there is to know about dinosaurs, Allosaurus is his favorite and he could spout off 100 random facts about where they lived, ate, etc...

But I am pretty sure if there was a real life allosaurus he would not know what to do except run. Even look at big cats, you can teach a tiger to do tricks sure but they have turned on the trainers many many times.

[Parwan]

What about crucifying 163 people without trial? What about the torture of the winesellers daughters?

Well, what about these things? I see no need to change what I said before. I didn't deny that Dany punishes groups of people. I affirmed this:

"The queen has a belief in group punishment. So does just about everyone else in ASoIaF. However, she doesn't have to punish people just because they belong to a certain group."

I stand by that. Dany can and does refrain from group-based punishment. I gave a good example in my previous post. There are other examples I could give.

When one reads a lot of posts on these forums, one encounters certain leitmotifs. A recurrent theme for SeanF is the development of total war in Westeros. One of my main themes is "Dany fits in." She is not an outlier. Indeed, over the course of the story, she has more or less become "one of the boys." Torture in Martin's world is like apple pie in America. It's just part of the deal. The same goes for communal or group-based punishment. Joe What's-His-House is taken as a hostage. Joe's uncle steps out of line. Joe himself didn't do anything bad, but his head winds up on a spike on a castle wall.

Daenerys Targaryen in some ways is worse than the average leader in ASoIaF, in some ways better.

[A Man Must Have a Name]

Hey guys, longtime lurker, first time post. Some really insightful folks this message board.

When Tyrion and Dany meet, I think Dany will be ready to finish what Ser Mander started on the Blackwater, but Ser Barristan will vouch for Tyrion. Dany hates the Lannisters in general, but especially Tywin (who betrayed her family), Cersei (who married her family's usurper), and Jamie (who killed her father). Tyrion seems like an afterthought to Dany. Tyri-who?

I think Tyrion wil tell Dany that her quest for vengeance is halfway done. Tyrion betrayed is father, as his father betrayed Dany. The usurping Baratheon line is dead or in retreat (the latter in good part thanks to Tyrion). Tyrion's doing all Dany's work for her. Even the hand Jamie used to kill Dany's father is gone, though that one isn't on Tyrion.

I think Barristan will confirm to Dany that Tyrion can't be a Lannister agent there to harm Dany, because Tywin and Cersei hate Tyrion and would never trust him to do so, or have the confidence in his abilities either.

Dany will want to know Tyrion's motive, and he will say the truth--his father denied Tyrion his rightful claim to Casterly Rock, and Dany is Tyrion's best hope of claiming the Rock. That said, I think when Dany asks Tyrion why he's come, he will have some sexual quip. He's always pushing the envelope.

I also think that Tyrion will quickly prove his utility to Dany by delivering the Windblown, quickly sizing up the politics in Meereen, and possibly determining who the Son of the Harpy is.

All this said, I don't see Tyrion ever riding a dragon, at least not without Dany. Yeah, it'd be great, but as Tyrion told Jon Snow so many books ago, Tyrion's mind is his mealticket, not his sword (paraphrased, clearly).

Speaking of, I'll close by saying that I think Tyrion will be instrumental in bringing Dany to the Wall and Jon Snow, who Tyrion already knows. Why else include Tyrion's positive interaction with Jon Snow, and his kindness to Bran (who won't be far) too, back in Game of Thrones?

Tyrion for Hand of the Queen. I'm already making bumper stickers.

A man has said.

[Castellan]

... No, his fantasies shows that he is extremely frustrated and angry. Those fantasies are just as valid as fantasizing about burning your neighbour's car because it is in your gararage entrance for the hundredth time. Oh, it is sooo good to picture his face....... But you will never do it. I have dreamt about five hundred times to throw my sons' computer out of the window. Did I? Guess!

No, seriously. It does not count what we fantasize about, it counts what we do or not. Actually having revenge fantasies is an expression of helpless fury, letting out steam, it may even prevent violent action. Fortunately most don't act on it. While within "normal" family dynamics it would be really disturbed to fantasize the way Tyrion did. But then what was done to him during his life goes far beyond any family quarrels.

I can't remember if we have even had access to his real fantasies in the text. I know he claimed to the widow of the waterfront that he wanted to rape and murder his sister, but he also consciously gave her his 'ugly dwarf leer' while doing so, so he could just be offering a false assurance that has turned his cloak. On the other hand he did behave repulsively with the slave prostitute who was revolted and terrified by him, which he would not have done previously (and I have only just twigged she had red hair like Sansa who he refrained from forcing). I thick he has definitely had it with Cersei because, after all, she nearly got him executed, it doesn't mean he lives only for violent revenge on her. I think he wants power in Westeros and to be head of his house, quite rational goals.

[SeanF]

Well, what about these things? I see no need to change what I said before. I didn't deny that Dany punishes groups of people. I affirmed this:

"The queen has a belief in group punishment. So does just about everyone else in ASoIaF. However, she doesn't have to punish people just because they belong to a certain group."

I stand by that. Dany can and does refrain from group-based punishment. I gave a good example in my previous post. There are other examples I could give.

When one reads a lot of posts on these forums, one encounters certain leitmotifs. A recurrent theme for SeanF is the development of total war in Westeros. One of my main themes is "Dany fits in." She is not an outlier. Indeed, over the course of the story, she has more or less become "one of the boys." Torture in Martin's world is like apple pie in America. It's just part of the deal. The same goes for communal or group-based punishment. Joe What's-His-House is taken as a hostage. Joe's

uncle steps out of line. Joe himself didn't do anything bad, but his head winds up on a spike on a castle wall.

Daenerys Targaryen in some ways is worse than the average leader in ASoIaF, in some ways better.

The idea that punishment should depend on individual behaviour, rather than group behaviour, is a recent one, and certainly not a belief that's universal, even in Western countries. At moments of stress (like WWII) even pretty liberal governments revert to collective punishment of their enemies.

So, while Dany does agonise about some of her actions (such as the crucifixions) she loses no sleep over the Sack of Meereen, in which far more people died, or were raped, and plundered. The city refused to surrender, and therefore, according to the conventions of the time, the inhabitants deserved the punishment they got.

[songofvalyria]

I think Dany needs Tyrion because besides Jorah (and Jorah's family was noble but not highly influential) she doesn't have any information about the current political state of affairs in Westeros. She's going to need to know how to pick her allies, how to fob off the Lannisters who plotted to take the throne for 25 years, understand that Robert wasn't particularly popular... If she conquers Westeros she's going to have to figure out who her wardens should be etc. Tyrion knows all that stuff inside and out. He knows who's nuts (Lysa), who's a back stabber (Littlefinger, Roose Bolton, Walder Frey), who's a megalomaniac (well Tywin's dead now but there's plenty others) etc. Not even Ned had a grasp on that stuff and its life or death stuff.

[Parwan]

The idea that punishment should depend on individual behaviour, rather than group behaviour, is a recent one, and certainly not a belief that's universal, even in Western countries. At moments of stress (like WWII) even pretty liberal governments revert to collective punishment of their enemies.

So, while Dany does agonise about some of her actions (such as the crucifixions) she loses no sleep over the Sack of Meereen, in which far more people died, or were raped, and plundered. The city refused to surrender, and therefore, according to the conventions of the time, the inhabitants deserved the punishment they got.

It's not just a matter of who deserves what. Often that isn't even the major consideration. There is a lot of "that's the way it goes" or "I believe that's called war" or " how else does one pay sellswords?" One of the many places in the text that shows this is Harry Strickland's speech in ADwD. He is talking to the Golden Company and Aegon's people. He wonders why Dany hasn't moved west:

"Sack Meereen, aye, why not? I would have done the same in her place. The slaver cities reek of gold, and conquest requires coin. But why linger?"

No one objects to Harry's analysis. Sacking is accepted as standard operating procedure. If anything, Dany's moves to limit the sacking of the city show her to be at least a bit on the gentler side of this SOP. Note that I'm not arguing here that she does a good job in Meereen, or that she'd make a good ruler of the seven kingdoms. More importantly for this thread, there is no reason to believe Tyrion will make any effort to dissuade her or her followers from busting things up in the west. He may have been exaggerating the "rape and kill my sister" business. He doesn't object to revenge, however, and I see no reason to think he would advise the placing of strong restraints on fighters who take a city by force.

[unSonofStannis]

Stannis has sent Massey to Braavos to hire some sellswords so Im hoping since Tyrion is now a sellsword with the Second Sons that he somehow hears about this maybe sometime after the slaughter of the battle and realizes Dany isnt there and maybe even gets a dragon or two and heads to Braavos and gets hired because lets admit, Stannis/Tyrion/Jon scenes would be hilarious.

[A Man Must Have a Name]

Parwan, I'll admit upfront I'm a Tyrion loyalist, so I'm probably biased here. Tyrion is definitely an advocate for revenge, as a concept. He also understands the theater of warfare and ruling, and that shows of force are necessary sometimes, especially when consolidating power.

But Tyrion has demonstrated an awareness of how victors' brutalities, while serving a short-term purpose, can obstruct long-term governing.

First, Tyrion tells Tywin that the North will never forget the Red Wedding. And it's not just the death of Robb and all the others, it's the manner of the deaths. Not nobly on the battlefield, as Rhaegar was afforded. For all of Robert's flaws, no one except maybe Viserys/Dany decies the manner in which he killed Rhaegar. Tywin responds that he hopes the North does remember, but Tyrion seems to know better.

Second, Tyrion seems to understand that the manner in which the Lannisters took King's Landing in Robert's Rebellion, the pillaging and raping and murdering, have stained the Lannister name ever since. So I think he'd counsel avoiding a repeat--but that means he'd likely see the utility of an army of discipled eunuchs.

[unSonofStannis]

Parwan, I'll admit upfront I'm a Tyrion loyalist, so I'm probably biased here. Tyrion is definitely an advocate for revenge, as a concept. He also understands the theater of warfare and ruling, and that shows of force are necessary sometimes, especially when consolidating power.

But Tyrion has demonstrated an awareness of how victors' brutalities, while serving a short-term purpose, can obstruct long-term governing.

First, Tyrion tells Tywin that the North will never forget the Red Wedding. And it's not just the death of Robb and all the others, it's the manner of the deaths. Not nobly on the battlefield, as Rhaegar was afforded. For all of Robert's flaws, no one except maybe Viserys/Dany decies the manner in which he killed Rhaegar. Tywin responds that he hopes the North does remember, but Tyrion seems to know better.

Second, Tyrion seems to understand that the manner in which the Lannisters took King's Landing in Robert's Rebellion, the pillaging and raping and murdering, have stained the Lannister name ever since. So I think he'd counsel avoiding a repeat--but that means he'd likely see the utility of an army of discipled eunuchs.

Or hed see the utility of an army commanded by Stannis who would not allow/punish such crimes during a sack.

[Hoyti_Von_Totiy]

Join forces?

Danny forces: 8000 Unsullied, 3 dragons, and a potential for a new khalasar

Tyrions forces: non existant

[unSonofStannis]

Join forces?

Danny forces: 8000 Unsullied, 3 dragons, and a potential for a new khalasar

Tyrions forces: non existant

I think he means Tyrion as an advisor to Dan, plus he does technically have an army because hes a Second Son now.

[SeanF]

Parwan, I'll admit upfront I'm a Tyrion loyalist, so I'm probably biased here. Tyrion is definitely an advocate for revenge, as a concept. He also understands the theater of warfare and ruling, and that shows of force are necessary sometimes, especially when consolidating power.

But Tyrion has demonstrated an awareness of how victors' brutalities, while serving a short-term purpose, can obstruct long-term governing.

First, Tyrion tells Tywin that the North will never forget the Red Wedding. And it's not just the death of Robb and all the others, it's the manner of the deaths. Not nobly on the battlefield, as Rhaegar was afforded. For all of Robert's flaws, no one except maybe Viserys/Dany decies the manner in which he killed Rhaegar. Tywin responds that he hopes the North does remember, but Tyrion seems to know better.

Second, Tyrion seems to understand that the manner in which the Lannisters took King's Landing in Robert's Rebellion, the pillaging and raping and murdering, have

stained the Lannister name ever since. So I think he'd counsel avoiding a repeat--but that means he'd likely see the utility of an army of discipled eunuchs.

Sacking a city that offers no resistance is seen as very bad form in Westeros; likewise breaching guest-right. Some behaviours are considered so dishonourable as to be counter-productive.